Simulacrum Questions


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hey guys, I am about to run a high level campaign (coliseum Morpheuon) and I am getting some questions from my players!

So, one of them wants to make a simulacrum of a Pit Fiend. Since they get wish, they can wish for material components for another pit fiend, since it costs 10k gold to make one.

Now, does the simulacrum pit fiend actually have wish? I am wondering how the hit dice affect their spell like abilities and whatnot


Dot

Edit: By the way, the simulacrum is supposed to have spell like abilities appropriate to his new HD. I don't think that a lot of GMs will allow the wish ability in a 10 HD Pit Fiend.


The spell doesn't actually say that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
CWheezy wrote:
The spell doesn't actually say that.

Heh, this reminds me when we played a 3.x game with 3rd party materials under a new DM. My friend played a Lich with a combo that allowed him to craft magic items for free. We quickly got kitted out with the best of everything, leveled up multiple times, and I coup de graced a dragon! The campaign ended after the first session, but hey, I'll never forget it either.

Anyway. If you don't think that special abilities include spell-like abilities, and you think that granting your players infinite free wishes is a good idea, then you have the authority to play as loose with your game's balance as you like.

But sometimes it's okay so say "No, on grounds of 'No'."


CWheezy wrote:
The spell doesn't actually say that.

In a way, it does: "it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)".

So if you think having Wish on tap is something a 10HD Devil should have, then the Simulacrum gets its Wish. But considering a 10HD Devil should be something like the Bone Devil, I think there should be no Wish. Not even a limited one.


I would say no to having the wish spell but hey its your game.


Yes, I am disallowing it, but I am wondering if this is just another wizard infinite, since the easier way would just be to make efreetis and have way more wishes per day, or true name and efreetis for way more, etc.

Alo, it would be nice is simulacrum is more clearly written, or for monster progression to be spelled out.

@VRMH Yeah it "should" be, but it is a pit fiend. When does a pit fiend get wish? 15 hd? 13? It isn't really clear imo


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The game developers have discussed this at length. The general consensus is that it can't/shouldn't be done.

James Jacobs wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

A question about simulacrons.

In another thread a guys suggested making a simulacron of a adamantine golem to get a weaker adamantine golem almost fro free.
I think that allowing the creation of simulacrons of non living creatures is a bit over the top (I recognize that it is RAW).
Your opinion?

First thing to keep in mind about simulacrum: The GM gets to decide what a PC can or can't make. I know it doesn't say so in the spell itself... but it's true. Simulacrum does NOT give the player the freedom to "shop" through the bestiaries for the best subject.

In my games, I slap two additional limitations onto the spell.

1) You can't make a simulacrum of something that's not alive. Constructs, undead, and other simulacrums are off the list.

2) In order to make a simulacrum, you need a physical portion of the creature you wish to make; a finger, a lock of hair, a patch of skin, a bone, whatever. Once you use that object, it's consumed, and as long as that simulacrum exists, you can't use that specific creature's body parts to make a second simulacrum.

I'll be super-crusading to get those two qualifiers built into the spell some day... if not as errata (unlikely, since that would increase the spell's footprint in the game and cause significant layout nightmares), but as FAQ clarifications or even as inclusions in some new edition of the game we might or might not do in the future.

James Jacobs wrote:
Tels wrote:

So I'm working on a plot-line for a future campaign using a BBEG Wizard that has secured alliances with creatures of the Elemental Plane of Earth to have plentiful access to rubies, so he can create a Simulacrum army of a captured Ghaele Azata.

Simulacrum states that the Simulacrums should have half their hit-die in abilities. This can work great for regular classed characters, but creatures like the Ghaele have many spell-like abilities. Now, I think that, as half hit-die, they should lose the 3/day and 1/day SPA and reduce their spell casting down to 3rd level spells and the appropriate loss of feats, skills etc.

Is there anything else I should reduce? Like some of the At-Will SPAs or anything? I already plan on reducing the attack, damage and AC down as appropriate for their CRs.

Cool! Simulacrum's one of my favorite spells, if only for the neat storylines it helps create. That said, simulacrum is also one of those spells (another is reincarnate) that gets better the more a GM starts delving into the repercussions and limitations and uses of the spell—it's really a better spell for NPCs than PCs for this reason.

When I stat up simulacrum versions of a monster, I generally do NOT reduce the spell-like abilities and stuff... but in the end, kind of rebuild the monster as appropriate for something of its rebuilt hp as it works out on Table 1–1 of the Bestiary. This means that some monsters are more potent than others when you simulacrum them, and if a monster is kinda broken when you make a simulacrum (such as would happen with a glabrezu or a noble genie or another creature that has wish as a spell-like ability) I do remove the broken aspects in an ad-hoc manner.


Efreeti have 10 HD and they can grant wishes. Not saying that you should allow it but that's an example of a 10 HD creature that can cast wish.


A meta rule I always use:
There is no reproducible way to obtain a wish for less than 25K gp. Period, end of story. Due to this metarule, any pit fiend or other wish-granting creature simulacrums always lose the wish ability. I suggest limiting the simulacrum spell further---it is a tremendously powerful spell, especially in terms of the narrative power and reach that it gives you. I've limited the spell in my games so that you can not create a simulacrum of anything with more hit dice or levels than yourself (per RAW you can go 2x your level). So the most powerful thing you can often get is a mini-you with half your level. Frankly that's plenty powerful for a 7th level spell and pretty much every caster who can get it gets it pretty much as soon as they can learn it. It's telling when you nerf the devil out of a spell and people STILL queue up to learn it.


A wizard casting simulacrum is a lot like a wizard making a magic item. Sometimes it's obvious and straightforward (making a simulacrum of a human with levels in only one class is easy, just like making a wand of magic missile), sometimes it isn't.


This spell should have been written better. It is now basically a GM Fiat spell, and is open to abuse if read literally.


CWheezy wrote:
I am wondering how the hit dice affect their spell like abilities and whatnot

I would suggest the following house rule:

All spells with costly material components require them directly when being cast via any means, including scroll (reduce the price on the creation, but require it at the reading), wand (ditto), staff (ditto), Spell-like ability, etc..

This will head off a lot of these kinds of abuse.

-James


CWheezy wrote:
The spell doesn't actually say that.

It does: "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). "

It is not appropriate for a 10HD Faux Pit Fiend to be able to cast wish, or even limited wish.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Simulacrum Questions All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.