Ultimate Campaign: Researching spells


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Seems that the rules in Ucam (p. 86) change the rules found in The Gamemastery Guide (p. 114).

Should I assume the Ucam rules are the new rules for spell research?

The new ones suck a bit. First, they only mention alchemist, magi and wizards. No clerics or sorcerers!?

Second, they cost less (cool) but take alot more time and there are so many more checks than in the GMG (but the DC is lower) to manage to crate a new one.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

See this post in another thread.

As for the "First, they only mention alchemist, magi and wizards. No clerics or sorcerers" comment:

1) The Research a Spell section doesn't say "wizard" or "magus" anywhere; I think you're confusing the Research a Spell rules (page 86) with the Add Spells to Your Spellbook rules (page 84), which specifically mention magus and wizard.

2) It doesn't limit the downtime rules for spell research at all. It tells you what checks you need to make, and step 4 says "Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell)..." So any spellcasting class can use this. It mentions alchemists at the end because they're using a different knowledge skill.


Thanks for the response!

Liberty's Edge

Sean two question:

UCamp wrote:

RESEARCH A SPELL

The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
1. Pay 100 gp × the spell’s level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
2. Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
3. Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell’s level.
4. Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can’t take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10).
If both checks succeed, you make 1 day’s progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.
If either or both spell research checks fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. For each check that fails by 5 or more, your research has led to poor results and you lose a day of progress toward completing the spell.
If you’re an alchemist, you can use this downtime option to research a new extract formula. Instead of a Spellcraft check, attempt a Craft alchemy) check. For Knowledge (arcana) checks, you may attempt a knowledge (nature) check instead.

1) the research cost is 100 gp * spell level * day of research?

The rules say "the steps for spell research each day are as follows." so we have read it as "you have to pay step 1. each day", it is right?

2) "the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known." For a spellcaster with a spellbook or a familiar it is clear, but what happen when the researcher is a spontaneous spellcaster? He get to add a extra spell to the spell he know as if he had taken Expanded Arcana?

I think that 1) and 2) are linked. If 2) is true the high price for spell research is perfectly motivated for a spontaneous spellcaster as the final price of researching a spell is very similar to the price of the pages of spell knowledge. But it seem excessive for a spellcaster using a book (at least when doing parallel research on existing spells) seeing how copying a spell from a spellbook or a scroll is decidedly cheaper.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

1) Each day you pay 100 x the spell's level.

2) No, a bard or sorcerer can't use spell research to increase the number of spells known. Spell research allows you to say, "I've leveled up and can learn new spells, but none of the printed spells are something I want to learn, so I'm going to research a totally new spell."

As for your last point, remember that the Core Rulebook rule (page 219, Independent Research) is that researching a new spell "should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched." So a 3rd-level spell is going to take at least three weeks and cost you at least 3,000 gp per week. Using the downtime system just breaks this into a per-day cost and allows you to make daily progress toward that goal; on average the costs are going to be about the same as if you used the Core Rulebook method (i.e., pretty expensive).


Hmm so old way to research a 9th level spell, spend 9k gold and 1 week?

New way costs 900 gold a day for 63 days or 56700 over a period of 9 weeks.

That does not appear to me to be the same average cost.

Am I understanding the old and new method correctly?

Liberty's Edge

Tanks for the reply.

Unless I am mistaken the research costs are:

Spell level ....daily cost ...... Time required ..... Total cost
.. 1 ............. 100 ............... 7 days ........... 700
.. 2 ............. 200 .............. 14 days ......... 2.800
.. 3 ............. 300 .............. 21 days ......... 6.300
.. 4 ............. 400 .............. 28 days ........ 11.200
.. 5 ............. 500 .............. 35 days ........ 17.500
.. 6 ............. 600 .............. 42 days ........ 25.200
.. 7 ............. 700 .............. 49 days ........ 34.300
.. 8 ............. 800 .............. 56 days ........ 44.800
.. 9 ............. 900 .............. 63 days ........ 56.700

As the spell level affect both the daily cost and the time required to do the research the final cost is way above 1.000 gp for each spell level.

To me it seem perfectly appropriate if the researcher is creating a new spell, a bit less appropriate if he is researching an existing spells.

So, another 2 questions:

1) if the researcher is researching a existing and widely known spell (as an example he live in a country where the sale of the fireball spell is restricted to buyer with a special license and he hasn't it)
or a minor variation of a common spell (a fireball using saltpeter instead of bat guano), it would be appropriate to reduce the research cost?

2) What is the value of a researched spell against a spellcaster wealth by level? The research cost or the copying cost for a spell of that level?

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Read the Core Rulebook text again:

The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched.

The wording of that is confusing and vague (which is partly why I wanted this to become part of the downtime system). Is it

• 1 week, and 1,000 gp per level total?
• 1 week per level and 1,000 gp per level total?
• 1 week per level and 1,000 gp per level per week?
• Something else?

The downtime system is more precise and (like mundane crafting) lets you take advantage of a high skill check to make progress faster (and thus spend less overall).

As to answer your followup questions:

1) That's a campaign-specific question. As written, it doesn't matter if you're trying to research fireball or Diego's awesome electrical blast that nobody else has invented, the rules are the same.

2) That's a Jason question. (Personally, I wouldn't count it at all.)

Liberty's Edge

Now I must research that spell. ;-)


Regarding spell research, what does everyone feel about crossing spell lists by research?

I was thinking about the balancing of spells - in theory, a re-flavoured spell on a spell list from a caster of the same progression (ie all full casters - lets leave the summoner, bard, alchemist out of this), would be "balanced" with other spells. As a quick example, consider Dragonhide - As Barkskin, but but the subject grows a thin layer of dragonlike scales - material component: a scrap of dragonhide. A 2nd level Sorc/Wizard spell.

A second question would be restricted spells, for example a witch's patron spells. Clearly, Willy the elements patron Witch will learn fireball as his 3ed level patron spell. Can Wicked Wanda the death patron Witch research fireball as a 3ed level spell? A spell that is balanced for one Witch should theoretically be balanced for another Witch...

A third question would be for the Words of Power Subsystem - can you research a WoP? Can you research them outside your normal class limits?


You are forgetting the spell research rules from the Gamemastery Guide.

Cost is 1,000 gp per level of the spell, but spells of level 1-3 take one week to research, level 4-6 spells take 2 weeks to research and level 7-9 spells take 4 weeks to research.

It also mentions bards and sorcerers researching spells. They do not get extra known spells, they just develop new known spells.

The downtime system of UCam is not interesting when it comes to researching spells. Too costly and it takes too much time.


pad300 wrote:

Regarding spell research, what does everyone feel about crossing spell lists by research?

I was thinking about the balancing of spells - in theory, a re-flavoured spell on a spell list from a caster of the same progression (ie all full casters - lets leave the summoner, bard, alchemist out of this), would be "balanced" with other spells. As a quick example, consider Dragonhide - As Barkskin, but but the subject grows a thin layer of dragonlike scales - material component: a scrap of dragonhide. A 2nd level Sorc/Wizard spell.

A second question would be restricted spells, for example a witch's patron spells. Clearly, Willy the elements patron Witch will learn fireball as his 3ed level patron spell. Can Wicked Wanda the death patron Witch research fireball as a 3ed level spell? A spell that is balanced for one Witch should theoretically be balanced for another Witch...

A third question would be for the Words of Power Subsystem - can you research a WoP? Can you research them outside your normal class limits?

Spell lists are not just a question of balance, it is also a question of flavor and class concept. If witch has access to fireball, it is because it is part of her flavor (and if she has access to that spell, she doesn't have access to others). If clerics heal and not wizards, it is in part a question of flavor (and class roles).

A class should't be able to do everything. Ultimately it is up to your GM. Your characte concept might help. A nature focused wizard might be able to research some druid spells, but not every spell he wants.

Liberty's Edge

goldomark wrote:

You are forgetting the spell research rules from the Gamemastery Guide.

Cost is 1,000 gp per level of the spell, but spells of level 1-3 take one week to research, level 4-6 spells take 2 weeks to research and level 7-9 spells take 4 weeks to research.

It also mentions bards and sorcerers researching spells. They do not get extra known spells, they just develop new known spells.

The downtime system of UCam is not interesting when it comes to researching spells. Too costly and it takes too much time.

Page 114 and 155 of the GMG, Creating a spell, second row:

"A optional system for researching new spells is outlined below."
Optional

The article in the D20PSRD you cite has condensed and simplifed what is written in the GMG and forgot to say that the whole system proposed is an optional system, not a basic rule.
The rules in Ultimate Campaign supersede the optional rules in the GMG.


Diego Rossi wrote:
goldomark wrote:

You are forgetting the spell research rules from the Gamemastery Guide.

Cost is 1,000 gp per level of the spell, but spells of level 1-3 take one week to research, level 4-6 spells take 2 weeks to research and level 7-9 spells take 4 weeks to research.

It also mentions bards and sorcerers researching spells. They do not get extra known spells, they just develop new known spells.

The downtime system of UCam is not interesting when it comes to researching spells. Too costly and it takes too much time.

Page 114 and 155 of the GMG, Creating a spell, second row:

"A optional system for researching new spells is outlined below."
Optional

The article in the D20PSRD you cite has condensed and simplifed what is written in the GMG and forgot to say that the whole system proposed is an optional system, not a basic rule.
The rules in Ultimate Campaign supersede the optional rules in the GMG.

No they do not. The rules in UCam are the downtime rules who are also optional.

The rule for from the GMG are different set of rules, that function outside of the downtime system. They are two separete system. It is just that one is really bad compared to the other. Ironically, it seems someone didn't do its research.

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