acrobatics for free action to stand?


Rules Questions


I thought I read some where that you can use acrobatics for a free action to stand up from a prone position? I'm unable to find this rule, so maybe it doesn't exist?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You're thinking of the Stand Up Rogue talent.


There have been various ways of dealing with the prone condition without provoking attacks of opportunity since the start of 3.0, but they've all been feats, class/prestige class abilities, or house rules.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Monkplayer wrote:
I thought I read some where that you can use acrobatics for a free action to stand up from a prone position? I'm unable to find this rule, so maybe it doesn't exist?

You might be remembering Free Stand (a DC 35 tumble check to stand as a free action) from Complete Adventurer. But its not open content, thus not reprinted in Pathfinder.


I'm familiar with the rogue talent, si I'm asking specifically about an acrobatics check. Ah, Complete Adventurer DC 35 check. I bet that's it.


So the penalty is you still provoke but id successful it's a free action. What happens though if you fail the Acrobatic check I wonder? The 3.5 rule doesn't answer that.


Monkplayer wrote:
So the penalty is you still provoke but id successful it's a free action. What happens though if you fail the Acrobatic check I wonder? The 3.5 rule doesn't answer that.

Well, you failed the check, so you didn't stand up as a free action. So, you're still just laying there, and will probably have to stand up in the normal way.


That makes sense but now you failed the free action attempt to stand, so does this cost a move action and provokes an AOO AND your still laying prone? So in essence you still have a second move action to stand up and get another AOO or attempt a second free action?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Monkplayer wrote:
That makes sense but now you failed the free action attempt to stand, so does this cost a move action and provokes an AOO AND your still laying prone? So in essence you still have a second move action to stand up and get another AOO or attempt a second free action?

It's like the Fast Dismount maneuver. In order to make these checks, you have to have a move action available. If you make the check, you get them as free actions, if you fail, they wind up costing you your move.

Liberty's Edge

May be more consistent if that bothers you to model it on Fast Mount; you must have the move action available, and it costs the move if you fail the check. Utter house rule country here.


The way i read it, is that unless you have special abilities that monks and rogues have the potential of getting, you can't stand as a free action that doesn't provoke using acrobatics. What you can do is use acrobatics to "roll" backwards (5' only)away from your opponent as a move action (DC= Enemy's CMD) and stand up as a second move action, thus out of reach and unable to be struck by the enemy.

I read that in the core book somewhere...just can't remember where.

Scarab Sages

I think it would go something like this:

Player 1 says "laying prone, I attempt a DC 35 Acrobatics check as a free action to stand up....."

GM says "That provokes the AoO from BBEG1, who takes a swing and....Nat 1, he misses, go ahead"

Player 1 Rolls dice

Player 1 says "13, add my +18 Acrobatics skill....31, well phooey."

GM says "You are still laying prone...would you like to use a Move Action to stand up in the proper way? It will provoke the AoO....?"

****EDIT****

That is, provided you can use the Free Stand from Complete Adventurer from back in 3.5 or wherever that came from.


Monkplayer wrote:
That makes sense but now you failed the free action attempt to stand, so does this cost a move action and provokes an AOO AND your still laying prone? So in essence you still have a second move action to stand up and get another AOO or attempt a second free action?

I would assume not. You just don't do anything. I assume that rule says 'once per round' or somesuch. You'd just need to spend your move action to stand up normally, still having a swift and a standard.


Here is 3.5 D&D skill:

Free Stand: With a DC 35 Tumble check result, you can stand up from prone as a free action (instead of as a move action). This use of the skill still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

Here is Fast Dismount:

Fast Mount or Dismount

You can mount or dismount as a free action with a DC 20 Ride check. If you fail the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action instead. You can't attempt a fast mount or fast dismount unless you can perform the mount or dismount as a move action in the current round.

So, with the Acrobatics Check then how about this:

10 or less on the roll (25 or less) still prone and it provokes just like a successful check provokes but not prone and a free action. Of course there is the chance to take your second move action to try the free action again or stand normally if your skill check is 25 or less.

Sczarni

Bomanz wrote:

I think it would go something like this:

Player 1 says "laying prone, I attempt a DC 35 Acrobatics check as a free action to stand up....."

GM says "That provokes the AoO from BBEG1, who takes a swing and....Nat 1, he misses, go ahead"

Player 1 Rolls dice

Player 1 says "13, add my +18 Acrobatics skill....31, well phooey."

GM says "You are still laying prone...would you like to use a Move Action to stand up in the proper way? It will provoke the AoO....?"

****EDIT****

That is, provided you can use the Free Stand from Complete Adventurer from back in 3.5 or wherever that came from.

Why would BBEG1 get a SECOND AoO?

If you fail the DC35 check you didn't fail to stand, you failed to do it quickly. Unless there is another reason why you would have to roll to stand, the failure turns a free action into a move action. Either way it is still only ONE action, and BBEG1 only gets one AoO.

Bad thing is if you do fail, then BBEG1 will get a second AoO, assuming he has the ability to do more than one per round. You take a second action when you try to move away, and since you can't do a double move withdraw from combat that would allow you to avoid the second AoO, you take another AoO for moving out of the space threatened by BBEG1.

So the Free Stand, or any equivalent Feat or ability would get you to your feet fast enough to stand and withdraw and only take one AoO in the process, but a normal stand from prone and withdraw might result in a two AoO's, one for standing and one for moving, and then only if the BBEG can do multiple AoOs.


Arni
I agree with your reasoning of the character not getting 2AOOs, however on the other hand, why wouldn't every player ever time try to do a 35 acrobatics check for a Free Stand? If you fail your acrobatics check your still standing anyway. Shouldn't there be some minor penalty if you fail besides a move penalty? You will incur the AOO and the move when standing anyway and the AOO with Free Stand.


I'd think that a failed kip-up shouldn't just resolve itself into getting up normally, without missing a beat.

The way I see it, the bumbling acrobat tries a kip-up but doesn't make it to his feet, instead flopping like a fish on dry land, provoking AoOs from anyone who can refrain from laughing at the spectacle. Then he can get up like a normal person, and provoke again.


3E had options for the tumble skill both in C.Adventurer and in the Epic Level Handbook, possibly other places, too. There were also skill tricks, which cost 2 skill points each and could be used once/encounter. There were two that let you stand from prone w/o provoking. One as a swift, and one as an immediate.
Further, 3E had the uber-cheap Boots of Agile Leaping in Magic Item Compendium. 600 gp, they let you use dex instead of str for jumping (something PF has done by default anyway) and stand from prone w/o provoking and do so as a swift (note, you can still stand as a move w/o provoking, too) if you had 5 ranks in balance (which in 3E, you could have by level 2).

In PF, there's that Rogue talent, there's Monkey Style, there's Ki Stand... It's more costly to get in PF, basically. Will cost you at least one feat or class feature.

Forseti wrote:

I'd think that a failed kip-up shouldn't just resolve itself into getting up normally, without missing a beat.

The way I see it, the bumbling acrobat tries a kip-up but doesn't make it to his feet, instead flopping like a fish on dry land, provoking AoOs from anyone who can refrain from laughing at the spectacle. Then he can get up like a normal person, and provoke again.

And thankfully you don't get to write the rules.


StreamOfTheSky
Wow! You know 3E well with all the recommendations on how to get up from prone without an AOO.

In regards to PF I'm asking only using an Acrobatics check as my players (which you wouldn't know) don't have Ki or Monkey Style.

FYI, I hope Forseti doesn't object to your comment about the rules. It seemed harsh to me.


He wants to ridiculously punish people for trying to kip up from being prone, despite them having to invest resources to do it and/or win a check to do so, and he thinks they should also waste that action and take an additional AoO on top of the action and AoO for standing up the normal way afterwards.

I am truly glad he does not write the rules.

*shrug*

Teleportation, like the 1st level Teleport (Conjuror) Wizard's swift action ability, might also work. I have always argued that you should have to teleport in with the same position/condition you were in when you left, but a lot of DMs seem to let teleport = get out of prone free card. The sudden shift ability is Su, so if the DM did allow it to work, it would not provoke an AoO, either (not that casting defensively is so hard, anyway).


the 3E check is pretty clear:

"With a DC 35 Tumble check result, you can stand up from prone as a free action (instead of as a move action). This use of the skill still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal."

that means:

you try as a free action instead of move. You provoke attacks (as normal).

if you fail, you don't stand up.

You may retry as many times as your GM permits you to do free actions.

Each and every try, "provokes attacks of opportunity as normal".

OR, you can use your move action and have a 100% chance.

Pathfinder has much more limited options sure, BUT, in pathfinder you have to spend 3 feats to make AoO on trip. In dnd with just 2, you take a FREE attack on a successful trip (you dont even waste your AoO), so keep that in mind if you want to allow such a use of acrobatics in pathfinder.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

He wants to ridiculously punish people for trying to kip up from being prone, despite them having to invest resources to do it and/or win a check to do so, and he thinks they should also waste that action and take an additional AoO on top of the action and AoO for standing up the normal way afterwards.

I am truly glad he does not write the rules.

Punishing people for failing checks is too harsh now, even though the rules that govern them clearly imply punishment? (cf. shroudb's post above mine). And why on earth should an action culminating in a failed check not be a wasted one?

I'm truly glad I don't have to deal with you anywhere other than on a forum.


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Since this is the Rules Questions forum and not the Houserules forum, maybe we should get back to the actual Pathfinder rules.

We have the two rules we need to know, right:
1. Standing up is a move action that provokes
2. Moving while prone provokes unless you make an Acrobatics check to move just 5' as a full-round action with +5 to the DC.

According to the current rules, if you're prone and in the reach of melee enemies, you have three options:
a. Stay prone and fight. You suffer a penalty on your attacks and also on your AC against melee attacks, so this might be very suicidal.
b. Stand up and provoke. Depending on how many enemies are near you, this can be suicidal.
c. Spend your full round moving 5' and maybe not provoke IF you can manage an acrobatics check against the usual DC for moving through threatened squares but at +5. Even if this works, all your enemies can simply take a 5' free move on their turn and full-attack you while you're still prone, so this is almost certainly suicidal.

So, suicide, suicide, or suicide. Take your pick. Maybe option b is the safest, particularly if it means only 1 AoO from each opponent as opposed to letting them full-attack you with multiple attacks per the other two options.

Oh, sure, if you have enough friends, you can hope to move behind them and let them protect you, or you might try Total Defense (offsets the prone penalty to AC) and hope your friends save you, so maybe it's not suicide if you have enough friends, but in a tough, close fight, those friends need you at your best, so cowering on the ground might get THEM killed, and then you too.

Being prone is very dangerous, especially if the enemies around you are significantly threatening.

That's the brutal RAW.

Actually, real combat plays out this way too - with the exception of a very small percentage of highly trained people, fighting while prone against enemies who can easily reach you with weapons while they remain standing, really is suicide - every combat training manual ever written says so, if it says anything on the subject at all. And not just the manuals, but real life experience matches what the manuals teach us. For example, a boxer is instantly disqualified if he even tries to throw a punch at an opponent when he's down, and even MMA rules don't allow one guy to stand and punch a downed opponent - he either has to let the opponent up or get down there with him, at least to his knees, to keep from doing permanent and/or lethal damage with padded fists.

In Pathfinder, just like in the real world, if you want to live, stay on your feet.


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That being said, Pathfinder has precious few options for anyone to ever learn the abilities to survive when they fail to stay on their feet.

Rules to allow someone to fight while prone without suffering crippling penalties to attacks and AC, as well as rules to get back up without committing suicide, would be very welcome in Pathfinder, at least to me.

But such rules would have to represent significant training. Not just a feat. Not just a simple acrobatics roll that any low-level peasant could make. The old rule from the progenitor game system with a 35 DC definitely required some significant training. Even with a really good DEX, this roll would only be achievable by most dedicated characters around level 6 on up (full ranks in Tumble, good DEX, low or no armor check penalty, and a very high roll on the d20). That might actually be rather harsh, allowing only DEX-based characters to ever really have a chance to protect themsevles after becoming prone.

For a Stand Up houserule in the Pathfinder system:

Spoiler:

I would suggest creating it as a new combat maneuver, Stand Up, using CMB. This way everybody and everything could attempt this maneuver as a standard action (like all other maneuvers) but this one doesn't provoke (that's the point, after all). Success means you stand up without provoking, failure means you stand up but provoke as normal - either way you consume your standar action since you attempted a maneuver rather than simply using a move action to stand up normally. Additionally, an Improved Stand Up feat could be added to turn it into a move action and, maybe, to make it more appealing, it lessens the penalty to your CMB to only -2 while using the maneuver to stand up.

Possibly, if you want to go this far, another feat to make it an Immediate action might be warranted, but I wouldn't suggest including any further reduction in the CMB penalty - the benefit of standing and making full attacks is enough reward as it is.

Yes, that's not perfect, for now it rewards being big and strong and does very little for the quick and nimble, so I might also suggest allowing Acrobatics to be substituted for the CMB check (in much the same way Escape Artist can be substituted to get out of a grapple). That would get us close, but maybe too easy, unless we remember that you take a -4 attack penalty for being prone, and this should apply to CMB checks too (or the Acrobatics substitute), and if we also remember that multiple threatening enemies increase the DC +2 each (after the first), suddenly this maneuver houserule starts to seem more appropriate.

And for a Prone Fighting houserule in the Pathfinder system:

Spoiler:

I would suggest a feat for this. That would make it available to anyone who wants to invest in it. I would call it Prone Fighting and I would make it scale with BAB:

Prone Fighting
You are proficient at fighting while prone, able to strike and avoid blows without needing to stand up.
Prerequisites: BAB 4
Benefit: When you are prone, you automatically reduce the penalty for melee attacks you make and the penalty to your AC against melee attacks by 1 each for every 4 BAB that you have. This means that your penalties to hit and to AC are -3 at BAB 4, -2 at BAB 8, -1 at BAB 12, and -0 at BAB 16.
Normal: You normally suffer a -4 penalty to melee attacks and a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks when prone.

Obviously houserules, and obviously in the wrong forum for houserules, but this is where I found the thread, so it seemed like the right place for it.


DM_Blake wrote:

... That's the brutal RAW.

Actually, real combat plays out this way too - with the exception of a very small percentage of highly trained people, fighting while prone against enemies who can easily reach you with weapons while they remain standing, really is suicide - every combat training manual ever written says so, if it says anything on the subject at all. And not just the manuals, but real life experience matches what the manuals teach us. For example, a boxer is instantly disqualified if he even tries to throw a punch at an opponent when he's down, and even MMA rules don't allow one guy to stand and punch a downed opponent - he either has to let the opponent up or get down there with him, at least to his knees, to keep from doing permanent and/or lethal damage with padded fists.

In Pathfinder, just like in the real world, if you want to live, stay on your feet.

I think you summed it up very nicely and I agree with your conclusions on the matter. However, I would point out that your MMA example is actually a bit wrong.

It's not actually illegal to stand and punch a downed opponent, it happens all the time. If an opponent is on the ground it's usually in one of 2 positions, either they are on their back in which case they raise their legs up in a defensive posture from which they can block strikes and deliver "up kicks" and try to keep the opponent who is standing in front of their legs. Or they are on the ground facedown (either flat or on their knees) likely covering up their head with their arms.
If it is the former case, it's just not effective to strike while standing against a downed opponent, the range is too great and it's very possible to get knocked out yourself from an up-kick as you are leaning into the punch. Sometimes fighters will be able to throw punches, often following through with their body to try and establish a dominant position on the ground from which they can strike within their natural reach and without the risk of taking dangerous up-kicks. Otherwise they will mostly try and kick the legs of the downed opponent to create an opening, but most of the time it's ineffective and the downed opponent gets up without too much resistance (if you knocked them down you were likely winning the stand up game).
If it is the latter case, they are pretty much in a real bad spot, likely dazed and/or almost knocked out. I have seen fighters finish them in a number of ways including from a standing position. The big reason you don't see a lot of standing vs prone action is because of reach. You are free to punch the opponent, but you can't kick them. Well most people cant reach the floor from a standing position with their punches so they drop down to a lower level so they can put more power and speed into their punches. If the opponent is face down, crouching over his knees and covering his head then I have seen guys climb on their back and start punching the side of the guys head (since back of the head punches are illegal). That's really rare though, usually when you knock someone down they will still be facing you and when they cover up the closest body part to you will be their head. The quickest (which is important- to take advantage of their weakened state) way to get to them is to bend down over them (which happens most often IMO) so your punches are within reach, second most likely is actually "sprawling" where you get down to your knee's or lean on your opponent to keep him down with your legs spread out behind you to create a wide base for power and then start to punch them in the side of the head.

You are right about it's a bad place to be in, but the MMA isn't really a good comparison for Pathfinder mechanics given that there are no weapons (and therefore limited reach) in MMA making standing to prone combat mostly ineffective except in situations where your opponent is not only prone, but dazed.


DM Blake

"WOW! I think I just found a "dragon horde of treasure"....*reading your post*! Thanks for your insight and I do believe my group is going to be VERY interested in the two new feats/house rules I will be proposing next session!


Edit button is your friend.


Here is what I came up with on two of my new feats. I left the Prone Fighting feat alone;

Stand Up
You are more proficient than most at standing from a prone position during melee.
Prerequisites: BAB 2
Benefit: A successful CMB or Acrobatics check of 25 plus +2 per opponent, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening melee opponents, but it still consumes a move action. Failure results in you standing but provoking attacks of opportunity and consumes a move action.
Normal: Standing from a prone position always provokes from an threatening melee opponent. Utilizing a CMB check or Acrobatics to not provoke attacks of opportunity normally increases +2 per opponent when attempting to stand from a prone position.

Improved Stand Up
You are very effective at standing from a prone position during melee.
Prerequisites BAB 5, Stand Up
Benefit: A successful CMB or Acrobatics check of 25 plus +1 per opponent, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening melee opponents, but it consumes an immediate action. Failure results in you standing but provoking attacks of opportunity and consumes a move action. At BAB 10 there is no longer a +1 per opponent.
Normal: Utilizing a CMB check or Acrobatics to not provoke attacks of opportunity normally increases +2 per opponent when attempting to stand from a prone position.

Prone Fighting
You are proficient at fighting while prone, able to strike and avoid blows without needing to stand up.
Prerequisites: BAB 4
Benefit: When you are prone, you automatically reduce the penalty for melee attacks you make and the penalty to your AC against melee attacks by 1 each for every 4 BAB that you have. This means that your penalties to hit and to AC are -3 at BAB 4, -2 at BAB 8, -1 at BAB 12, and -0 at BAB 16.
Normal: You normally suffer a -4 penalty to melee attacks and a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks when prone.


I really do not see the need for the house rule feats.

Monkey Style from Ultimate combat.

Quote:

Monkey Style (Combat, Style)

Your unarmed fighting style is nimble and unpredictable, full of ground rolls and short leaps. Prerequisites: Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike,
Acrobatics 5 ranks, Climb 5 ranks.

Benefit: You add your Wisdom bonus on Acrobatics checks. While using this style, you take no penalty on melee attack rolls or to AC while prone. Further, you can crawl and stand up from lying prone without provoking attacks of opportunity, and you can stand up as a swift action if you succeed at a DC 20 Acrobatics check. Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and AC against melee attacks while prone. Standing up is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

It takes one prerequisite feat, a minimum stat and some skill ranks.

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