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You're awesome, Todd.
I'm with you!
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Hey Todd!
Recently I started a new Starfinder campaign, and the four horseman are to be the main antagonists. Seeing as your the expert on all things daemons I thought you could help answering a few of my daemon related questions.
How do the horsemen view robots and artificial intelligence? What about ordinary plants, and bacteria, etc.? What if anything are the horsemen fine with letting live?
What kind of starships do you think daemons would utilize?
If the Horsemen do wipe out all life (or everyone they want to wipe out) in the multiverse, what do they plan on doing afterwards?
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If they win, it's a beautiful day for relaxing on a corpse-choked beach.
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Who was your favourite character to develop for Book of the Damned that you hadn't worked on before?
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Hey Todd!
Recently I started a new Starfinder campaign, and the four horseman are to be the main antagonists. Seeing as your the expert on all things daemons I thought you could help answering a few of my daemon related questions.
How do the horsemen view robots and artificial intelligence? What about ordinary plants, and bacteria, etc.? What if anything are the horsemen fine with letting live?
What kind of starships do you think daemons would utilize?
If the Horsemen do wipe out all life (or everyone they want to wipe out) in the multiverse, what do they plan on doing afterwards?
Standard disclaimer that my opinions are just that, my opinions, and are not canonical unless it's in print or stated by a Paizo employee, which I am not.
That said, the position of the daemons as a whole on just what they want to accomplish, why they want to accomplish it, and what comes afterwards... it's a very blurry situation at times. Ultimately each individual daemon doesn't so much have an intellectual understanding of it all as just an innate and unceasing -need- to kill mortal life. They feel it, they hunger, they claw at themselves madly if they're unable to act upon that insatiable hunger.
The more intelligent daemons certainly have philosophical schools of thought on the issue that approach quasi-religion, and the Four don't openly take a position on any of them, though undoubtedly they have their own positions on the issue. I haven't had the space up to now to address this issue in print and explore the topic and just what those strains of thought might and how any of the Four (or their predecessors) might have positions on these.
Generally speaking the daemons want to obliterate all mortal life, defined as life that is empowered by positive energy, or which began as being empowered by positive energy. So they'll gleefully eat undead, but creatures like the scaeduinar which are wholly derived from negative energy simply aren't a concern for daemons. Robots and AI it boils down to 'do they have a soul'.
As far as starships: think about something literally created from mortal souls and powered by their combined misery and slow digestion of their essence. They probably don't aim to immediately kill occupants of other ships, but to fuse them into the ship's substructure to keep it powered.
What do the daemons think will happen once/if they succeed? Well that again boils down to an open question, and one which gnaws at daemons perpetually. They don't know. They speculate upon it, they philosophize upon it, and the Four have their own ideas about what -might- happen, but of course the one entity that might have known and could have settled that hollow, unanswerable question that eats at every daemon, the Oinodaemon, well... the Four betrayed and ate them (while being absolutely true to themselves in doing so, they do appear to have absolutely and royally f*cked up in the process, and the ramifications of that should the Bound Prince ever wake up... well it'll be interesting to say the least).
I have my own ideas on what might happen, or what the daemons -hope- might happen if they manage to succeed, but it's honestly best left as an open question to hang over both daemons and those who fight daemons. :)
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Who was your favourite character to develop for Book of the Damned that you hadn't worked on before?
Among what appeared in print, I think I had the most fun giving some more details to the harbingers Stygidvod and Xsistaid.
TTrelmarixian and Szuriel are personal favorites, and while I did get to add a little bit on them, most of their material was still there from BotD3. Likewise for Vorasha, though it was awesome to see her get an illustration!
All in all it was a genuinely fun project to work on! Hopefully I can add more details on them at some point in the future!
Merry Looming Apocalypse Christmas!
Asked this others, but while I'm asking: what is a favorite video-, computer-, and/or board game you've played? Table top? What about one or more of those youve not played? And what is the best of those you've played or not played?
Note: if you've not played it, you should probably have at least read it or otherwise had enough significant exposure to make an informed opinion... but it's also Okay if you are just a super-fan!
Also: you may not select either SF or PF as favorite or best - we'll just presuppose those are up there somewhere. :D That said, other similar games could count (Blue Rose, True20, 3.5, 3E, and so on are generally "different enough" to qualify, though none are expected answers.
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Merry Looming
ApocalypseChristmas!Asked this others, but while I'm asking: what is a favorite video-, computer-, and/or board game you've played? Table top? What about one or more of those youve not played? And what is the best of those you've played or not played?
Note: if you've not played it, you should probably have at least read it or otherwise had enough significant exposure to make an informed opinion... but it's also Okay if you are just a super-fan!
Also: you may not select either SF or PF as favorite or best - we'll just presuppose those are up there somewhere. :D That said, other similar games could count (Blue Rose, True20, 3.5, 3E, and so on are generally "different enough" to qualify, though none are expected answers.
Master of Orion 2 (PC), the entire Disgaea series (PS1-4), Shadowrun: Dragonfall (PC), and Dragon Age Inquisition (PC).
Tabletop if I can't pick PF/SF, my favorite is Shadowrun. I had the opportunity to play the game very early on in my RPG learning curve with some exceptional GMs. I haven't played since SR3 and there was a bunch of drama regarding the publisher and a lot of my favorite authors bailed (and made Eclipse Phase) but I'd love to play it again at some point. Likewise I haven't actually gotten to play Eclipse Phase, despite one of my college gaming group friends having written for the game.
I also have had very little exposure to World of Darkness (of any iteration), despite owning virtually a complete oWoD and a complete nWoD collection on my office bookshelves. I'll have to talk one of my friends into running something therein at some point.
Awesome!
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the entire Disgaea series (PS1-4),DOOD!
Etna is my hero <3
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Thanks you for your daemonic insights! I'll definitely use daemon soul ships in my game!
More questions...
1) When a new horseman takes office do they inherit the former horseman's apocalypse horse?
2) What is the relationship between the horsemen and their harbingers? Is it a boss employee type relationship, or do the harbingers pay service to the horsemen out of fear and/or reverence?
3) On page 43 of Horsemen of the Apocalypse, who is the illustration of?
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Thanks you for your daemonic insights! I'll definitely use daemon soul ships in my game!
More questions...
1) When a new horseman takes office do they inherit the former horseman's apocalypse horse?
2) What is the relationship between the horsemen and their harbingers? Is it a boss employee type relationship, or do the harbingers pay service to the horsemen out of fear and/or reverence?
3) On page 43 of Horsemen of the Apocalypse, who is the illustration of?
1) I would say yes, with the two of them more or less infecting one another and probably each changing the nature of the other to form the symbiosis that exists between Horseman and Apocalypse Horse (with the changes being more radical on the part of the Horse as they adapt in appearance and nature to fit their new rider).
2) It wildly varies. Some of them probably literally worship and fear their Horseman, while some harbingers like Vorasha see themselves as virtual equals and act as literal consorts (though in her case she has a monstrously naive notion of just where she and Trelmarixian actually stand even as she dreams of either taking his place or rising up to become a Fifth Horseman and truly equal to the Horseman of Famine). Some see it all as a political game (like Pavnuri who has at one point in time served all of the current Horseman and probably a good number of prior ones). The particular Horseman to harbinger relationship really boils down to a case by case basis.
While it -isn't canonical- as it isn't in print (though a few here have been confirmed as such in BotD3/BotD hardcover), here are my own ideas on which harbingers are vassals to which current (or even previous/vanished) Horseman (if applicable):
Aesdurath - Charon
Ajids - Szuriel
Anogetz - Szuriel
Arlachramas - Charon
Braismois - Charon
Cixyron - Apollyon
Corosbel - Charon
Diceid - Trelmarixian
Ealdeez - Apollyon
Folca - Charon
Geon - Szuriel
Hastrikhal - Szuriel
Jacarkas - Trelmarixian
Laivatiniel - Trelmarixian
Llamolaek - NONE
Mneoc - Charon
Nalmungder - NONE (formerly Balishek)
Osolmyr - NONE (formerly Ceolaeros the Twice Fallen)
Pavnuri - Shifting (currently Szuriel)
Roqorolos - Apollyon
Ruapceras - Szuriel
Slandrais - Trelmarixian
Stygidvod - Charon
Tamede - Apollyon
Tresmalvos - Apollyon
Uaransaph - Apollyon
Vorasha - Trelmarixian
Xsistaid - Trelmarixian
Zaigasnar - NONE
Zelishkar - Szuriel
3) That would be Yrsinius the vanished Horseman of Pestilence.
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Your answers are very helpful and appreciated! :)
I'm don't remember reading about Balishek and Ceolaeros the Twice Fallen anywhere. What can you tell me about the two?
Also the original Horseman of War's description is pretty vague. Any chance you can share more details on him?
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Your answers are very helpful and appreciated! :)
I'm don't remember reading about Balishek and Ceolaeros the Twice Fallen anywhere. What can you tell me about the two?
Also the original Horseman of War's description is pretty vague. Any chance you can share more details on him?
Let's start off by just acknowledging that we're wildly departing the realms of canon and into my intent or just my thoughts or stuff I've toyed with in my home campaign that aren't strictly in print. I'm not Paizo staff so my thoughts aren't canonical.
That said, Balishek has been mentioned in passing, in the description of 'Balishek's Crater' in Abaddon in BotD3. And let me skip topics here since these link...
As far as Horeksim goes, I can't say much about them because as written they were originally going to be a giant intentional blank spot about whom there wasn't much known or to be honest much of import other than being seemingly killed by Saranrae. However the line about them being the original Horseman of War was added during development so any questions about that would need to be addressed to present staff, or to either Wes or Sutter as to their thoughts at the time as I believe they did development on BotD3.
Given that, and given the heavy allusions present in the text elsewhere with regards to just who and what Balishek was, I would either assume Tabris got this point wrong about Horeksim being the original Horseman of War, or that the reason behind Balishek's death literally had their kindred Four restart the list of Horsemen of War and just skip Balishek as the actual first and assign their successor Horeksim as the first Horseman of War. Whatever Balishek's crime and whatever killed Balishek, it terrified the Four, and while it isn't outright stated in the text, you can just stand anywhere on Abaddon and look directly up and that lidded eye of an eclipse overhead is a tangible reminder of who killed them and perhaps Balishek's death was what ultimately got the Four thinking about their status and their relationship with their Maker.
I will add however that regardless of how you handle the disconnect between Balishek and Horeksim, if you still place Horeksim very early on in the list of Horsemen of War, that mention of being killed by Saranrae might plausibly give you entry to add in conflict with other celestials and a link to where and how Lamentation of the Faithless came into the possession of the line of various Horsemen of War as akin to a badge of station.
Ceolaeros hasn't appeared in print and so as such is just a character in my home campaign. They've not appeared in person there either, but in that campaign I mentioned them as the only Horseman of Abaddon to have ever willingly abdicated their position. They gained their position abruptly after making a deal with Tegresin the Laughing Fiend (who was the primary antagonist of my home game) and thereby gaining an artifact linked to the Oinodaemon. Their deal stipulated a price of one million souls for every year that they reigned as one of the Four, or a single favor to be named later. 1000 years into his reign, the favor was called in and Ceolaeros abdicated and vanished, yet to return and with no clue as to what was asked of them or what it required, other than a sneer and a knowing chuckle on Tegresin's lips.
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As far as I'm concerned your answers are cannon for my home game.
Are you at liberty to give me physical descriptions of the three? If not I'll use the following:
Balishek - Mostly featureless humanoid save for an eye made of lava, appears to be made of bleak and dust clay. Wears imposing helmet/armor made from old stone.
Horeksim - A beetle humanoid hybrid, made of a rotting diamonds. Spiky.
Ceoleros - Its head is square shaped head with a crater where the eyes should be. Humanoid in shape with awkward limbs and body wrapped in cloth. Its Wings are badly tattered and seem useless.
What office position did Ceoleros hold?
Are there any other horsemen not listed in the Former Horsemen section you can tell me about?
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As far as I'm concerned your answers are cannon for my home game.
Are you at liberty to give me physical descriptions of the three? If not I'll use the following:
Balishek - Mostly featureless humanoid save for an eye made of lava, appears to be made of bleak and dust clay. Wears imposing helmet/armor made from old stone.
Horeksim - A beetle humanoid hybrid, made of a rotting diamonds. Spiky.
Ceoleros - Its head is square shaped head with a crater where the eyes should be. Humanoid in shape with awkward limbs and body wrapped in cloth. Its Wings are badly tattered and seem useless.What office position did Ceoleros hold?
Are there any other horsemen not listed in the Former Horsemen section you can tell me about?
Ceolaeros was a very early Horseman of Pestilence.
Very very non-canon fiction I wrote that features Ceolaeros.
http://pathfinderchronicler.net/i-love-you-even-now-in-the-only-way-i-under stand-by-todd-stewart/
The published list of former Horsemen isn't comprehensive nor intended as such. That said Charon is the original Death and it's strongly implied that there have only been two Horsemen of Pestilence: Lyutheria and Trelmarixian. Assuming of course that Tabris got his information from truthful sources. I like to leave that an open question.
I've got a few from my home game, but none I've done much with beyond more musings on Balishek and Yrsinius.
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Very very non-canon fiction I wrote that features Ceolaeros.
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Ealdeez - ApollyonOh?
Two points on the rationale for this one here:
1) I desperately wanted to have the assignments of harbinger loyalty end up divisible by 4, just for the sake of some poetic symmetry (though I wouldn't make this a hard rule, and I left several harbingers as either exiled or willingly eschewing presence within any Horseman's court by virtue of past history or lingering loyalty to a deposed member of the Four).
2) While Ealdeez could arguably be assigned to Szuriel, there's a certain connection with their portfolio and concerns to a jungle environment, and that can just as easily be parlayed into tropical diseases. So "reversion" in the same sense as a bestial rejection of organized society and a descent into barbarism, but also a willing embrace of the worst elements of a Green Hell sort of environment and showing that you can endure, survive, and turn that upon others.
Keep in mind that for virtually all of the harbingers except for maybe Vorasha and Folca, there was word count lost for space concerns elsewhere in the book, which happens on most every book as things get revised and shifted around to accommodate. So the rationale behind any given harbinger being in a given court of one of the Four (in the list from my home game above) relies on a lot of detail that didn't necessarily make it into print (but of course neither did a list of harbinger allegiance, so it's sort of a moot point).
Does that explain?
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It's a shame that most all the harbingers got their descriptions cut down, but perhaps it's better we mortals don't know some things. Are you able to share any of the lost harbinger descriptions?
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What is your favorite Disgaea game?
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What is your favorite Disgaea game?
Either the original, Hour of Darkness, or Disgaea 3: Absence of Justice, though D2 A Brighter Darkness is up there as well.
Basically if it contains Etna as a major character it's awesome, though Raspberyl in Absence of Justice is a supremely well crafted "delinquent" demon.
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How do you feel about demon dragons/dragon demons? Beyond the abishai in FR lore, I haven't seen much on that theme.
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Ealdeez - ApollyonOh?Two points on the rationale for this one here:
1) I desperately wanted to have the assignments of harbinger loyalty end up divisible by 4, just for the sake of some poetic symmetry (though I wouldn't make this a hard rule, and I left several harbingers as either exiled or willingly eschewing presence within any Horseman's court by virtue of past history or lingering loyalty to a deposed member of the Four).
2) While Ealdeez could arguably be assigned to Szuriel, there's a certain connection with their portfolio and concerns to a jungle environment, and that can just as easily be parlayed into tropical diseases. So "reversion" in the same sense as a bestial rejection of organized society and a descent into barbarism, but also a willing embrace of the worst elements of a Green Hell sort of environment and showing that you can endure, survive, and turn that upon others.
Keep in mind that for virtually all of the harbingers except for maybe Vorasha and Folca, there was word count lost for space concerns elsewhere in the book, which happens on most every book as things get revised and shifted around to accommodate. So the rationale behind any given harbinger being in a given court of one of the Four (in the list from my home game above) relies on a lot of detail that didn't necessarily make it into print (but of course neither did a list of harbinger allegiance, so it's sort of a moot point).
Does that explain?
Ye!
Also, a Plague of Beasts :3
So what do you like about daemons in preference of the 'loths of old?
What do you like about the 'loths of old in preference of daemons?
(Note: you may draw on any lore - so long as you clarify where it came from (to the best of your knowledge; I just like hunting down lore, and having editions helps, though you shouldn't feel obligated to cite sources unless you'd want to), it can be as current as 5e, or as old as 0e, depending).
Similar comparison: proteans to slaadi (and reverse)?
Your baby the Mastrom (and PF's outer planes/cosmology in general) v. the old (and new) D&D cosmology/cosmologies?
Thanks!
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How do you feel about demon dragons/dragon demons? Beyond the abishai in FR lore, I haven't seen much on that theme.
They can be cool but they also have to fit the world. Dragons carry a lot of conceptual baggage at times, so it makes adding in dragon elements a bit difficult?
That said, there's one harbinger that takes the form of a dragon (albeit one shorn of his own wings, eyeless and oozing molten black tar from his mouth, and with a back erratically dotted with dozens of haphazardly grafted wings of other creatures). Additionally the harbinger Vorasha also has some subtle draconic elements.
Then there's Tegresin the Laughing Fiend (whatever the hell he/she/it actually is in canon) whose shadow takes upon a draconic appearance which is at odds with his physical form.
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Thank you. Have to consider.
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So what do you like about daemons in preference of the 'loths of old?
What do you like about the 'loths of old in preference of daemons?
(Note: you may draw on any lore - so long as you clarify where it came from (to the best of your knowledge; I just like hunting down lore, and having editions helps, though you shouldn't feel obligated to cite sources unless you'd want to), it can be as current as 5e, or as old as 0e, depending).
Similar comparison: proteans to slaadi (and reverse)?
Your baby the Mastrom (and PF's outer planes/cosmology in general) v. the old (and new) D&D cosmology/cosmologies?
Thanks!
Oh boy, this is a doozy of a question! XD
I had a chance to write Pathfinder's daemons from the ground up without having to work from any preexisting canon, so there was an immense amount of freedom there. Secondly the PF daemons began with a solid underlying theme in place (that they represent aspects of mortal death) versus the 'loths who had virtually nothing in 1e, an amazing backstory in 2e, and then every edition since then has largely downplayed them or just plain screwed up when it came to them (really 5e? Created by night hags and possibly with Asmodeus involved? I don't even.)
Without a prior canon to work from and without having even OGL themes to hearken back to for the most part, it's all fresh territory. That's a beautiful thing that I feel seriously, genuinely blessed to have had the opportunity to work on. I also had and have some amazing editors and developers who let me have that room to develop my own ideas but who also had mind to occasionally reign me in and cut out stuff that I'm glad that they did. I'm glowingly pleased with how everything daemonic has turned out in Pathfinder.
The 'loths now. I... I like them more than daemons... that's difficult to say, but it's also almost entirely because I'm a gigantic fangirl/fanboy for 2e Planescape. That setting was among my first exposures to D&D and RPGs in general and it has left an indelible mark on my preferences and my design approach. Plus some of the stuff that McComb, Vallese, Cook, Cook, and others did on that product line are just freaking brilliant! My own contributions in print to the setting have been serious works of joy, and that's even before you get into the fact that I've written several thousand pages of fanfiction for the setting (largely based on my first campaign in the setting which was laser focused on 'loth internal politics and early planar history).
The 'loths have two major things going for them: baernaloths and arcanaloths.
The baern were just such an amazing idea of these primordial ur-fiends who'd largely succumbed to the hideous spiritual wasting of their own native plane to the point that most of them despite their power and despite their trove of malign secrets... they simply didn't care enough to really act anymore, consumed by their own depression and suffering. But there were The Demented, a cabal of baernaloths who'd gone "mad" and rather than fall into that state of suffering quiescence they did precisely the opposite and acted like omnipresent puppetmasters above the 'loths, playing the same long game of universal ruin that they had since they'd first been birthed by the abstract concept of Evil itself. Unless it's all just a lie by the 'loths. Pray that it's all just a lie.
I go a start writing by writing 'loth fanfiction including fleshing out The Demented (of whom only one has been explicitly named courtesy of me in Dragon magazine in the article 'Multiple Dementia'). I set their number at 13 and so far in the past fifteen years or so I've managed to finish 10 of those stories, including one a year or so ago as the most recent one. They're possibly my favorite concept in RPGs.
Then there's the arcanaloths. Say what you will about them, but damn it those jackal-headed 'totally not furries' innate spellcasting greater yugoloths had freaking style! Most of the ones presented in print like A'kin and Shemeska were brilliantly written and conceived on almost every level. They oozed plot and metaplot and they and all the other fuzzy bastards in their caste were the most immediately relateable of the 'loths and the ones you were most likely to interact with as mortals. They were incredibly "mortal" in motivations and appearances and I've heard them as a group being described as "chattyloths".
They make for quintessentially intelligent, smug, sadistic, and so often exceptionally petty and personable villains and even self-centered allies of convenience. Of course they'll knife you in the back eventually, but damn it's going to be a fun ride until then.
Shemes(h)ka the Marauder is for me the quintessential D&D villain, hands down, and I'm proud of the work I did with her in Dungeon magazine for a 4e Demonomicon article on her (though some of the best stuff got cut because it didn't fit the 4e conceits put in place - which I genuinely regret seeing cut, especially as how 5e has walked back much of those 4e'isms and they've name-dropped the Marauder a bit of late which makes me strongly suspect that they'll do something with the setting)
It also says something that not only have I used Shemeska as a primary antagonist in about a decade worth of Planescape campaigns, but that I've pretty much adopted her as an online handle and avatar on pretty much every online RPG forum that you can find. Here is really the one exception to that where I go by my own name because I'm a contributor and it's easier for everyone if I'm not moonlighting as a fox-headed 'loth in a pretty dress.
I'll write something long-winded on the Maelstrom vs Limbo and slaadi vs proteans, but later today.
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What other JRPG games have you played? Any favorites?
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Similar comparison: proteans to slaadi (and reverse)?Your baby the Mastrom (and PF's outer planes/cosmology in general) v. the old (and new) D&D cosmology/cosmologies?
The proteans are probably my favorite thing that I've created, and even more so than daemons, they're something that I've had the most leeway in writing on. I do wish that I could go back and explicitly add in some language to avoid the notion that the naunet/imentesh/keketar trio of proteans are the only types. There are probably an infinite variety of proteans, though it's arguable that those three are the most prominent in Golarion's local cosmological shallow of the Maelstrom.
I tried to give reasons for protean antipathy towards non-chaotic creatures, but behavior that wasn't just 'we will eat you' (though with naunet that might be more frequent). The imentesh are chatty and duplicitous, and keketars are brilliant and terrifying since their brains are perpetually being blasted by the Maelstrom talking directly to them. And newer proteans like (but not limited to) azuretzi, pelagastr, hegessik, and izfiitar expand the options and tendencies in behavior and motivation. They're chaos incarnate, they should be myriad in motivation and form. I tried to add to that by having protean "society" be "organized" in the myriad Choruses, with each having its own unique overarching goal, but being capable of change if its keketars receive or at least interpret the Maelstrom as desiring differently. Any given protean isn't perpetually bound to any given Chorus either, but they're free to come and go as they feel the desire to associate and listen. It's all a very personal decision for each of them.
I could easily write an entire book on proteans/The Maelstrom, so please repeatedly request from Paizo that they have me do such a thing. ;)
Proteans benefit from having been created with the idea that they were going to be the heralds of Chaos from the start. Slaadi on the other hand (and all due respect for the creative work of Charles Stross) were created very early on in D&D's history when there wasn't a truly fleshed out and unified cosmological model and I'm not convinced that the slaadi were even created with the intention that they be the principal representatives of Chaos taken physical form, but rather kludged into that role after the fact because there wasn't anything else created that was from Limbo. Now the 2e Planescape folks did a fantastic job with fleshing out the slaadi and giving them in an-world history to justify their paradoxically hierarchical society and caste structure, but in editions since then occasionally I wonder if some people even read the 2e material because the slaadi are often described as more evil than not, or inexplicably linked to a mortal FR race when it doesn't even make a bit of sense given what they are.
Slaadi have unfortunately too often been used as either unintelligent monsters that just to eat you, or used for comic relief. The best depictions of slaadi IMO are Xanxost the blue slaad used as one of the in-character narrators in 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' in 2e, and a quartet of green slaadi used as antagonists in Paul Kemp's excellent novel 'Dawn of Night'. Kemp is also just a damn fine writer.
As far as PF's cosmology versus D&D/Planescape, to tell the truth I don't actually have a preference. While the former I had a huge role in creating and defining many of them (though I'll note that the nested shell / onion structure of the inner sphere and the duality of First World and Shadow was already a design concept in place before I stepped in, to give credit because while I wrote most of the word count on this stuff, nobody creates in a vacuum). So yes, I've got a personal attraction to and seriously pride in PF's Great Beyond cosmology because I've had such a role in writing in and I really enjoy it! You should see me getting to run a game in Galisemni or anywhere else on PF's planes, I'm just all smiles.
At the same time the D&D/Planescape cosmology was such a formative influence on me and was really some of my first exposure to gaming in general, and while I've contributed to the setting, it still feels to me like this great work and I'm just a tiny fan.
The Maelstrom is itself written to encompass some of the thematic elements of the old 2e Deep Ethereal in that it's alluded to be a potential pathway between wildly different cosmologies. 2e Planescape used imagery of these realities all existing like soap bubbles drifting on the surface of the dark and trackless ocean of the Ethereal deep, while for PF I used imagery of the deep Maelstrom aka the Cerulean Void as the one absolutely infinite outer plane with the Great Beyond being only a local tidal shallow of a vast and unknowable deep with a myriad and presumably infinite number of realities on its far and unknowable shores.
So while I don't have a true preference at the moment, it's quite likely that over time as PF's cosmology evolves and expands both with my own additions and those of other folks as well, it might reach a point where it has matured enough and gotten enough really cool ideas that I prefer it. Ask me again after I've had a chance to read Planar Adventures some time next year. :)
AWESOME~!
Thank you!
I love hearing more stuff, and it's nice to see how the madness and mental instability come through in more unfiltered writing like here - for me, it was a little difficult to recognize what you were going for in the Bestiary entries, while it suddenly makes so much since, as-expressed here.
What is your opinion on the idea of Leng and the Dreamlands, and PF's Region of Dreams and how to those compare to things like the Dal Quor, or other D&D variants of the Region of Dreams?
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Oooo... Who are you top three favourite NPCs from Uncaged that aren't Arcanoloths?
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Oooo... Who are you top three favourite NPCs from Uncaged that aren't Arcanoloths?
Qaida - because there's a special place in my heart for straight up evil aasimar with a skull-shaped mimir.
Verden - Because the Prolongers were awesome, and just for the amazing description given about how her eyes are alive but -devoid- of life, and how staring is like falling into a cold, bottomless well. She's functionally immortal and absolutely obsessed and terrified of death so much that she has more or less ceased being able to truly enjoy her own life. She's a complex and downright pitiable character rather than a true, monstrous villain.
And last but not least:
Seamusxanthuszenus - How can't you love a self-titled 'Slayer of Fiends, Merchant Most Excellent, and Purveyor of Death'?! Mephits in general are just a joy to use in a game, and dust mephits running their own shop full of dead things for sale? Rocking! Plus there's his association with Adamok Ebon (who would be #4 on my list for many reasons but you only asked for my top 3), and the fact that I used this guy to a great extent in one of my home games. My players somehow got on his free sample product mailing list: which is to say that they ended up reaching into their mailbox and irregularly getting a handful of putrescent squirrel, an unidentified liver, or something else in various states of decomposition leaking all over their normal mail.
Eventually one PC had it up to his ears with the little death obsessed snot, and went down to the mephit's shop and threatened to stuff him into his own hat. A "fight" ensued, and Seamusxanthuszenus threw a kidney at the PC and promptly rolled a critical hit and shouted, "There's one more where that came from!"
Also my players made me talk in a squeaky voice for him, so of course I did, and so of course they kept going back to his shop just to make me talk in the voice. XD
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AWESOME~!
Thank you!
I love hearing more stuff, and it's nice to see how the madness and mental instability come through in more unfiltered writing like here - for me, it was a little difficult to recognize what you were going for in the Bestiary entries, while it suddenly makes so much since, as-expressed here.
What is your opinion on the idea of Leng and the Dreamlands, and PF's Region of Dreams and how to those compare to things like the Dal Quor, or other D&D variants of the Region of Dreams?
I will note that I didn't write the bestiary entries in Bestiary 2. I did however write the ones in Bestiary 6 (and the longer entries for the proteans that first appeared in various installments of the 'Hell's Rebels' AP). I also have a license of ramble online here, and for proteans it's quite likely that that adds a little something. :)
Leng and the Dreamlands are awesome. I have a serious love of all things Lovecraft related, and while I haven't been involved much in PF's exploration of the Great Old Ones, when appropriate I've added in some subtle Easter eggs to some more obscure bits of the expanded Lovecraft writing circle (such as Clark Ashton Smith).
As to the more specific question about comparisons, I can't really say much about how PF's Leng and Dreamlands match up with Eberron's Dal Quor because I've never played or run a game in Eberron or read it enough in depth to do so. I will however say that I have a deep and abiding appreciation for the work that Bruce Cordell did with dreamscapes in 2e Planescape's Guide to the Ethereal Plane. It's probably my favorite thing of his that I've read and it probably inspired some of my own work on Pathfinder's dreamscapes/Dreamlands/Dimension of Dreams, for what portions I'm responsible for.
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1) Have the daemons changed at all since the gap?
2) Which harbingers are the most powerful, least powerful, etc.?
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Huh, so what do you see in Ebon (not that I disagree, just curious)?
Are there any Uncaged NPCs you aren't so fond of?
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1) Have the daemons changed at all since the gap?
2) Which harbingers are the most powerful, least powerful, etc.?
Unfortunately I'm woefully unprepared to answer that question. While I've got all the Starfinder books, I haven't had the time to read them to the extent and attention to detail that I can write for it, and as such I haven't put much thought into how concepts I've worked on for Pathfinder would shift as pertaining to Starfinder.
I can see the harbingers ranks adjusting to accommodate some more advanced tech concepts for dealing death, and likewise the Four embracing more advanced tech to bring themselves closer to obliterating mortal life. I suspect the Oblivion Compass in Abaddon has ticked a degree closer to midnight as well.
I also suspect that the Four have insinuated that they/their methods of editing historical records pertaining to themselves and their stations (that are even apparent in the Book of the Damned to an extent) had something to do with the Gap (even if they had nothing to do with it of course).
Vorasha is likely the most powerful, and arguably the most likely to die at some point because she's being fattened up by Trelmarixian for just that purpose. Llamolaek likewise is among the most powerful even if they're dwelling in exile outside the courts of the Four (they were a former Horseman after all). And due to his imprisonment, Zelishkar is near the bottom, though at his height of power and influence pre-imprisonment he was among the most powerful.
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Huh, so what do you see in Ebon (not that I disagree, just curious)?
Are there any Uncaged NPCs you aren't so fond of?
The bladelings are just really cool, and there's relatively little that has been done with them. Plus there's Zoronor the Blood Forest... that's just an incredibly cool name and an even cooler concept (and I did a ton with it in one of my home campaigns, with Adamok Ebon being a key NPC in the campaign).
As for why Adamok specifically? She's really the one NPC who openly and willingly serves Shemeska the Marauder not because she must, not because she's being blackmailed, nor out of fear, but because she wants to. She's the one NPC that really the Marauder doesn't seem to have anything on, and I've always seen a bit of mutual respect there. They understand exactly who the other is, and their working relationship is just that and they really don't seem to have any illusions or notions of screwing the other over. Adamok is given targets and Adamok kills them, and the Marauder pays her and lets her do her own things on the side. To be perfectly honest I think Adamok is the one person who one day could simply leave Sigil and never come back and the Marauder wouldn't stop her.
I genuinely like all of the Uncaged NPCs, though obviously a good number of them I've never actually used except for mentioning them or having them show up at meetings of the Advisory Council, etc.
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Did you ever do anything major with Patch, Ylem, and/or Rule-of-Three?
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Did you ever do anything major with Patch, Ylem, and/or Rule-of-Three?
Unfortunately not much. The first two never made an appearance in any of my campaigns or one shot sessions, though Rule-of-Three appeared a few times in the campaign that was set as a sequel to my storyhour campaign. That one was rather heavy with tanar'ri (or at least with tanar'ri in service to Pale Night, since her backstory was one part of the metaplot of that game).
For better or for worse, my use of the Uncaged NPCs revolved around those who interacted with the Marauder and any who were involved with any factions or non-faction interests that the PCs themselves were tangled up with.
Easily IMO, Uncaged was the single best NPC supplement in RPG history.
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When you do figure out what the daemons are up to in Starfinder be sure to let me know! ;)
How does a harbinger become one of the horsemen? Are there rituals involved, or is simply killing one of the current horsemen enough?
Could a non daemon become one of the four?
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When you do figure out what the daemons are up to in Starfinder be sure to let me know! ;)
How does a harbinger become one of the horsemen? Are there rituals involved, or is simply killing one of the current horsemen enough?
Could a non daemon become one of the four?
Good question, and I'm sure that the Four have no desire to provide an answer. It also depends on if you define being "one of the Four" as just a title and a position, or something more beyond that, with a concomitant investiture of power that's part of that station and title.
I would suggest that slaying the former Horseman isn't actually required, given that Apollyon took his position among the Four without doing so. His predecessor Yrsinius may very well still be alive, and that brings a question as to what would happen if Yrsinius returned? Would there be two Horsemen of Pestilence? Would there be Five Horsemen?
My very non-canonical answer is that it's both a title and an investiture of power inherent to holding the title and gaining the approval of the other members of the Four to be counted among them. It also requires something else: participation in the yearly rites and rituals wherein the Four worship, mock, bless, torture, devour, and beg the forgiveness of the Oinodaemon. I suspect that only upon acknowledgement of the other members of the Four can a potential Horseman actually see and gain entry to the prison/tomb/temple of the Oinodaemon at Abaddon's heart, look up into the open eye of their progenitor, and there feast upon its perpetually regenerating flesh and gain some crucial connection and authority over their claimed domain and portion of the plane itself.
Could a non-daemon aspire to become a Horseman? Yes absolutely. Would the process of becoming a Horseman completely transform them into a daemon themselves? Absolutely in every way.
Could a creature sneak into the oinodaemon's cage and preform the rites without permission? Or just grab a bit of flesh and clone the oinodaemon's body?
(Hypothetically speaking, naturally.)
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Could a creature sneak into the oinodaemon's cage and preform the rites without permission? Or just grab a bit of flesh and clone the oinodaemon's body?
(Hypothetically speaking, naturally.)
That location is probably more difficult to enter than one of the personal domains of the one of the Four. Every single Horseman since there were Horseman in charge of Abaddon has probably invested a portion of their own power keeping that location hidden from sight, scoured from universal memory, and warded more than their own person. They want to be absolutely sure that nothing goes in and out except for themselves.
Nothing is of course impossible if there's a good enough campaign plot to justify it, but this is right up there with a level 1 PC picking the lock to Rovagug's Dead Vault.
Entering in a non-physical capacity, say in a dream, if a PC interacted in some capacity with an artifact linked to the Oinodaemon... that's something that I'd pull in a campaign for instance. Not that the PC might know what was going on until it was too late and they'd unwittingly taken steps during a campaign that resulted in waking the maybe-dead-maybe-divine-it's-complicated thing up.
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What exactly is Withered Footsteps of the Dire Shepherd?
The Oblivion Compass isn't counting down to the extinction of mortal life, but instead to when the Oinodaemon regains his power?
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What exactly is Withered Footsteps of the Dire Shepherd?
The Oblivion Compass isn't counting down to the extinction of mortal life, but instead to when the Oinodaemon regains his power?
It's an in-world book that was described in BotD3. The section got cut for space in the BotD hardcover, so you'll need to look to the original for the text. Basically though it's ancient, contains voluminous details on souls, magic that uses souls, and how to create soul-eating undead and other monsters. It's given near religious respect by daemons, and complete copies will actively self-edit so as to ensure the integrity and spread of its information.
I'll note that 'The Dire Shepherd' appears in Undead Revisited as one of the entities that Devourers will invoke and appear to have conversations with. Read into that as you will. There's no canonical hard answer, just a giant plot hook. In my home game of course I have one possible answer that I ran with.
That's all in print at this point.
As for the Oblivion Compass, that short story of mine isn't canonical, nd in published material it isn't given a hard answer (I do that sort of thing a lot...). It alludes to counting down the Fours' progress towards the end of mortal life, but they might not understand it themselves. It's presumed to be a construction of the Oinodaemon (it's also a recycled concept from my home game from years back in very different form).
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I blanked, does Sigil undergo seasonal weather patterns?
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I blanked, does Sigil undergo seasonal weather patterns?
To my knowledge it isn't addressed anywhere. That said, I expect that it undergoes patterns of weather due to vaguely regular patterns of portals opening to bring in water, wind, etc. It likely isn't four standard seasons though, and the patterns probably sprawl over the course of years, and sages probably make a lot of money trying to interpret the pattern (and possibly ways to influence them).
That's actually a really cool question to ask!
I know I've got a group in my home game's Galisemni that is heavy into prophecy and divination to determine the weather and the path that their city follows as it drift about the Maelstrom in relation to other planes.