Designing a heist campaign, have some questions


Advice


So I'm currently in the process of designing a campaign in the vein of heist films, in which the party is a group of professional thieves pulling off heists of their own accord or on the behalf of clients. It'd be level 10, 25 point buy, Paladin class banned (for obvious reasons), commonplace guns. I'd be running it for just a group of friends and they all seem pretty hyped about it, but I had some questions for ways to make things run smoother:

1. Character wealth. Given that the PCs are professional thieves, it makes sense for them to have fat stacks of cash above normal citizens. I don't want to break everything, though. Should I just start them with the base amount of cash for level 10s, multiply that amount by a certain number, or what?

2. Going along with 1, would it ever be too much of a jerk move to have the players lose access to their cash? I'll elaborate more on this in the next question.

3. I had planned for there to be a very large crime syndicate operating simultaneously that has a habit of trying to absorb or eliminate smaller crime organizations. I figured at some point the party would probably get on their radar--probably by doing a heist that interferes with the syndicate's operations but we'd have to see--at which point this syndicate tries their damnedest to get the PCs, from trying to raid their hideout to trying to empty their accounts to even trying to get them set up on one of their heists so that they wind up captured by the Syndicate. I figured this would be a good way to introduce a sort of BBEG and add some overall plot to the story, but I don't know if it feels too..I dunno, bait-and-switch.

4. I had also planned for the pcs to have opportunities to recruit allies in their fight against the syndicate (for example, if they somehow got arrested, the cops would cut them a deal to let them go if they assist them in taking down this syndicate by disrupting their operations, stealing back illegal goods, etc) but, again, I didn't know if this was bait-and-switch or railroady.

5. Contacts. I'd imagine the pcs would have contacts. Would it be best to have the pcs meet with their contacts for jobs themselves or to have some sort of NPC middleman who could possibly sell them out?

6. Speaking of selling out, I'd imagine the npcs might do a lot of information gathering and staking out places before pulling off jobs (key word being "might"). If so, is it ever acceptable for them to obtain false information or situations they didn't plan for (i.e. they got the wrong guard rotation schedule or the floor plans they were supplied were out of date)? I wouldn't do this a lot, mind you, but I figured it might add some flavor to things.

I realize I'll probably have to do some railroading, but I want everything to seem as natural as possible and try to allow the PCs a good amount of freedom while making them feel like badasses. I know I've probably missed some things, but those are my major concerns at the moment--do you see anything that comes off as potentially annoying or deceptive to a potential player who doesn't know about this Syndicate and whatnot?


1. You can do quite a bit with 62,000gp, I would not push it much higher. 65,000 maybe.

2. No. Especially if the PCs brought it upon themselves through their own stupidity.

3. Sounds like a solid plan, much more interesting than a paladin following them around like a lost dog (who has voices in it's head is telling it to smite the party off this plane)

4. Again, sounds like a good idea. Railroading isn't bad as long as you use it appropriately and to advance the plot.

5. Yes, but only if the price is right.

6. The best laid plans of men and mice, often go astray. Another good idea, just don't do it too often or the PC's will actually plan for it :P

Sovereign Court

About losing access to wealth.

1) It's good to share OOC expectations with the players beforehand. Warn them beforehand that it's possible that they'll lose stuff now and then because that's what the NPC antagonists are trying to do. Tell your players that sometimes they'll gain more than expected, and at other times lose stuff.

2) If they put in effort to protect assets, respect that effort; if they do particularly clever things, that should reduce the NPCs success rate at stealing PC stuff. It can be gratifying for players to see NPCs try but fail because the PCs used clever defences.

3) WBL; the idea isn't that PCs must have a straight line going up level by level, but that you can look at the PCs' wealth to see if they're currently stronger or weaker than the average for which the game is built. If the PCs are currently under-equipped, the WBL table can warn you that they're weak for their level. Vice versa for high wealth moments.

4) Be careful when stealing specific gear. It's one thing to steal 10,000gp; stealing a wizard's spellbook is quite different.

5) Revenge opportunities: if the players set out to steal their stuff back, or make a big score, they should be able to peak way above WBL as well; this kind of campaign is about stealing more than you deserve and then trying to hold on to it.

Basically, instead of rising WBL being a smooth line, this will be a very zig-zaggy line, that still climbs up, but with peaks and valleys.

Silver Crusade

1. Based off personal experience, I'd say go for it. May 1-1/2 times the regular wealth or so, to not make them uber-broken. I played in a campaign recently where the GM gave us far above our starting wealth, and it was fun as hell. And, it is a game after all, so fun is the goal. You could always up their APL a little to account for their extra cash. Plus, it sets up for your second question, which I think sounds like an awesome way to get your players to care about a storyline. Nothing motivates PCs like their wealth being stolen. :) You might even consider giving them the regular starting wealth, and then a pool of resource money, kind of like Kingmaker's BP that they can spend on bribing contacts, equipping contacts or thieves under them, paying for distractions, improving their base of operations, etc.

2&3. See above. I think that would be an awesome storyline, as long as you didn't force it, so the PCs felt cheated. I'd wait a few sessions so the PCs can get attached to their wealth before taking it away. Maybe drop some hints about the syndicate before then.

4. Also think this would be a cool idea. Building PC-NPC connections is a great way to get players involved in a campaign.

5. Heck yes.

6. Yes, but you might want to leave this mostly to the PCs. Maybe the NPCs give them like 40% of the info needed for a heist, and the PCs have to figure out the rest. A lot of fun of heist games is the stakeout!

Silver Crusade

Also, +1 to everything Ascalaphus said.


I really like this idea. Of course, I like anything that reminds me of Shadow Run.

1) Always a tough call. I'll leave this for someone more confident in their answer.

2) No. Losing access to cash is a great motivator and it often astounds me how much effort PCs will go to to retrieve even the most meager of items/money stolen from them. Now, having the wealth disappear forever is bad (and I know one GM that does this as much as possible!) but allowing the group to find a clever way to get it back is loads of fun.

3) I think that sounds like a wonderful idea. I imagine they will have a lot of fun finding ways to reacquire their wealth and stealing even more from the Syndicate. In my experience players love to have a dangerous enemy to annoy. :)

4) The PCs can make a deal w/ the cops. That doesn't mean the PCs will actually follow through w/ the deal! I imagine breaking deals could be quite common in such a game. :P

5) I could see it going either way depending on who is hiring them. A desperate person who was wronged may come straight to them (if they can figure out how to contact them). More influential clients w/ more to lose may use a middleman to maintain anonymity.

6) In situations like this I like to establish the way things work and then let the PCs try to figure it out. If the guards have 3 separate rotations that they use randomly, but the group only stakes out the place for one day, then it's their fault for not being thorough, not your fault for purposely tricking them.

And, in my opinion, railroading is forcing the group to do exactly A, B, C, etc. Railroading is not having a villain set up for them to fight. I mean, if having a Syndicate who comes after them for infringing on their territory is railroading, then everything is. :P

Sovereign Court

Regarding how much time players put into heist preparation ("Legwork"); finding plans, guard rotations and so forth.

You mentioned that NPCs will put much more effort/time into this. I disagree; maybe the PCs put in a lot of effort; spying on the place for days using magic and mundane powers. But that's in-game time; out of character it could be condensed into a couple of rolls to get the information.

Why would you do so? For the same reason that this stuff is often done by montage in movies: because week-long stakeouts are boring if you really play the entire week. If you take just a few minutes here and there to sketch what the stakeout is like, you convey the idea and feeling, but you have more OOC time left over for "the fun part": the heist itself.

Aside from that: is it fair that NPCs will sometimes (try to) give false information or betray the PCs? Yes, but don't forget that PCs might have the means to detect betrayal (sky-high Sense Motive scores, magical lie detection) and to force good behaviour (Charm spells, Diplomacy/Intimidation scores at ridiculous levels etcetera), so they have the means to protect themselves.


1.) Have you seen the daily wages for a commoner? A level 10 PC has the kind of wealth gap that seperates a teen with their first busted piece of..... and a CEO with a few private jets. Even comparing the same level of PC and noble still has a gap. But that is in abstract numbers of fluid units. Thieves would probably have large stashes of valuable goods that they sit on while they wait for the heat to cool down. Magical items with peculiar properties could be a fairly stable store for extra wealth. Of course, random crowns and scepters covered in giant jewels always have a nice, concrete pleasure.

6.) I think I would work with knowledge (local) and maybe sense motive checks depending on the source for faulty info. Really, knowledge local seems to get skipped over a lot when it is meant to be this kind of thing. Of course, you could do the rolls secretly and let them believe they aced it. That is kind of the point, no?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd also suggest that attempts to Gather Information (either on behalf of the PCs or against the PCs) have a chance of getting back to the target ("Yeah, there was some guys in here asking about you the other day..." "How long has that ice cream van been parked across the street?") You can build up some good paranoia that way.

If the PCs have relationships outside their group (lovers, family, friends) they can be targets of the bad guys and make for some interesting scenes.

Finally, the Spycraft 2.0 game has an interesting mechanic for handling things like infilitrations, chases, manhunts, seductions, etc. that can easily be ported over to a fantasy campaign.


When I was designing my heist campaign it basically worked out like Assassins Creed 1. Even though it's not like the best game ever, it provides a very solid formula for doing heist-like things, or anything that requires planning.

1) I wouldn't give them an excessive amount of money. It's not fun/challenging if the PC's have access to everything possible, but giving them access to a select few unique things will make your heists more strategic and interesting. Again, referring to the Assassins Creed series: AC2 had a good amount of appropriate items you could get, however, in ACR you were like a walking arsenal with weapons/gadgets seeping out every single pore. If you give your players too much money, they may abuse your system and buy things that make the heists too easy and simple compared to what they should be. Remember, heists are about strategy. If you give the players too much money, they can just buy their way through it.

Perhaps they start with very little money (PC's broke and need a way to earn cash), and in order to make money they have to work their way up. So with each heist they earn more money, giving them access to more and more things. The first heist would be very simple, and eventually they would be robbing castles, which would grab the attention of the crime syndicate you spoke of. Although, you would have to plan a lot of heists for that...

2) It really depends on your story. Why are the players doing heists? Do they really need the money, or are they doing them because they just can, or are addicted to it (like in Breaking Bad)? If they are doing heists for clients then it sounds like they have already got the ball rolling, but maybe they aren't that well known yet so they don't have a ton of cash. If the amount of money makes since for your story, then your players won't be mad. I started off a campaign where the players were broke and practically had no items/weapons, but they weren't mad because they quickly earned money and were able to get what they wanted. They felt more rewarded that way, but only because it was in the context of the story.

3) I think your PC's should work there way up, and eventually gain attention from the local crime syndicate. The crime synd hires them, where things start to get crazy, and the PC's morals are really pushed beyond what they are comfortable with (unless your players are NE and CE). The crime synd has them doing horrible things which the PC's probably wouldn't have done before. Maybe at the end, the PC's get fed up with the "Boss" and instead of doing a heist, the last mission turns into an assassination where you murder him/her. I think this may be simpler. idk, just throwing out other ideas for you to use.

4)I think buying allies is fine, as long as they aren't going on heists with the PC's and stuff, or doing anything major. Anything significant should be done by the PC's, unless they earn major help from a specific ally by doing a sidequest for him/her.

5) I think the PC's should have a NPC contact that they use for every heist, someone who is unofficially part of the group but isn't a PC.

6) Before I answer your question, gathering information is good, but you need a strong variety of sidequests so it doesn't get boring. Stake outs just don't sound engaging at all. Ones like intercepting guard letters, interrogations, doing jobs for shady people who can give you information are all better than stake outs. Though, percepting the heist area is important

To answer your question, I think it's a good idea, especially if you don't plan on doing it that often. As long as the PC's have a way of getting around the lie, so it isn't forcibly believed and railroaded, then I think you'll be fine.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Don't forget about cover identities and a way to launder the money.

Setting the PCs up as owners of a casino like Second Darkness' Gold Goblin might be easiest.


Wow, glad to see that the idea is, at the very least, solid. I'll keep all this in mind. I should point out that, yes, I would give the pcs opportunities to know something is up, as well as a way to protect their assets should third parties come after them. Thanks for the spycraft suggestion by the way--I only have a passing familiarity with the system but I'll look into it and see if there's anything in there I like that can be ported over.


You could make part of the setup several stashes of gold/loot that the PCs had and the crime syndicate stole.

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