New Build Thread: "Interesting / Versatile" and Not Particularly Optimized Builds


Advice


I'd like to have a build thread for "interesting/versatile" and not overly optimized builds. The goal is to make characters who don't just spam one spell or combat maneuver.

The guidelines are an array of 18, 18, 18, 18, 17, 16, any Paizo products which includes non-standard races in the APG. Half-fiends, half-celestials and half-dragons are allowed but will be evaluated in a separate category. The ridiculous array makes MAD classes a lot more viable, and actually favors MAD classes (an 80-something point buy wizard is not significantly more powerful than a 20 point buy wizard, but an 80-something point buy monk, rogue, ninja or ranger is a lot more powerful than a 20 point buy version).

The builds will be evaluated at levels ten, fifteen, and twenty. The criteria are solo combat against CR-same-as-level opponent chosen by the poster, and then as part of a four character team vs. APL +3 encounter. The builds that pass those tests will then be judged on versatility and being interesting from a non-optimized perspective. In a few hours I'll post a mystic theurge build with a focus on summoning, so a sorcerer with the same feats will be more powerful in combat but the mystic theurge will be more versatile/interesting for the sake of this competition. Which is not to say that a sorcerer can't be interesting, but a mystic theurge has a wider range of option in and out of combat.


Another build guideline: The character will have accumulated enough xp to be halfway to the next level, and assumes a medium advancement.

Here is my submission:

Aristobulos the Unstable
CG Human Wizard (Diviner) 3/ Cleric of Desna 3/ Mystic Theurge 4
Prohibited Schools Illusion and Necromancy
Domains Luck and Liberation
Familiar Hawk

Init +6 AC 18
BAB +5

F +9
R +7
W +14

Str 16
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 26 (18+2 racial +2 for levels +4 headband)
Wis 22 (18 +4 headband)
Cha 17

Traits
Magical Knack, Reactionary
Feats
1 Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus(Conjuration), Combat Casting
3 Augment Summoning
5 Sacred Summons
7 Craft Wondrous Items
9 Spell Penetration

Skills
Craft(ships) 5 ranks +16
Diplomacy 10 ranks +16
Heal 10 ranks +19
Knowledge(history) 1 ranks +12
Knowledge(arcana) 10 ranks +21
Knowledge(religion) 10 ranks +21
Knowledge(nobility) 1 ranks +12
Knowledge(the planes) 10 ranks +21
Linguistics 10 ranks +21
Profession(court wizard) 5 ranks +14
Profession(sailor) 8 ranks +17
Sense Motive 10 ranks +19
Spellcraft 10 ranks +21

Equipment
Cloak of Resistance +3 (crafted by Aristobulos)
Bracers of Armor +4 (crafted by Aristobulos)
Headband of Mental Prowess +4 (Int and Wis)
Ring of Sustenance
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
Folding Boat (crafted by Aristobulos)

The concept is that Aristobulos summons monsters at the start of combat, then casts offensive, buff, and healing spells. He can prepare divine spells in arcane spell slots and deliver them through his hawk familiar. He is less powerful than a conjurer or sorcerer specializing in conjuration, but pretty versatile. For the fifteenth level build I'll add Esoteric Training, I'll have to get a rough estimate of how much guild fees would be.

Backstory
Aristobulos is the grandson of a powerful wizard. His father is a mediocre wizard who works as a court wizard. His mother is a cleric of Desna. His father and grandfather wanted him to be a wizard, his mother wanted him to be a cleric, so he went with both. He has unreliable visions of the future and sometimes casts spells in response to visions, and the visions don't necessarily come true, earning him the nickname Aristobulos the Unstable.


Kane the Smiter
Orc Paladin 2/Monk 4/Champion of Irori 4

Init +5 AC 22 FF 17 Touch 22
BAB +9 Flurry +8/+8/+3/+3

F +13
R +11
W +13

Str 22 (18+2 racial +2 for levels +2 belt)
Dex 20 (18 +2 for belt)
Con 17
Int 16
Wis 20 (18 +2 headband)
Cha 20 (18 +2 headband)

Feats
1 - Power Attack
3 - Boar Style
3 M1 - Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike
4 M2 - Combat Reflexes
5 - Boar Ferocity
7 - Extra Ki
9 - Improved Critical

Amulet of Mighty Fists +2
Belt of Physical Might +2
Headband of Mental Prowess +2
42k gold left

Attacks +17 Flurry 16/16/11/11
Damage 1d10+8 (2 or more hit +2d6 dam and free intimidate)
Power Attack +14 Flurry 13/13/8/8
Damage 1d10+14 (2 or more hit +2d6 dam and free intimidate)
Smite Evil/chaos with power attack +19 Flurry +18/18/13/13
Damage 1d10+20 (2 or more hit +2d6 dam and free intimidate)

Skills - 76 points
Intimidate 10 - +15
Know(religion) 5 - +12
Linguistics 5 - +8
56 points left

Ki pools - Monk 7 Champion of Irori 9
Lay hands 6 times a day(+1 for 2 ki) for 3d6
Smite 3 times a day(+1 for 2 ki)

Abilities
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine grace, Lay on Hands
Flurry of blows, Stunning Fist, Evasion, +10 move, Still Mind, Ki pool, slow fall 20 ft
Detect Chaos, Smite Chaos, Ki pool, Sweeping Smite, Valiant stand

Not optimized or done, just what I could throw together.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You can be optimized for versatility.

What you are asking for is no "one trick pony" builds.

You could create builds that can pretty much everything, just really poorly.


Class: Alchemist 10 (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist)/4 Rogue (Scout/Thug)/6 (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist)
Race: Vishkanya

STR: 18 (+1 @ 8th, 12th, 16th 20th Level)
DEX: 18
CON: 18
INT: 18
WIS: 16
CHA: 17 (+1 @ 4th Level)

Traits
__________________

Natural-Born Leader (+1 Will)
Reactionary (+2 Ini)

Feats
__________________

01st Level: Sleep Venom (Vishkanya)
03rd Level: Ability Focus (Toxic)
05th Level: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
07th Level: Eldritch Heritage (Envenomed/Serpent’s Fang)
09th Level: Toughness
11th Level: Improved Eldritch Heritage (Envenomed/Envenom)
13th Level: Dodge
15th Level: Extra Rogue Talent(Ninja Trick, Vanishing Trick)
17th Level: Weapon Focus (Bite)
19th Level: Weapon Focus (Claws)

Rogue Talents
__________________
12th Level: Offensive Defense
14th Level: Ki Pool

Discoveries
__________________

02nd Level: Infusion
04th Level: Feral Mutagen
06th Level: Sticky Poison
08th Level: Celestial Poisons
10th Level: Spontaneous Healing
16th Level: Greater Mutagen
18th Level: Extend Potion
20th Level: Eternal Potion

Can poison nearly anything, so much alchemist goodies, swift invisibliy, pounce, sneak attack on pounce,can sicken an ememy on sneak attack, can inimidate quite well on power attack ...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Poison kind sucks.

A Half-Elf, or PC with the Racial Heritage(Half-Elf) feat, Seeker Lore Oracle with the Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) feat can be really versatile.

Use Paragon Surge to nab Improved Eldritch Heritage, and choose New Arcana for impromtu spells known.

You disable traps, handle situations with magic, and make a great face.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Poison kind sucks.

Have you done the math?

At Level 10th this build can poison his weapon as a swift action 4 times per day. Each use sticks to the weapon for 4 hits.

The save DC is 10 + CON + 1/2 HD + Ability Focus = 22!!
This poison can deal DEX damage or let the target fall unconscious!
Thanks to Celestial Poisons Evil Outsiders and Undead are not immune!!
And this are the numbers without equipment...

So please show me a melee build that can do a save on suck on a normal attack at a fairly high DC, 25 times per day (asuming 20 con, 20 int with items)

And there is more

- full sneak attack like a rogue
- Swift invis
- Pounce
- Poison bit
- Nearly full "alchemist casting"
- Mutagent can upgrade attack/damage or save DC

I can understand if you tell me its not well optimized or if you don't like it but i am quite sure this build does not suck ;)

Breiti

Dark Archive

I think anytime you build for a character and not for mechanics it is unique. For instance, you want to play an sailor. Forget all the mechanical stuff at first and plug it in after words. Thank about character traits, appearance, family, motivations, obligations, origins, racial culture ect. Once you have accomplished that, then find the attributes/traits ect that are justified by what your background suggests.

If that is not unique enough still, take a non-optimal, but very role playable archetype. The Pirate archetype for Rogue, or the Geshia archetype for Bard come to mind, but there are many others.


Breiti wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Poison kind sucks.

Have you done the math?

At Level 10th this build can poison his weapon as a swift action 4 times per day. Each use sticks to the weapon for 4 hits.

The save DC is 10 + CON + 1/2 HD + Ability Focus = 22!!
This poison can deal DEX damage or let the target fall unconscious!
Thanks to Celestial Poisons Evil Outsiders and Undead are not immune!!
And this are the numbers without equipment...

So please show me a melee build that can do a save on suck on a normal attack at a fairly high DC, 25 times per day (asuming 20 con, 20 int with items)

And there is more

- full sneak attack like a rogue
- Swift invis
- Pounce
- Poison bit
- Nearly full "alchemist casting"
- Mutagent can upgrade attack/damage or save DC

I can understand if you tell me its not well optimized or if you don't like it but i am quite sure this build does not suck ;)

Breiti

he must missed the point. The threads not about optimization. In answering him you forgot as well.


Nvm just saw th ridiculous stat array. Pretty sure my eleven year old daughter whose played three times could build character that could nearly one shot an AP with those stats solo...without changing the published material. COME ON GUYS WHAT'S ORIGINAL ABOUT ALMOST ALL 18S?!


See my "only you can prevent forest fires" based on that this clearly belongs in the sub forum labeled: Munchkin Corner.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

You can be optimized for versatility.

What you are asking for is no "one trick pony" builds.

You could create builds that can pretty much everything, just really poorly.

Have to agree on that point. In my experience, most good optimized builds are all about maintaining a nice amount of versatility. so that your PC can make an effective contribution in almost any scenario.If you think about it, a one-trick pony just isn't all that "optimal" of a build.

It's why a lot of optimizers aren't overly fond of the Fighter: they might be good at hitting with a sword, but they've got poor versatility.


I don't know if this has been mentioned. Should try and have 1 rank in every class skill; that +3 bonus to the skill is a lot.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am tired of "optimized" being a dirty word.

You can be "optimized" for fun, or "optimized" for RP possibilities and flavor.

You can also be mechanically "optimized" for combat, or a slew of other things, and not be some faceless token, completely devoid of any interesting flavor.

Dang it, I am here to tell you, the can be mechanically, and flavored, to awesome heights.

I am also here to tell you that the opposite can be true, and you can be faceless, flavorless, and completely weak unoptimized build.

It is the dang truth, now get used to it!


Takes a discerning eye to not blur the line between optimized and munchkin but the circumstantial evidence against the op is mounting as I've seen his other thread appearances and they bend or show a desire to bend toward power gaming and difficulty restraining the urge to do so. Which in his own group is likely A ok. It just isn't everyone's cup of tea. That said, if you're gonna min max just do it and drop the pretense of trying to be original cause you ain't. Same goes if your hard core rp. Nothing new under the sun said a Roman some thousands of years ago.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am tired of "optimized" being a dirty word.

You can be "optimized" for fun, or "optimized" for RP possibilities and flavor.

You can also be mechanically "optimized" for combat, or a slew of other things, and not be some faceless token, completely devoid of any interesting flavor.

Dang it, I am here to tell you, the can be mechanically, and flavored, to awesome heights.

I am also here to tell you that the opposite can be true, and you can be faceless, flavorless, and completely weak unoptimized build.

It is the dang truth, now get used to it!

Optimised also means the power level of the game is set on 'high' in that any sub-optimal player will struggle against the monsters the DM has to put against the 'optimisers'. Either that or they are completely out-shone...


ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:
18, 18, 18, 18, 17, 16

*Yawn*

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am tired of "optimized" being a dirty word.

You can be "optimized" for fun, or "optimized" for RP possibilities and flavor.

You can also be mechanically "optimized" for combat, or a slew of other things, and not be some faceless token, completely devoid of any interesting flavor.

Dang it, I am here to tell you, the can be mechanically, and flavored, to awesome heights.

I am also here to tell you that the opposite can be true, and you can be faceless, flavorless, and completely weak unoptimized build.

It is the dang truth, now get used to it!

While this is all factual, a true roleplayer will scream "Munchkin!" at a tube of toothpaste that claims to be "Optimized for 20% More Whitening Power!!!"


blackbloodtroll wrote:

You can be optimized for versatility.

What you are asking for is no "one trick pony" builds.

You could create builds that can pretty much everything, just really poorly.

I like the builds I've seen. It is basically a no one trick pony build thread, with overpowered stats. Like I said, the almost all 18s favors MAD classes. Being good at one thing is fine for the build as long as the character is good at a few other things as well.

I forgot the human bonus skill point and haven't factored in favored class for the three levels of cleric in my build. I was debating using Dual Talented, which would have given up the skill points (and the bonus feat, which I decided to keep). The other 13 skill points are allocated one point each in knowledge(dungeoneering), knowledge(engineering), and knowledge(nature) with five ranks each in bluff and disguise.

As always, anyone who doesn't find the thread interesting is not required to participate in the thread. The CR 13 portion of testing the builds will be a Froghemoth, and I'm sure all of the posted builds can solo a CR 10 encounter of their choice.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / New Build Thread: "Interesting / Versatile" and Not Particularly Optimized Builds All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.