Just curious what people's thoughts are when comparing a Gunslinger with a gun-totin' Inquisitor?
At level 5, when the Gunslinger gets Dex to damage, an Inquisitor will get Bane for 5 rounds/day, and will have Judgments for 2/day already.
At level 11 the Gunslinger can get a Signature Deed, which could help out with damage if going Pistolero or the Bleed deed, but the Inquisitor gets Greater Bane at 12, and by this point should be able to use Bane for a good 20 rounds or so if using Extra/Extended Bane feats. Seems like they can outduel a Gunslinger. Maybe I'm missing something tho...?
I was running a Pistol wielding Inquisitor for a while. W/ rapid reload paper cartridges and a double barreled pistol I was putting out serious damage with my banes. We were doing this in skull and shackles. After speaking to my GM about it I rebuilt the character to use a heavy crossbow instead.
While I don’t know what the final numbers would be in my experience guns + bane just let you rack up the damage to ridiculous levels very quickly.
However I have not played a Gunslinger up to the same level so it’s a one sided comparison. Just my 2 cents.
Personally I've found with misfires that going all gunslinger is the best way to use guns as a primary weapon. If you are going with a gun using inquisitor without gunslinger, go for the quick-clear deed, it winds up being essential.
As for what racks up more damage, it kinda depends on the game but generally speaking a straight gunslinger will out-perform a gun-using inquisitor at higher levels. Taking level 12 as an example the gunslinger has BAB 12/7/2 versus the inquisitors 9/4, even if the per-attack damage is less the gunslinger is making 3 attacks for every 2 the inquisitor makes . Even with bane and justice judgement bonuses to hit, the inquisitor is not going to have a higher hit chance than the gunslinger because the gunslinger is so SAD (you mean there are other attributes besides dexterity?). If you have a DM who plays a seriously fluid movement based game where full attacks are rare, then inquisitor DPR should just barely pull ahead of gunslinger DPR (lower hit chance but bigger hits), but a more standard game will see the gunslinger doing more damage.
IMO, Gunslinger 5/Inquisitor X is a solid build, but single classed Inquisitor will have to spend a lot of his bane/judgments to be just mediocre with guns.
There's really not much point to staying Gunslinger beyond 5 for dex damage or 7 if you like Targeting like I do. I traditionally went Fighter or Ranger from there, but I never really considered going Inquisitor after. That's an intriguing idea.
There's really not much point to staying Gunslinger beyond 5 for dex damage or 7 if you like Targeting like I do. I traditionally went Fighter or Ranger from there, but I never really considered going Inquisitor after. That's an intriguing idea.
11th level pistoleros can take signature deed for Up Close and Deadly. 13th level pistoleros never misfire.
a player of mine has a gunslinger with a revolver.. he's always b%&+&ing about ammo cost. my monk has a zen archer.. The archer is such a better character.. he can actually do something other than shoot a gun, and his ammo is cheap..lol Also, the archer tends to kill things better anyways.. not a fan of the gunslinger.
In my last game session, an enemy cleric used pilphering hands on the gunslinger and stole his gun.. hilarious.. especially after the cleric successfully ran away.. and the GS is down a 4k gun.. he was NOT happy :(
Why would the inquisitor use a gun instead of a bow? A gun would fire very slowly, in comparison.
Not looking for a gun vs bow comparison, though I can certainly defend gun usage over bows, just don't want to derail this thread.
cnetarian wrote:
Taking level 12 as an example the gunslinger has BAB 12/7/2 versus the inquisitors 9/4, even if the per-attack damage is less the gunslinger is making 3 attacks for every 2 the inquisitor makes.
This is a very good point. I suppose a Gunslinger will usually have more attacks than an Inquisitor, but how much more damage will he actually do when you take Bane + Judgment into account? I haven't done the math, but I do think that the Gunslinger will come out on top, I just can't imagine it being that much higher. At level 10 the Inquisitor can also use Divine Power to get an extra attack along with the +3 attack bonus.
I suppose I may as well work out the math and see how things fall out. Curiously, is there any way for the Inquisitor to get rid of misfires besides using a Reliable weapon enchantment?
One thing to point out is an Inquisitor taking the Black Powder Inquisition is trading it for another Inquisition or Domain. This is not optimal in the slightest for an Inquisitor. The deeds and BaB that come with a Gunslinger make it a much better choice for a player wanting to play a gun wielding character.
I'm assuming this is a 20 point build, but I'm just putting in the important stats: Dex and Wis. I'm keeping them them same for both classes, 16 Dex, 14 Wis, with the Human +2 going to Dex and making it 18.
Using double-barrel weapon, just because.
The Inquisitor is using the Preacher archetype with Black Powder Inquisition. Preacher helps alleviate jamming gun problems. Inquisition helps with the feat issue. I'm staying away from Gunslinger 1/Inquisitor X intentionally, just to keep it simple for my calculations.
The Gunslinger is using the Pistolero archetype for Up Close and Deadly extra damage.
Gunslinger 5:
Dex: 19 (+1 at level 4)
Wis: 14
Feats: (1) Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot (Human), (3) Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (Gunslinger), (5) Deadly Aim
Attacks: +9/+9 = +5 BAB +4 Dex +1 Enhancement +1 PBS -2 Rapid Shot
Damage: 1d8 +7 = 1d8 pistol +5 Dex +1 Enhancement +1 PBS
Note: Can have 4 shots if shooting both barrels at once, but the attacks become +5/+5/+5/+5; Using Deadly Aim is another -2 to attacks, which is why I left it out here, but definitely a possibility. Pistolero could add 1d6 damage for 1 grit point, but this will happen too rarely to warrant inclusion at this point.
Inquisitor 5:
Dex: 19 (+1 at level 4)
Wis: 14
Feats (Teamwork feats replaced by Preacher ability): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) (free), Gunsmithing (free), (1) Amateur Gunslinger, Rapid Reload (Human), (3) Point-Blank Shot, (5) Precise Shot
Attacks: +8/+8 = +3 BAB +4 Dex +1 Enhancement +2 Bane +1 PBS -4 Double-Barrel
Damage: 1d8 +2d6 +4 = 1d8 pistol +1 Enhancement +2d6 Bane +2 Bane +1 PBS
Note: Bane is only available for 5 rounds at this point, which is relatively weak. In round 2 he can initiate Destruction Judgment for another +1 to damage, I suppose.
Level 5 Conclusion:
Easy win for the Gunslinger from what I see. Inquisitor does provide decent spells like CLW, Invisibility, See Invisibility, and Shield, so depending on the situation, they could be good, plus they have a great social skills, most likely higher initiative, among other useful abilities, but no denying Gunslinger's raw power here.
Gunslinger 8:
Dex: 22 (+1 at level 4,8; +2 belt)
Wis: 16 (+2 headband)
Feats: (1) Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot (Human), (3) Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (Gunslinger), (5) Deadly Aim, (7) Weapon Focus (Double-Barrel Pistol), ??? (Gunslinger)
Attacks: +8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3 = +8 BAB +6 Dex +2 Enhancement +1 PBS -2 Rapid Shot -4 Double-Barrel -3 Deadly Aim
Damage: 1d8 +15 = 1d8 pistol +6 Dex +2 Enhancement +1 PBS +6 Deadly Aim
Note: I have no clue what feat to take for 8th level. Still not including Up Close and Deadly because when you're getting 6 attacks per round, getting extra damage for 3 or so attacks in a day isn't worth mentioning yet. He could take Extra Grit, but the damage difference is still too meh to count.
Inquisitor 8:
Dex: 22 (+1 at level 4,8; +2 belt)
Wis: 16 (+2 headband)
Feats (Teamwork feats replaced by Preacher ability): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) (free), Gunsmithing (free), (1) Amateur Gunslinger, Rapid Reload (Human), (3) Point-Blank Shot, (5) Precise Shot, (7) Rapid Shot
Attacks: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6 = +6 BAB +6 Dex +2 Enhancement +2 Bane +1 PBS -2 Rapid Shot -4 Double-Barrel
Damage: 1d8 +2d6 +5 = 1d8 pistol +2 Enhancement +2d6 Bane +2 Bane +1 PBS
Damage (round 2+): 1d8 +2d6 +8 = 1d8 pistol +2 Enhancement +2d6 Bane +2 Bane +1 PBS +3 Destruction
Note: Less damage in round 1, but keeps up from round 2 on. Spells at this point can include GMW, and Magic Vestment, among others. He can also do both Destruction and Justice Judgments for damage and attack bonuses.
Level 8 Conclusion:
If this was level 7, it'd easily go to Gunslinger again due to the extra attack, but since Inquisitor gets it 1 level later, I thought it was more interesting comparing level 8.
This one is slightly harder to call, because after the first round, the damage is pretty equal. It's not quite equal, as I didn't count Up Close and Deadly, and Bane is still only lasting 8 rounds at this point, but the Inquisitor's versatility has improved a decent amount. Gunslinger can also do Targeting deed at this point, which wins in coolness points.
Also keep in mind that the Gunslinger has less attack bonuses to be able to keep up in damage, whereas Inquisitor can have pretty high attack bonuses due to being able to use two Judgments simultaneously. The Gunslinger can opt to not use Deadly Aim, but that'll lower his damage output quite a bit compared to the Inquisitor.
I'm not enough of a math cruncher to be able to know who wins pure damage, given the penalties that the Gunslinger has to take to keep up, and the variable of Up Close and Deadly.
Due to all that, I'm gonna say it's a draw here, though I really feel that the Inquisitor is a smidge ahead.
Gunslinger 12:
Dex: 27 (+1 at level 4,8,12; +4 belt)
Wis: 18 (+4 headband)
Feats: (1) Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot (Human), (3) Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (Gunslinger), (5) Deadly Aim, (7) Weapon Focus (Double-Barrel Pistol), ??? (Gunslinger), (9) ???, (11) Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly), ??? (Gunslinger)
Attacks: +14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4 = +12 BAB +8 Dex +3 Enhancement +1 PBS -2 Rapid Shot -4 Double-Barrel -4 Deadly Aim
Damage: 1d8 +3d6 +20 = 1d8 pistol +8 Dex +3 Enhancement +1 PBS +8 Deadly Aim +3d6 Up Close and Deadly
Note: I have no clue what feat to take for most of those feats from level 8+, probably Clustered Shot for one of them, not sure about the rest, but holy hell look at that 8 attacks for 1d8+3d6+20!!! Also, he's now 1 level away from never having to worry about a Misfire. That's a very big deal.
Inquisitor 12:
Dex: 27 (+1 at level 4,8,12; +4 belt)
Wis: 18 (+4 headband)
Feats (Teamwork feats replaced by Preacher ability): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) (free), Gunsmithing (free), (1) Amateur Gunslinger, Rapid Reload (Human), (3) Point-Blank Shot, (5) Precise Shot, (7) Rapid Shot, (9) Deadly Aim, (11) Extended Bane
Attacks: +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8 = +9 BAB +8 Dex +3 Enhancement +2 Bane +1 PBS -2 Rapid Shot -4 Double-Barrel -3 Deadly Aim
Damage: 1d8 +4d6 +12 = 1d8 pistol +3 Enhancement +4d6 Bane +2 Bane +1 PBS +6 Deadly Aim
Damage (round 2+): 1d8 +4d6 +17 = 1d8 pistol +3 Enhancement +4d6 Bane +2 Bane +1 PBS +6 Deadly Aim +5 Destruction
Note: Once again, less damage in round 1, but keeps up from round 2 on, but unfortunately the 2 extra attacks that the Gunslinger has should put him way further ahead. Spells at this point can include Divine Power, Greater Invisibility, and Stoneskin.
Level 12 Conclusion:
Gonna admit, I'm really surprised at just how insane Gunslinger's damage is. At the mid levels, the penalties to attacks just to keep up in damage is bothersome, but boy does it kick up a notch at level 11 with Signature Deed.
Inquisitor is no slouch either, but less attacks, and daily limit on Bane just can't keep up with Gunslinger's craziness.
Misfire will play a big role from level 13 on, as the Gunslinger will no longer have to worry about it. One can argue that the Inquisitor can get a Greater Reliable weapon, but that means the Gunslinger is free to enchant his weapon with, say, Holy for an additional 2d6 damage, while the Inquisitor has to settle for GMW + Greater Reliable enchants. I didn't really take Misfires into accout because as others have pointed out, going Gunslinger /Inquisitor X is a viable option.
Another element that I didn't take into account is that both classes can buy a Baldric Bane.
So... okay, yeah, Gunslinger has sold me in terms of pure damage. But personally, with that much damage per round, I'd rather take Inquisitor's defensive and utility capabilities, what with Stoneskin, Stalwart, Greater Invisibility, CLW, social skills bonuses, higher initiative, and Heal late game. Still, this was eye-opening to me.
EDIT: I kept reading elsewhere that the Gunslinger doesn't have to worry about Misfire at level 13, but on second look, I'm not sure how they're actually doing that. Would be nice to know.
I'd start any gun wielding character off with one level of gunslinger, just because the start-up investment of being able to use guns is so high otherwise. That also partially fixes the misfires problem, as you at least get quick clear right from the start.
Beyond that, a gunslinger 1 / inquisitor x is probably going to be outdamaged by a full gunslinger, but not by such a huge margin as to become useless, I'd think. Simple spells like divine favor and greater magic weapon probably are a big help. Especially the latter, as you really want to enchant your gun with reliable and distance, and GMW can provided the straight +x/+x.
For single classes, it's really a question of "what do you want?" The gunslinger is going to do more damage in a straight up fight, but if given time to prepare and cast a few spells the inquisitor is going to be just as good and have far more options outside of combat.
As a multiclass, it's absolutely doable. There is a local PFS player who has a Gunslinger (Musketeer) 5 / Inquisitor X. He flat out does more damage than anyone else in the area including pure gunslingers.
Through 13th level (GS5/I8) Bane will make the inquisitor more than able to outdamage a full gunslinger (+2 on attacks will make up for the lost BAB and it does 2D6 more damage - with the +2 enhancement bonus from bane being cancelled out by Musket Training at 13th level). Then you start to add in judgements.
When you consider spells, domains, and all the other goodies an inquisitor gets, it's pretty powerful. What do you lose by taking inquisitor levels? Your iterative attacks come a bit later and you get less bonus feats. You risk misfiring a bit more (although there are weapon enchantments that can take care of that for you). You do give up a lot of the deeds but past 5th level many of them rarely get used. You are one iterative attack behind at 6th, 11th, and 12th levels but even the rest of the time (until level 16).
If your campaign is going to level 15+ (especially 19+) then the pure gunslinger starts to look good again, but the gunquisitor is still far more versatile.
EDIT: I kept reading elsewhere that the Gunslinger doesn't have to worry about Misfire at level 13, but on second look, I'm not sure how they're actually doing that. Would be nice to know.
That's a feature of the Musket Master or Pistolero archetype. The base gunslinger does not have that ability.
As a multiclass, it's absolutely doable. There is a local PFS player who has a Gunslinger (Musketeer) 5 / Inquisitor X. He flat out does more damage than anyone else in the area including pure gunslingers.
This was more a comparison of the two not debating if you could successfully mix the two. The Prestige Class Shield Marshall is a good possibility if you were to mix the two.
Well, this is exactly what I was looking for.. I hope you guys are still looking into this one, specifically the Ender730 (would like to know how it worked out)
I had a built that worked Gunslinger1/Paladin X
Now, it had synergy with the Mysterious Stranger Archtype's deed Focus aim.. and I couldn't get enough of Smiting Evil on a two-barreled gun!
I'm working on a 11th level character.. and want to go with one of these builds.. or can a combination of the three of them be done?
Or is it better to keep it simple?
Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
(do consider the fixes that come with the wealth of an 11th lvl char)
I had a pure musket master and decided at level 10 - too late - to start taking levels in inquisitor instead so I could get some spellcasting happening. I didn't really have much to gain from continuing in gunslinger, and hadn't for a few levels. 7 (or maybe 8, 9 at the very latest) would've been a good time to change to inquisitor.
The ability to start being able to cast some divine spells (like, say, cure wounds!) and detect magic is a pretty nice improvement, alongside all the other inquisitor abilities, and they're both wisdom-oriented.
I took the Spellbreaker inquisitor archetype, but that's personal preference more than anything.
I'm not sure if the Inquisitor is worth the dip of 5lvls into, even though one would get Bane and all the other abilities, BAB and possible prgression in another class is highly worth the thought..
I do want to combine but at this point im not sure either if an all level class would be better instead..
I'd say that sticking to Gunslinger will net you the most damage if you go Pistolero. Keep in mind, you can always just purchase a Bane Baldric. Sure, it only lasts 5 rounds, but you can always buy more than one.
If you go Inquisitor or Paladin, do it for class abilities and spells, not for the damage alone, because the Gunslinger will simply outperform you. Being able to not misfire at level 13 means you can put up with a Misfire 1 until then, whereas the others have to purchase an expensive Reliable/Greater Reliable firearms. Never seen a comparison vs a paladin, but Ender did the rough calculations for Gunslinger vs Gun Inquisitor above.
