I am starting the Rise of the Runelords tonight with a party of 4
1) Goblin Summoner
2) Human Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer
3) Elf Druid
4) Goblin Rogue
Any ideas how to handle the two Goblin PCs as they relate to the Goblin threats?
They are CG aligned ( brothers ). Are they considered traitors? Do they get taunted?
How would you all handle this?
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Post raid... killed on sight. Now please roll new characters bearing in mind the events that have already occurred in game." I am against goblins as Rotrl pcs.
Conundrum,
You may be against them but I am not. And they are already prepared.
I am looking for creative ideas. If they die, they die. But I won't have them killed just to get rid of the problem.
Mikaze,
I haven't heard their rationale for why they are together yet.
The goblins that are raiding should probably consider them pariahs or villains, and might decide to focus more on them in combat because of it, especially if the goblins PCs ignore goblins taboos.
How the goblin PCs help with Sandpoint during the goblin attack should influence the local NPC opinions of them. If they're cowardly or avoid fighting other goblins, the townfolk might end-up with a less friendly disposition than if they manage to pull their weight in the goblin fighting.
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It can be done, if the goblin help to defend the town and have npc to vouch for them that would help a lot. Probably they need a symbol (of Sarenrae? She is goddess of redemption), characteristic war paint, more civilized looks or whatever to differentiate them from regular goblins as well, appareances are important after all.
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Considering that the players and GM seem to be onboard with the idea, suggestions on how to make it work are likely useful than admonishments of "you can't do that".
Mixed range of reactions from various NPCs dynamically adjusted according to what these guys do is the way I'd roll in a pinch.
If those goblins have history in town, especially if they were raised there, would help them out quite a bit. (ha, maybe (self-appointed) junkyard guards)
("insular" isn't really the first word that jumps to mind with Sandpoint)
While Drogos diction isn't great he makes a strong point. Ameris, as .gm you have all the power... just realize you are going off the reservation and there is no script to help you here. You risk even your own players feeling like there is no suspension of disbelief. Don't know if I said that right but you risk your credibility anyway.
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When players come to me with something like this I ask them to justify it. If they can't give me a good reason then their goblins probably can't convince the NPC's to not kill them on sight.
Your credibility with me is not an issue. I too am playing Rotrl and I say if. The stable master OF GOBLIN SQUASH STABLES sees those walking green jack-o-lanterns its going to be go time... and he will be level four against first level goblin pc favored enemies. He will likely be smashing pumpkins in the street and not the street90s rock band either. Sheriff's response" good work citizen here's a commendation for valor".
I think if they are very clearly fighting to defend the town against the goblins, and are with a group that was fighting against the goblins, and look a little different, people will be able to accept them over time.
Yes if. The longer they survive. Personally, THIS AP, I'd let em feel like they were working to survive from both angles. From scene 1.
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Campaign traits are the key.
I think the APG traits are the ones from this AP. Black Sheep enforcers for the noble or scavengers for the apothecary would probably work. Favored Sons protected by the sheriff because they saved his kids life from the other goblins at some point.
I love the idea of junkyard goblins. Come to eat the evil dogs, stay for the cool stuff and trash burning and safety from both the townsfolk and corruption of the old tribe..
Here's my 2 cp.
Yes, having goblin pcs should be an uphill battle for approval, but remember, the 'noble' they save can vouch for them, so can the Priest. And later on (for believability sake) Shalelu can use them as a cross reference on the different goblin tribes that have been allying with Thistletop.
As far as getting accepted goes, sadly the goblins will need to be in the company of their non goblin allies so NPCs will know to not attack them on sight (at least until the end of the first book)
Regarding the Sheriff, he's no fool (he's good aligned too if that helps) so he should recognize that if these goblins helped, then they should be treated as allies (at arms length) until proven otherwise
no he's lawful neutral.
I would NOT have them be part of the same tribe of goblins faced by the party. There are numerous goblin tribes in the world. I would have them be from a rival goblin tribe. Why? Because starting them as a former part of the villains force will give them special inside information and cause issues that way.
Thanks so far, guys. Especially you Mikaze. :)
As far as the naysayers go, well, they do have a point. But, I asked for ideas. You are entitled to your opinions but I'd respect them more if you started your own thread called "People that run goblins in RoRL are the dumbest!!11!". Or something. That being said...
1) I enjoy a challenge. I especially enjoy a challenge that will introduce a little GRR Martin grittiness mixed with some real world prejudice and drama.
2) I have altered the AP in some minor ways already, that are not mechanical. I have used some things from Richard Pett's book and column "Your Whispering Homunculus", to give the whole AP a darker, macabre feel. For instance, I have added a freak show circus to to the Swallowtail Festival at the beginning.
3) Personally, I have never run a campaign or adventure before where I paid attention to the monstrous humanoids 'racial alignments'. It comes from my own belief in individuality. Any person, creature or outsider has free will and can break any alignment stereotype. I try to give goblins and orcs, etc a better reason for attacking humans all the time. After all, real world people do it all the time, without any reason whatsoever. But an adversary's motivation is usually more compelling to the reader/watcher/player.
All that being said, I kind of like the idea of the goblin brothers having rescued someone's child in the past as well as having them come from a rival tribe.
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I find myself in an odd position as 1) Goblins form such a strong antagonistic force in RoTL I.E: not only all of Burnt Offerings, but some of Fortress of the Stone Giants if I recall correctly. Which puts me in the same camp as 'Don't allow Good Drow in Second Darkness'.
2) On the other hand, I Lurves me some Golarion Goblin underdogs, so I would say go for it, but warn your PC's ahead of time they are facing a kind of uphill battle.
3) You might consider talking with your Goblin Character's Players & see what they have in mind for their characters & why they chose Goblins. I specifically developed this character with the fact that one of the NPC's in question hated Goblins with a passion & his background reflects the fact that sometimes good people have to decide whether they are going to hold on to their conscience or their hatred.
That he survived to become a PC is an example of how the NPC in question answered that conundrum.
If you're interested in running a darker themed game I think it could work. I would work with the 2 players to produce a significant back story reason for why they aren't killed on sight. Maybe they were captured by the sheriff or at a young age and grew up as a kind of town mascot. maybe they are treated as slave labor and they do crap jobs around town. Maybe they are part of the tribe but they've been secretly warning townsfolk about raids before they happen etc.. whatever the reason it should provide an influential and protective figure in the town that can help them offset some of the racism. I say offset because they still should receive some racism and fear. The rest of the PCs will also need a good reason for associating with the goblins, They grew up in the same town and would have many of the same opinions of the townfolk. If I were you I might set up a "pre" adventure scenario for the goblin characters where they find out about the raid and fight their way to the town just in time to warn them, maybe saving the other pcs in the process. I would also probably add in some negative modifiers for any interactions in town diplomacy checks might get a -5 modifier (maybe a -2 for the non goblin pcs because they are friends with them). Maybe selling gear they only get 40-45% instead of the normal 50% or have a premium on purchasing items from most merchants.
Easy. Just dial back the racism and have the townspeople treat them as individuals. Probably still give them a lot of funny looks and not be too friendly, but no stupid bigot kill-on-sight stuff. Once they demonstrate that they're with the good guys (by helping repel the intruding goblins), then they get treated a little better.
Idk have you read the R.A. Salvatore books about the non evil Drow Ranger? Positively.. Illuminating. Go get 'em and rest easy in the knowledge that all that hard work to change fundamental themes of the AP is worth it to be original by using a archetypically evil race as heroes, yeah!
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Without reading the entire thread...
As a quick fix, maybe change the Goblins to Kobolds (or some other, similar creature)?
At the end of the day... just go against what the AP says mate. Sure, reading the details of the AP may indicate that this cannot work - but who cares? Your world, just change it. Do not listen to the nay-sayers. You could easily change the AP to have it realistically incorporate Goblins are player characters.
Perhaps there was a recent war; however there is now an uneasy truce? That could lead to some excellent role-playing. Maybe Goblins are a bit smarter in your world, and an emissary visits town wishing to discuss the borders between SandPoint and the Goblin tribes (for hunting purposes)? Maybe the War is not really over – but more like a cold war scenario (imagine a Russian living in America at that time – similar to the Goblins in Sandpoint)? Then once the attack occurs, the Goblin PCs are blamed – leading to even more roleplaying opportunities…
I think it would be tough for the Goblin PCs – no doubt – but it also opens a vast array of opportunity.
Through-line: Your world, you can make it work however you want. Don’t be afraid to modify the AP to suit!
Good luck. I am interested to see how it goes.
Without reading the entire thread...
As a quick fix, maybe change the Goblins to Kobolds (or some other, similar creature)?
At the end of the day... just go against what the AP says mate. Sure, reading the details of the AP may indicate that this cannot work - but who cares? Your world, just change it. Do not listen to the nay-sayers. You could easily change the AP to have it realistically incorporate Goblins are player characters.
Perhaps there was a recent war; however there is now an uneasy truce? That could lead to some excellent role-playing. Maybe Goblins are a bit smarter in your world, and an emissary visits town wishing to discuss the borders between SandPoint and the Goblin tribes (for hunting purposes)? Maybe the War is not really over – but more like a cold war scenario (imagine a Russian living in America at that time – similar to the Goblins in Sandpoint)? Then once the attack occurs, the Goblin PCs are blamed – leading to even more roleplaying opportunities…
I think it would be tough for the Goblin PCs – no doubt – but it also opens a vast array of opportunity.
Through-line: Your world, you can make it work however you want. Don’t be afraid to modify the AP to suit!
Good luck. I am interested to see how it goes.
*applause*
Idk have you read the R.A. Salvatore books about the non evil Drow Ranger? Positively.. Illuminating. Go get 'em and rest easy in the knowledge that all that hard work to change fundamental themes of the AP is worth it to be original by using a archetypically evil race as heroes, yeah!
Not terribly helpful.
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Not terribly helpful.
Or original. If someone can only see Drizzt when anyone does anything outside the "norm" with certain races, that's their baggage.
Y'know, if one is looking for a reason for them to stick close to Sandpoint during their time before RotRL kicks off, there's the Sandoint Devil. For folks terrified of horses, that thing would be fear incarnate.
Gotta concur with not having the goblins be exiles from the tribe that features in Burnt Offerings to keep some things secret. There's plenty others to coose from though.
There are a number of NPCs that could aid in the PCs getting by through vouching for them with the weight of their good name(while possibly placing the PCs in their debt). That also sets up some potential conflicts between NPCs that'll hinge on what the PCs do.
One potentially dark and/or comedic spin on that could be to have them as the subjects of study at that nearby asylum. They let the doc look in their ears and answer the questions about the ink blots and he gives them (heavily medicated) food and shelter(away from the building proper).
As mentioned above, Sarenrae is a helpful choice of divine patrons, but others can fit the bill too. Particularly Desna, especially if they were raised or vouched for by Zanthus, Koya, or other prominent members of that faith.
Honestly, if you can convince these players to have their characters already as established members of the community in some form or other, that will likely be best. The townspeople are unlikely to necessarily be welcoming of two newcomer goblins right in the aftermath of a goblin attack, but if you can have them be already established in the town, the townspeople will be less likely to be reactionarily antagonistic to the two. They will probably face a good deal of prejudice, but they can still find allies in the town.
Personally, I don't know if I'd allow it. On one hand, as people have mentioned, Goblins are prime antagonists of the beginning of the AP, but on the other hand, I like characters who break the stereotypes of their race (so long as they don't go to the Drizzt extremes, where it becomes an entirely new and thoroughly boring stereotype), and I'm a great advocate in being permissive towards players to allow them agency in the story and the game. But, I'm not running your game; you are, and if you and the players are fine with it, go for it.
Make them pre existing members of the town that did some great deed that earned them at least tolerance from the locals. Maybe the rescued a merchant from wolves or provided intel on goblin raids for sanctuary. Maybe these were some of those goblin babies paladins are always suffering moral issues over and were placed in care of the local temple.
Being cg they probably didnt fit in with the other goblins. Whatever the reason it can be worked into the game somehow.
Sarenrae works, but Shelyn (or even possibly Desna) would work too. Essentially any of those would have a message that would endear them to the townspeople, Desna being probably the most common deity worshiped in the town, which gives them a sense of inclusivity and commonality. As for Sarenrae, I would normally advocate her, but her dogma focuses much more on redemption as a means of attaining that inclusivity, which doesn't quite mesh with the idea of these two goblins that at least to my understanding aren't requiring of redemption for anything, necessarily. But, especially if you take her portfolio to include each of the three Greek words for love, Shelyn's portfolio is more aligned with the idea of becoming accepted, not by means redemption from atonement of transgressions, but as an individual capable of goodness and love and compassion.
Nah disguse the goblin as a stuned half Orc ;)
Townsfolk are stupid and easy to fool, plus hiding things as a player is fun ;)
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Ok. OP here. It went well last night. We adopted a combination of the angles mentioned here:
The Goblin PCs were a combination of 1) survivors of a rival tribe to the Thistletop goblins and 2) they fled and while running, came upon Sandpoint. They nearly kept on going when they found the Sheriff in trouble and couldn't just leave him to be attacked by a goblin commando. After helping him out, the sheriff brought them back and encouraged Father Zantus to give them sanctuary in the new church.
Most of the townspeople still hate them but they are tolerated. No one will violate the church to harm them at night but if they are found alone by the wrong person or group, they might get beaten or worse, lynched.
After the initial goblin attack, they have won a few more over to their cause.
I think, as far as real world analogues, they are in a situation similar to that of a freed slave in post Civil War South, or a Sioux scout aiding a small village to prevent them from being slaughtered.
But, all in all, it went well.
I actually played a goblin barbarian in ROTR, on a play by post on these forums. I made him come from a separate tribe, that was opposed to the Thistletop Goblins. Most of the other tribes are jealous of their base and I imagine that goblin don't share a good relation with each other. Plus i figured that after my goblin "helped save the town" the townspeople might have be accepting enough to let him stay if he didn't cause trouble.
Hope that idea helps some.
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Isn't there a goblin fire brigade in either Sandpoint or Magnimar that is basically a bunch of goblins on a water wagon fighting fires? I seem to remember reading something about that somewhere.... You could just have them as members of that or ex-members and fairly well known or at least tolerated.
Ok. OP here. It went well last night. We adopted a combination of the angles mentioned here:
The Goblin PCs were a combination of 1) survivors of a rival tribe to the Thistletop goblins and 2) they fled and while running, came upon Sandpoint. They nearly kept on going when they found the Sheriff in trouble and couldn't just leave him to be attacked by a goblin commando. After helping him out, the sheriff brought them back and encouraged Father Zantus to give them sanctuary in the new church.
Most of the townspeople still hate them but they are tolerated. No one will violate the church to harm them at night but if they are found alone by the wrong person or group, they might get beaten or worse, lynched.
After the initial goblin attack, they have won a few more over to their cause.
I think, as far as real world analogues, they are in a situation similar to that of a freed slave in post Civil War South, or a Sioux scout aiding a small village to prevent them from being slaughtered.
But, all in all, it went well.
Excellent! Well done!
And people said it wouldn't work.
Look, whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant. You are the DM, you can change what you want. Granted I've never played through RotRL, but you have the freedom to make it work. Despite the past problems, if the townsfolk see the Gobbo PCs defend the town, then they'll accept them. Just RP them like that, you're the DM!
But, all in all, it went well.
Excellent to hear! Good stuff.
Kudos to you for letting your players be goblins and express their creativity (and yours)!
I have a kobold PC running around in the RotRL campaign I'm GMing. The townspeople don't love him, but after his help during the goblin raids in Chapter 1 they tolerated him.
We're in Chapter 2 now and most of the town has grown accustomed to his presence. In fact the bakery owner and her daughters have come to like him because he has a sweet tooth and spends a lot of cash there.
I wouldn't say that "monster" PCs will work in any campaign, but as long as you and the players are in agreement about what works in yours things will be fine.