Fighting Defensively: Is it worth it?


Advice

Silver Crusade

The question stems from my idea of using Crane Style without being pigeon-holed into a Master of Many Styles Monk build. Its one of the few styles isn't centered around unarmed strikes.

A few guidelines:
Let's assume that for 1-handed builds that the race is half-elf with Ancestral Arms training with the 9 section whip (blocking, monk properties, but its Exotic).

For 2-handed builds, use the Sansetsukon. It only needs Martial to use, but still has the blocking and monk properties. Use previous half elf with Ancestral Arms if you build with a class that doesn't have Martial proficiency, like say monk.

The regular penalty is -4 to attack with a +2 AC bonus. Now, the blocking property will add 1 AC and 3 ranks of acrobatics will add another. Without using any feats, we can get to -4 for a +4.

The dodge feat (a prereq for Crane Style) adds 1 to AC. Crane wing reduces the hit penalty by 2; Crane Riposte reduces 1 more.

For 2 feats, we now have a -2 to hit, for a +6 AC.
For 4 feats, we now have a -1 to hit, for a +6 AC.
Also remember, Crane Wing comes in at level 5, Riposte at 7 or 8.

So, the question...is using 2 or 3 feats worth it to fight defensively?


As with all questions of AC, AC boosting is golden early on and becomes less and less useful as you level up. Attack bonuses outrace AC bonuses and more non-AC targeting effects of consequence show up as you level.


Yes, but remember, crane wing deflect a single attack per round, which is even better than an AC bonus. Facing a single opponent, the combo of deflect and AC boosts would be like reducing their BAB by almost 10. A good trade for -1 to attack if you ask me. If you have the feats to spare, you might want to go for it.

All of these appear to be dodge bonuses too, which apply to your touch AC, for what that counts.


I built a Dervish Bard/Monk that had a really high AC and was pretty untouchable. Add evasion and high saves, it's pretty effective. I've leared that the only way to get it high enough though is to have two stats adding to AC (like a Monk's DEX/WIS or a Kensai's DEX/INT).

Contributor

Believe it or not, but all of the Styles except for the four element ones aren't focused around Unarmed Strikes. Requiring Improved Unarmed Strike is just a way that the developers use to make it easier to qualify for styles as a Monk.

That said, Fighting Defensively with Crane Style has its pros and cons. Using Crane Style and a few ranks in Acrobatics (four to be precise) you can gain a rather large AC bonus at a fairly low level; Combat Expertise can't match Fighting Defensively until 13th level or so. That said, Fighting Defensively limits you to a single attack, so you'll always have the potential for more damage while you're using Combat Expertise. Couple that with the fact that you can't Fight Defensively and, say, Spring Attack or Vital Strike and your combos with Crane Style are somewhat limited.

This isn't even including the greatest weakness of defensive builds; Pathfinder currently has no way to goad or trick enemies into attack you except for one rather wonky feat.

Overall, I would take Combat Expertise over Crane Style every time (unless I was a Monk) for all of the reasons I've mentioned here. Plus Combat Expertise has some wicked feats that require it.


Alexander Augunas wrote:


That said, Fighting Defensively with Crane Style has its pros and cons. Using Crane Style and a few ranks in Acrobatics (four to be precise) you can gain a rather large AC bonus at a fairly low level; Combat Expertise can't match Fighting Defensively until 13th level or so. That said, Fighting Defensively limits you to a single attack, so you'll always have the potential for more damage while you're using Combat Expertise. Couple that with the fact that you can't Fight Defensively and, say, Spring Attack or Vital Strike and your combos with Crane Style are somewhat limited.

Good news for you! Core Rulebook pg. 187, Full-Round Actions, Full Attack section:

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action

You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

Believe it or not, but all of the Styles except for the four element ones aren't focused around Unarmed Strikes. Requiring Improved Unarmed Strike is just a way that the developers use to make it easier to qualify for styles as a Monk.

That said, Fighting Defensively with Crane Style has its pros and cons. Using Crane Style and a few ranks in Acrobatics (four to be precise) you can gain a rather large AC bonus at a fairly low level; Combat Expertise can't match Fighting Defensively until 13th level or so. That said, Fighting Defensively limits you to a single attack, so you'll always have the potential for more damage while you're using Combat Expertise. Couple that with the fact that you can't Fight Defensively and, say, Spring Attack or Vital Strike and your combos with Crane Style are somewhat limited.

This isn't even including the greatest weakness of defensive builds; Pathfinder currently has no way to goad or trick enemies into attack you except for one rather wonky feat.

Overall, I would take Combat Expertise over Crane Style every time (unless I was a Monk) for all of the reasons I've mentioned here. Plus Combat Expertise has some wicked feats that require it.

A few things. You definitely can fight defensively as a full-round action:

"Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn."

Second: The styles aren't based around unarmed strike??

Boar: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes
Dragon: Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Earth Child: you can add your Wisdom bonus on your unarmed strike damage rolls.
Mantis: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus to the DC of effects you deliver with your Stunning Fist.(Uses unarmed attack)
Panther: you can spend a swift action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent.
Snake: you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes.
Turtle: While using the Snapping Turtle Style feat with at least one hand free, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC.
Tiger: You can also deal slashing damage with your unarmed strikes.

Which ones weren't included? Crane, Kirin, Monkey (because the unarmed stuff is in the 2nd and 3rd lines in the feat). And the 4 elemental you mentioned.


Crane has a hand free thing going on too. That said, I feel like its more of a feat tax for quiet a few of them.

Fighting defensively is awful unless you have crane style imo. +2 AC for a -4 to attack is pitiful. +4 to AC for 1 attack and blocking an attack once per round is pretty righteous though.


Why not take it a Step further and get Combat Expertise as well?

Sure you are getting a few negatives but you still have Weapon Weapon Focus and weapon Finesse to amp up your To hit...

So that gives you even more....

Now on the flip side you can actually block attacks by using additional attacks to stop a blow so Flurry of blows can make you even crazier!!!!

Or just blocking and hitting

So yes Fighting Defensively is worth it.


If you were going to hit with your first attack anyway (like most full-BAB classes at later levels), then fighting defensively is golden even without additional bonuses, and just gets better with them. If you're moving and attacking, as opposed to full attacking -- and I understand styles vary a lot -- then helping make sure your enemies are more likely to miss, and much more likely to miss with iterative attacks, is very good. But some of it depends on what you're fighting.


My Aldori Swordlord (2 level MoMS dip) currently has Combat Expertise, Crane Style, and Defensive Parry currently has an AC of 28 vs. melee (27 otherwise) with only having a +1 Mithril Kikko for armor (+6 from that) at 7th level. He fights defensively and with CE going for -3 to hit and +6 AC currently.

At 9th level, he'll gain Steel Net which removes the remaining -2 from fighting defensively, while adding another +2 dodge to AC, so he'll be -2 to hit then with a +9 AC (another +2 vs. melee attacks from Defensive Parry).

I've broke it down with just a minor investment of +2 armor, +1 ring, +1 natural armor he'll have like a 37~38 AC at 9th level. When the synergies get going, it's easy to bump the AC and make the penalties much easier to deal with.


I think that the 4th level of the Aldori Swordlord prestige class would do the same thing (reduces the penalty by 1...which is convenient with crane style feats, no?). I...vaguely... think you can get the same effect by level 9 without the need for full attacks if you went 2 MoMS and fighter and immediately took the prestige class at level 6. Nice for a build that just doesn't want to deal with anymore scimitars, heh.

A fun build I've toying with getting all three crane style feats by level 2 if you play a human and take your first level feats for dodge and crane style, and level 1 and 2 bonus feats for wing and riposte. Seems a bit like a chicken and the eggs problem, but seems like no one questioned it in the rules section. With all three feats, you can play any stat array really. cool way to get a duelist style character without going for a DEX build.

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