Building a Rogue / Paladin....thoughts / ideas?


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Byrdology wrote:
Ninja don't get trapfinding. Any cha build is doomed because you want dex and wis to spot and disarm traps. I think a trapper ranger 1/ cleric x is your best bet. Either reach or archery build.

Keep in mind I'm also going to be a front line fighter and the healer. So having access to Paladin damage options like Smite, Saves, and BAB is going to be a sacrifice I have to make to juggle both.

What combat/melee damage options would Cleric bring to the table over a Paladin? You'll have to sell me on it. Also, I am unfamiliar with a Grey Warden. Is it in a Paizo product?


As a reach cleric, you can dish out dmg with AoOs even when it's not your turn, but it boils down to this: you are spreading yourself too thin. A str/cha paladin does not have the chops to find traps, an dex/ cha char can't front line for your group, and anything else won't be as effective at healing.

A reach cleric isn't on par with a paladin In terms of combat, but you can be more than passable at all three things you want to do. You will be the center of any strategy, because your allies will let the enemy ranks soften themselves up on your AoO, then move to flank with you. With you in the middle, you can pop a channel if things are looking bad, and you are safe to move and cast on your turn, and get AoOs if anyone pursues you. Your action economy is what saves you in the frontline/ healer role.

Paladins put out more dmg, but they have to focus on heals or combat, not both. Do as you wish, but I think you will be pretty run down pretty quick.

Grey Warden is a PrC from paths of prestige.


Ranger trapper for trapfinding then the rest of levels as Holy Warrior:
Full BAB, all cleric abilities except domains, full caster.. profincient with the deity's weapon too. (Gorum->greatsword)

You can fight very well, you have a lot of buffs, protections for the group, can convert in cure too.. heal.. miracle..
I missed something :)? but you lack skill points


Why couldn't a dex/cha front line if they dual wielded finesse weapons?

It seems like a reach cleric would rely upon always being in the middle spot of a large combat area to work. That's not always going to be the case.

I really think a Hospitaler Paladin, with it's high BAB and access to more healing than usual, is a pretty good balance of both combat and healing. He would also be able to position himself for the channels with a reach weapon as you're suggesting, if I went with a medium race instead of Halfling.

I could also still do the Combat Reflexes-Reach-AoO strategy you're suggesting with a Paladin and a Reach weapon. I'm confused as to why you think I'd need a Cleric to pull it off.

Shadow Lodge

What about just using a straight Seeker Oracle (from PFS: Field Guide)? They get trapfinding and as a primary divine caster they will be capable of keeping up with your healing needs. It's pretty easy to build one stealthy as well.

Also, it allows for you to focus more. As a battle oracle you would be more combat oriented, as a life oracle you could still have channel energy, etc.


Cleric is for the full access to heal/ buffs, but it doesn't matter. Play what you think will be fun. Dex/cha characters don't have enough dmg output to be a reasonable threat, the con to take a hit, or the wis to be an effective trap spotter.you CAN do it, but you are weaker all around. Paladins CAN heal, but are weaker than clerics at it, and dex/wis (needed for trap finding) are the two least important stats for a melee paladin. Going ranger/ cleric/ GW gives you some great dmg options, access to better heals, and the skills you need to be a great trap finder/ face/ stealth monkey. Mithril b-plate keeps your AC high, a reach weapon with combat ref gives you plenty of high 2hw dmg and action economy. It's just an all around strong choice. Buy a +2 str and cha (or wis) item and you are more than rocking the casbah...


Rafim wrote:

Ranger trapper for trapfinding then the rest of levels as Holy Warrior:

Full BAB, all cleric abilities except domains, full caster.. profincient with the deity's weapon too. (Gorum->greatsword)

You can fight very well, you have a lot of buffs, protections for the group, can convert in cure too.. heal.. miracle..
I missed something :)? but you lack skill points

Yes, you definitely missed the "Has to be a Current Paizo Pathfinder Product" part.

Holy Warrior would be wonderful if it wasn't 3.5 material.


Byrdology wrote:
Cleric is for the full access to heal/ buffs, but it doesn't matter. Play what you think will be fun. Dex/cha characters don't have enough dmg output to be a reasonable threat, the con to take a hit, or the wis to be an effective trap spotter.you CAN do it, but you are weaker all around. Paladins CAN heal, but are weaker than clerics at it, and dex/wis (needed for trap finding) are the two least important stats for a melee paladin. Going ranger/ cleric/ GW gives you some great dmg options, access to better heals, and the skills you need to be a great trap finder/ face/ stealth monkey. Mithril b-plate keeps your AC high, a reach weapon with combat ref gives you plenty of high 2hw dmg and action economy. It's just an all around strong choice. Buy a +2 str and cha (or wis) item and you are more than rocking the casbah...

Definitely a build to consider, as I want to be useful in all categories, and retain main healing. Keeping opponents at bay with reach weapons might seem a great idea, until one gets under my range and in my face.

What kind of reach weapons can also threaten close?


Holy warrior IS in the Pathfinder Chronicle campaign setting.. pg. 43


I missed nothing at all.. in the cover book I read Pathfinder.. in the description of the regions i read something like: Varisia, Cheliax, Numeria and so on.. Uhm I don't remember this 3.5 expansion atm :))

Did Serenrae kill Pelor taking his place?? :)


Spiked gauntlet for when you absolutely have to, reposition for everything else... There is also the "bad touch" spells


Rafim wrote:
Holy warrior IS in the Pathfinder Chronicle campaign setting.. pg. 43

Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting is built for 3.5e D&D. The Inner Sea World Guide is what replaced it for the Pathfinder ruleset.

Is Holy Warrior in the Inner Sea World Guide?


I couldn't find holy warrior. Do you have a link?


and is it not legal then??


Correct. It is not legal for play unless it was transferred to the Inner Sea World Guide, or is one of the specially asterisked feats/abilities that happened during the crossover/update from 3.5 to PF. Those are outlined in the update to the out-of-print product.

If your DM/GM allows it, it would be legal for home play. Definitely not legal for PFS, or from my GM's perspective. I'd disallow it too.

Byrdology, without direct access to the out of print product, this is what I found:

Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting's Holy Warrior

It seems rather awesome. Proficiency with chosen weapon, d10 HD, full BAB in trade for your domain spells and abilities. I'd do it in a heartbeat for this character concept.


Holy vindicator is a good tank/heal PrC, just make sure you buff your disable device skill. It essentially turns your cleric into a paladin with better spells... Skills/ lvl is your main drawback.


so sorry then!


Hmmm, interesting turn of events.

Pitched the idea of Holy Warrior as a Cleric Archetype instead of an alternate class progression, and got approved, with the additional loss of Spontaneous Casting (so I'm not stepping on Paladin's toes TOO much.)

I have to come up with the Archetype, and will post here for review.

So, if I go Ranger/Holy Warrior with the reach weapon idea, it would behoove me to play as large a race as possible, eh? Not sure I like that idea. I was pretty sold on going Small race.

I'll do two builds, one with Halfling Rgr/Pal and one with Human Rgr/Clr. See which one makes the most sense and the most fun.


Unfortunately, small races aren't as good with melee dmg output, but don't let that discourage you from playing what you want.


Barry Armstrong wrote:

Hmmm, interesting turn of events.

Pitched the idea of Holy Warrior as a Cleric Archetype instead of an alternate class progression, and got approved, with the additional loss of Spontaneous Casting (so I'm not stepping on Paladin's toes TOO much.)

I have to come up with the Archetype, and will post here for review.

So, if I go Ranger/Holy Warrior with the reach weapon idea, it would behoove me to play as large a race as possible, eh? Not sure I like that idea. I was pretty sold on going Small race.

I'll do two builds, one with Halfling Rgr/Pal and one with Human Rgr/Clr. See which one makes the most sense and the most fun.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Per the RAW:

Small races still have a reach of 5 feet normally, with a reach weapon they still get 10ft and with lunge they can still get 15ft.

I'd still go with a halfling with a reach weapon and pick up lunge at some point so that you can do the 15ft just like a medium character. The only difference is that when enlarged your reach doesn't gain anything because it goes from small to medium.


ub3r_n3rd wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong...

Per the RAW:

Small races still have a reach of 5 feet normally, with a reach weapon they still get 10ft and with lunge they can still get 15ft.

I'd still go with a halfling with a reach weapon and pick up lunge at some point so that you can do the 15ft just like a medium character. The only difference is that when enlarged your reach doesn't gain anything because it goes from small to medium.

Nope, I just finished the same research and came to the same conclusion. Reach weapons and their mechanic pay no attention to what size the wielding creature is. Very interesting, I always thought it would be a 5ft penalty.

Anyways, created the Pathfinder Archetype for Holy Warrior Cleric that I'll be submitting to the DM per our conversation. What do you think:

Holy Warrior (Archetype)

Some men of the cloth devote less time to the divine magics in favor of more martial pursuits. The Holy Warrior hones his tactical skills according to his deity’s type and style. He hardens his body for combat, developing meditation rituals practiced during weapon training. Not as fervent and strict as his Paladin bretheren, he holds only to the tenets of his chosen god and expresses his faith at the tip of a spear. A Holy Warrior has the following class features.

Hit Dice: d10. A Holy Warrior does not gain any domain spells or abilities from his Cleric class levels. This replaces a Cleric’s normal Hit Dice of d8 and both the Cleric’s domains.

Base Attack Bonus: Full. A Holy warrior’s BAB is equivalent to his Cleric level. This replaces a Cleric’s normal BAB progression and the Spontaneous Casting ability.


Barry Armstrong wrote:

After researching the feat, it requires an empty off-hand. Not being able to use a shield or dual wield to make up for the defense limitation seems a very large negative.

Do you think it would be worth the AC hit to increase the damage output?

Get a wand of Spell Shield... No seriously that would be a good idea.

Also Shadowdance can work very well I didn't even think of that


Archtype looks ok to me... Honestly, I've never looked to closely at clerics before... but losing both domains sees kind of harsh just for a POSSIBLE 2hp... Seriously, if you roll anything from 1-8 each level... your giving them up for nothing. I think toughness or something would be a better road then focusing on the D10...

BAB looks good. that's an ability you'll get a lot of use out of. I think the spontaneous healing is one of my favorite things there... and honestly really fits your 'main healer' concept. Though I suppose you can just prepare them all that day anyway.

Barry Armstrong wrote:

Sorceror, Wizard, Magus, Bard, Fighter (Archer Build, not tank), Samurai, and me.

This... is a LARGE group. I'm seeing 3 big casters... 3 big combat characters and even someone else who can heal too...

I would really be careful trying to fill as many roles as your shooting for. It wouldn't be too hard to start stepping on toes if your not careful. you MAY not even NEED the archtype since you have the magus and 2 other full BaBs in there... The spontaneous casting and extrra divine spells may be more useful to you.


Let me clarify. I am not the main tank. But I will be in frontline combat. I am not a superstealth sneak attacker trying to fill a rogue's shoes. I simply picked up the ability to be quiet and find traps.

My focus is main heals with the ability to scout and survive in battle. I think the 1 level dip in Trapper Ranger is definitely awesome, but I am still on the fence for the healer stuff:

Hospitaler Paladin:

Pros = Full BAB, Good Saves, Heavy Armor, Channel + Lay on Hands + Smite

Cons = May not have enough heal spells to be viable at higher level

Oracle of Life:

Pros = LOTS of heal spells, little bonuses here and there with revelations

Cons = Cursed, Not as good in combat

Holy Warrior Cleric:

Pros = Full BAB, Channel, good array of heals

Cons = Loses spontaneous casting

Silver Crusade

I made this character for PFSP. It might fill the role your looking for.

Pros: Full divine caster, Heavy Armor, Martial Weapons, Good Combat Character
Con : No full BAB, No channeling, Lower saves,

Human (20Point)
Oracle : Battle
Str 17
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 7
Cha 14
Fauchard (two handed) 1D10 Crit threat 18-20/X2 Reach, Trip
Skill Ranks Per level : 6
Traits :
Vagabond Child (Urban) : Disable Device as a class skill. +1 Trait bonus to disable device.
Reactionary : +2 Trait bonus to initiative
Curse: Pick one other then Lame.
Revelations:
1: Skill at Arms
3: Weapon Mastery: Fauchard (Or any good weapon. I chose the Fauchard as it is reach and has a high threat range.)
7: Maneuver Mastery : Trip
11: Resiliency
Feet's:
Human Bonus : Extra Revelation : War Sight
1: Improved Initiative
3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchard
5: Toughness
7: Power Attack
9: Improved Over Run
11: Charge Though
Starting Spells
Read Magic
Detect Magic
Stabilize
Light
Cure Light Wounds
Divine Favor
Bless


Barry Armstrong wrote:

Let me clarify. I am not the main tank. But I will be in frontline combat. I am not a superstealth sneak attacker trying to fill a rogue's shoes. I simply picked up the ability to be quiet and find traps.

My focus is main heals with the ability to scout and survive in battle. I think the 1 level dip in Trapper Ranger is definitely awesome, but I am still on the fence for the healer stuff:

Hospitaler Paladin:

Pros = Full BAB, Good Saves, Heavy Armor, Channel + Lay on Hands + Smite

Cons = May not have enough heal spells to be viable at higher level

Oracle of Life:

Pros = LOTS of heal spells, little bonuses here and there with revelations

Cons = Cursed, Not as good in combat

Holy Warrior Cleric:

Pros = Full BAB, Channel, good array of heals

Cons = Loses spontaneous casting

It's darn hard to design a PC who can do:

Main healer
Primary trapfinder
Tank
Do damage.

I think skip Holy Warrior, and go for Pally or Oracle.

Pally has good tanking as he can LoH himself as a swift. Not to mention, Full plate, etc.

If you take extra Channel (when you get it, plus selective channel, plus later quick channel) you should have enough healing. The pally's mercies can fill in for the rest.

But I think the oracle, esp with a small PC will work very well.


All said and done, here is what I went with:

Samsaran Oracle of Life

Traits:

Sacred Touch
Student of Faith

Feats:

Life's Blood
Selective Channeling

Curse:

Tongues

Revelations:

Safe Curing
Channel Energy

Skills (Samsaran Racial):

Perception
Use Magic Device

Weapon: Long Spear
STR: 14
DEX: 12
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

Going to take Elemental Channel as a level 5 Feat to qualify for the Holy Vindicator PrC and go that route.

Shadow Lodge

ask your gm if he will let you play the shadow bane inquisitor from 3.5. it is a little less powerful then a pathfinder paladin, but it is exactly what you are looking for in terms of theme.

ask him to let you keep the class levels progressing, in paladin while you're in the prestige class.


To be perfectly fair here, I recently was playing a rogue which made it to level 7. Then our cleric sent me and a flying horned devil (which I was hanging on to by my daggers) into the holy realm. Result? My character (if I wanted to continue it) had to take levels in paladin. And I did. And it worked beautifully. Really. The throwing saves go well together, and the result (for now) is a rogue/paladin 7/7 that can beat up anything while disabling all traps.

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