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I have little experience with the Magus, and none with the Eldritch Knight. I wonder whether anyone has basis for comparing the two.
The EK has both full BAB progression and full caster ability, while the Magus has only 3/4 BAB and limited casting ability. The EK can replicate the Msgus' ability to avoid arcane spell failure with mithral armor and a feat or two. On the other hand, the Magus can combine mêlée and magic in ways that the EK cannot, plus the magus has his arcane pool and magus arcana.
The main difference is that the EK wins out over the long run due to a superior spell list and the availability of level 9 spells, which it can obtain by level 19. If you're playing a long game, the Wizard / Fighter / EK is better at the end, but slightly lackluster at the beginning-mid game.
Short version is EK=more casting Magus=more hitting.
Additionally, magus lose a lot of steam after level 10, while EK is quite weak the first levels. Magus has more action economy being able to full attack and cast at the same time, but EK has the bigger guns. As far as damage goes, the magus wins out hands down, but the EK has a lot more flexibility and take utility spells way faster (like TP and sending).
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I usually play in a PFS setting, so I am more interested in low- to midlevel characters. As much as I would like to try playing an Eldritch Knight, I probably won't, for that reason.
So far, my magus has played only once, and he was the only caster in the party. That meant that my style of play was really more EK than magus - sometimes I behaved as a wizard ("HA! Look at the pretty colors!") and sometimes I just waded into combat.
Anyway, I wasn't seeking advice so much as wondering what other players had observed.
EDIT: Of course, having a free +1 weapon at first level is a nice little treat for the magus.
In a PFS game, Magus is much better, no question. EK doesn't even get into the prestige class until PFS is half over, and being behind the 2 CL and a few BAB and hit points will take a while longer for the PrC to help ameliorate.
I also think Magus is generally better unless you want to be a caster primarily, in which case you should probably just do that w/o EK at all.
Magus is easier to run, all the abilities work together.
EK has the Valley of Suck before you get 2nd level spells. Magus doesn't. Once you get 2nd level spells as an EK, it's comparatively smooth sailing.
First, an EK build should be rocking Still Spell. You've got more spells per day, faster progression on your slots, and it's one feat (and allows any armor you want to wear - hello Adamantine Plate) rather than two. For that second feat you freed up, pick up Arcane Blast.
Why Arcane Blast, you ask? That's a sucky ability! Its damage is awful! Even Burning Hands does more damage for a 1st level slot!
Here's why:
1) Supernatural ability, not spell-like. No concentration checks.
2) Untyped energy damage. No energy resistance.
3) Not a spell. No spell resistance.
4) Gives a Wizard spontaneous casting - load up all the utility spells and convert them into damage spells if needed. They won't be needed as much; as an EK, you're an adequate meleeist, but it means you never have to spend time deciding between damage causing spells or utility spells.
For an EK, focus on spells that don't require saving throws; because you're doing a "I hit things" build on top of a "I throw spells" build, you're going to be lagging 1-3 DCs on most of your spells no matter what you do.
Second, you're going to get more spells, and a wider selection of spells, even with the 2 level dip.
Third, getting the Trait that adds 2 to your caster level does a lot for the EK, and it's now legal in PFS.
I currently play a Fighter 1/Arcane Sorcerer 6/EK 1 in PFS play, and have a good time with him. He's built (somewhat) around being a utility caster who can blast as well. The Arcane Bloodline Arcana helps his DCs when he needs to throw spells around, and I've got a mix of utility and damage spells. (I didn't realize how useful Arcane Blast was when I built him, and as a result I didn't swap out learned spells for utility spells during his Sorcerer levels).
Cleave plus Great Cleave plus Arcane Strike plus Gloves of Arcane Striking are a very very fun combination. They make me wish I had the feat available for Lunge...
There are some ambiguous rules on EK.
1) The first EK level can be interpreted as "It adds to your caster level, but doesn't grant spells per day." That's probably not what was intended, but you can make the interpretation that way.
2) While you get your bloodline spells as a Sorcerer thanks to official errata, it's not been clarified if you get to substitute spells known as a spontaneous caster when you progress in EK levels.
3) The EK capstone is particularly useless. You have to have a spell you can cast that's a standard action, and you have to have not already used your swift action in the round on Arcane Strike or Arcane Armor Training.
I've always thought EK was more of a 9 lvl caster with who gave up two spell levels for full BAB. EK doesn't really get any synergy with melee and spells until it gets its 10th level ability. They probably could've done more to help it out when it migrated to PF. It lacks class features. Its just a full BAB class with another classes casting. Can't be entered until after sixth level too, so in PFS its an awful choice I think.
Magus is very cool if you want to mix magic and melee. Spell combat has a lot of uses, and bladed dash is great mobility for moving into combat and getting a full attack off. The downside is that magus's tend to look alike because of the way they work. Usually its a dervish dancer using metamagic shocking grasp. Your still a caster though, and spells are lots of fun and versatile. They're also online from level 1 onward, so in PFS this is the better choice for gish I think.
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an archer ek is much better then a magus. maguses do damage very very well, but an ek archer can deal physical damage on par with a fighter archer, cast *almost* as many spells per day as a full wizard with a full spell list, and has the best trick of all for the end game
antimagic field on an arrow.
now if you wanted to play a melee character i would suggest the magus just for ease of building, but if you want to have a ranged support character... i dont think anything beats an EK archer.
Are you thinking of an arcane Archer sidekick? EK don't have the power to imbue arrows with magic unless its a 10th level EK who crits and still has a swift action leftover and happens to know antimagic field.
Another thing about EK is their capstone doesn't actually fit with arcane armor training. Hellknight Signifier happens to revolve around arcane armor training. There's a certain glee in putting on mithral hell knight armor as a wizard.
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no i know what im talking about. it is a build that has been posted on these forums since the game was crb only.
1 fighter/7 wizard/10ek/2AA
it is hands down the best end game character you can play. physical damage like an archer fighter, and a full 9th level spell list from the sorcerer wizard choice lists, and now with the half elf spell grants you access to the full divine spell list as well.
Why not both? As a magus you qualify for the PRC at the same time as a fighter/wizard, so just get access to spell strike and then go full ek for the better bab. Problem solved.
Why not both? As a magus you qualify for the PRC at the same time as a fighter/wizard, so just get access to spell strike and then go full ek for the better bab. Problem solved.
All you really gain as an EK from Magus is better BAB...
And you lose a lot for it. Much of what makes a Magus something more than just a 'from the start' Eldrich Knight are the other class features, things like Arcane Pool & Arcana...
Which won't progress with Eldrich Knight levels.
If you are in a 20 level progression Campaign it might be worth taking a 4 level 'dip' into EK, but I wouldn't consider all 10 levels to be worth what you lose.
spell strike only works with magus spells. so you would have to stay magus to let spell strike work as intended which would make your character worse then just staying 20 levels of magus.
The Eldritch Knight still uses the Magus's spell list and can still use the spell strike/combat feature with those spells. He does however lose a lot. He loses all those snazzy Magus class features he would get by staying magus. All those nice things.
no i know what im talking about. it is a build that has been posted on these forums since the game was crb only.
1 fighter/7 wizard/10ek/2AA
Imbueing your arrow with AMF is an arcane archer class Feature. Not an Eldritch Knight class feature.
The Magus is a pure melee-based spellcaster. If you wanna get up close and personal with spells, it's the magus you're looking for. It has a lot of abilities that allows you to cast at melee reach without problems and it is based on fusing melee combat with spells.
The EK seems more like your typical multiclassed Fighter/Wizard or Sorcerer. Your spells don't become easier to cast in melee and you still have to choose between attacking in melee or casting a spell; you can't do both like a magus.
Sure you have more powerful spells as an EK, but you have better spellcasting options as a magus.
All you really gain as an EK from Magus is better BAB...
Maybe end game, but for most of the progression, BAB isn't even better.
Let's assume Fighter dip at level 1, then wiz 5, then EK 10, then back to Wiz for 4 more levels.
Level 1: EK +1, Magus +0
Level 2-3: +1 then +2 for both
Level 4: Magus +3, EK +2
Level 5: Both +3
Level 6: Magus +4, EK +3
Level 7: Magus +5, EK +4
Level 8: Magus +6, EK +5
Levels 9-12: Both +6, then +7, then +8, then +9
Level 13: EK +10, Magus +9 EK FINALLY TAKES THE LEAD AGAIN!
Note that EK basically just holds its 1 point lead from there until hitting level 10, then Wiz 6 ups BAB, then it starts getting even again. At level 20, Magus has +15 and the Ftr 1 / Wiz 9 / EK 10 has +15 and they're identical again. The EK can swap those last 4 Wiz levels for 4 Arcane Archer levels to buy itself an extra +2 BAB at the cost of yet another CL if it wants.
All you really gain as an EK from Magus is better BAB...Maybe end game, but for most of the progression, BAB isn't even better.
Let's assume Fighter dip at level 1, then wiz 5, then EK 10, then back to Wiz for 4 more levels.
Let's not, considering I was specifically replying to Shimesen's idea of PrC from MAGUS to Eldrich Knight. I'm not arguing with anything you posted, I'm just saying the only thing that a Magus gets out of taking levels in Eldrich Knight is a better BAB...
& a couple more skills available as Class Skills.
Which is exactly what the op said was the better aspect of the ek. I was catering the idea to his thoughts. I'm very well aware that you lose all of your class abilities doing so, which I don't recommend. None the less, the op didn't seem too keen on them to begin with.
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The big advantage of the Magus is that you don't have that valley of suck, and your abilities work together better.
The big advantage of Fighter/{Wizard/Witch/Sorcerer}/EK is that you're a more flexible caster.
You get much better spell selection, even as a Sorcerer. Magus doesn't get See Invisible. See Invisible is probably the most important 2nd level spell in the game.
Now, I deliberately made an EK from Fighter/Sorcerer because everyone says that EKs suck and Sorcerers suck (and they just assume fighters suck so much it doesn't need mentioning.)
Seems to work fine for me.
It all comes down to what you want out of the character.
(Sorcerer or Witch or Wizard) 6/(Fighter or Ranger) 1/Eldritch Knight 2/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +8 ends up with +17 BAB, 9th level spells, and a more versatile spell list; they can also do a lot of unique things (such as the mentioned antimagic shell on an arrow) with Imbue Arrow.
Magus 20 ends up with +15 BAB, 6th level spells, and better action economy in melee; they fit the "mage-blade" concept better than Eldritch Knight.
Magus (Myrmidarch) 8/Arcane Archer 4/Magus +8 ends up with +16 BAB, 6th level spells, and good options for both melee and ranged combat; they are good for those who want to mix weapons and magic in any circumstance, although they do take a hit to their available spell slots.
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Shimesen, that wouldnt work very well at all...spell strike only works with magus spells. so you would have to stay magus to let spell strike work as intended which would make your character worse then just staying 20 levels of magus.
EK would advance the Magi's spellcasting level. All spells cast would still be from the magus spell list.
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Now, I deliberately made an EK from Fighter/Sorcerer because everyone says that EKs suck and Sorcerers suck (and they just assume fighters suck so much it doesn't need mentioning.)
Seems to work fine for me.
I cannot recall anyone ever saying Sorcerers suck... If anything, the opposite.
Like most people have pointed out in this thread, EK is good if you want to keep more of your Wizard or sorcerer type spell progression. Magus is good because rather than choosing to cast or fight, you're blending both right from first level.
Eldritch Knight is caster who also knows how to fight. Magus fights by casting, but doesn't have the versatility of a "true" caster, instead having a narrow combat-centric focus, very similar to the 3.5 Warmage (only with even fewer AoE's...)
I enjoyed the flexibility of the eldritch knight. The spell failure chance was annoying---especially when the character had to also cast defensively---but it wasn't a deal-breaker. Arcane strike + weapon specialization + decent strength made him reasonably hard-hitting, even before buffs and power attack. The class also played well with the universal wizard's hand of the apprentice trick.
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I've played an EK up through 10th level (so far) in PFS, and my wife has started a magus (about to hit 3rd level). I find they play rather differently, despite sharing an Iconic character and being described pretty much the same (blending sword and spell).
EK is like a salad, while magus is like an alloy.
My EK is unbelievably versatile: he can't be ambushed (Diviner FTW), and with nothing more than a shield spell becomes a solid tank with decent melee damage. Huge initiative, lots of spells, all kinds of options. Whatever the party needs (other than healer, I suppose), he can be that. He has fighter capabilities, he has wizard capabilities. They're all present, but you can pick out the stuff you want at the moment, and whatever you're not doing isn't really affecting you. You're either casting like a wizard or hitting like a fighter. It's a mix, but not a blend. EK is a salad.
The magus is more like a martial with a bunch of buffs (to a magus, touch spells are really just buffs with very short durations). Unless you try really hard to do otherwise, a magus' spellcasting is almost exclusively a vehicle for increased melee power. The magus has a single focus, and uses more than one power source to do it, but it's all one thing: melee. You take the two components (fighting and casting) and melt them into each other to produce a magus, whose individual components can't be easily separated from each other. Everything works as a single, unified whole (for the most part). Magus is an alloy.
Yar!
Jiggy does a good job of describing the differences between them. Another point that has been mentioned a few times but is important for me is this. EK can be spontaneous (via sorcerer).
Yes, there are 3pp archetypes for a spontaneous magus, but in a no-3pp game, EK is how to do it.
Why would this matter? Well, for me at least, character concept and theme is more important than the numbers or optimizing. And that means there are times when spontaneous casting just works better for that.
~P
Ek> magus. The latter requiring a phd in system mastery to correctly interpret class features.
The latter requiring a phd in system mastery to correctly interpret class features.
I think the Magus does the fighting with spell and sword gig better, but I won't deny that trying to understand the mechanics is a little ridiculous. Took me forever to finally understand how it all worked.
Spell Combat: I can cast a spell and do a full attack. Woot! If I use a touch spell I get a free attack with the touch spell and I still get a full attack.
Spell Strike: I can turn a touch spell into a weapon attack.
Together: I can cast a touch spell and full attack, and turn my touch attack into a weapon attack.
I think we might agree but even that is fuzzy. Suffice to say I'll take the salad, no cheese, thanks jiggy.
Yeah idk. Two attacks and a spell in one round at 2nd seems excessive even if it is legal. I mean no one else gets that much fuel economy at 2 without an eidolon/animal.
*Shrug* Color Spray is still better.
Um, ok?
I enjoyed the flexibility of the eldritch knight. The spell failure chance was annoying---especially when the character had to also cast defensively---but it wasn't a deal-breaker. Arcane strike + weapon specialization + decent strength made him reasonably hard-hitting, even before buffs and power attack. The class also played well with the universal wizard's hand of the apprentice trick.
Have you considered going monk (sohei) / sorcerer (empyreal) / EK x / arcane archer y?
You do not need armor then since you can do everything through your monk bonus to AC and bracers / mage armor. Saves feats, opens up opportunities and reduces frustrations... :-)
The Fighter 1/ Wizard 5/ EK 3/ AA 4/ EK 7 is down right my favorite alt I have had, do hour buffs, Shoot bow damn well, and plenty of utility to keep me from being a one trick pony.17 BAB and 17 CL is about perfect IMO.
There have been a number of ways to go about this and many arguments for both sides. My question is simple. Why not PrC to Eldritch Knight from a Magus (or one of its archetypes)?
It really depends on what you want to do. The EK is better at utility, and the magus is more focus on killing things with burst damage. You could mix the two, but you will suffer in one area of the other.
There have been a number of ways to go about this and many arguments for both sides. My question is simple. Why not PrC to Eldritch Knight from a Magus (or one of its archetypes)?
Because you lose out on magus class features such as Arcanas, more arcane points, free feats, casting in heavy armor, etc. Also a level of magus casting.
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I am playing a bladebound magus, mostly because the magus' class abilities and black blade look really good. I would not even consider multiclassing from magus into EK because the BAB increase does not outweigh the magus class features.
Does "proftobe" mean "professor-to-be"? Are you working toward a doctoral degree? Do I get to feel clever for figuring out your tricky secret code?
(Obviously, no one else could possibly have figured this out...)
I enjoyed the flexibility of the eldritch knight. The spell failure chance was annoying---especially when the character had to also cast defensively---but it wasn't a deal-breaker. Arcane strike + weapon specialization + decent strength made him reasonably hard-hitting, even before buffs and power attack. The class also played well with the universal wizard's hand of the apprentice trick.Have you considered going monk (sohei) / sorcerer (empyreal) / EK x / arcane archer y?
You do not need armor then since you can do everything through your monk bonus to AC and bracers / mage armor. Saves feats, opens up opportunities and reduces frustrations... :-)
That's a cool build. I might try it out the next time I play an arcane caster (the particular campaign involving my EK ended a while ago).