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So with our "Heroes of the East III" book coming out in a few weeks, we are looking ahead to a "compiled" version of our Heroes of the East line (1-3 + Wolong, Kotodama Master from Tome of Ingenuity, etc) which will be including a Chinese based setting. It will roughly be based on the 3 Kingdoms period of China with significant fantasy elements & will draw from Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Indian mythology & culture.
So we want to ask you guys. What belongs in an eastern setting?
What would you like to see?
What do you NOT want to see?
What remains to be explored?
Any feedback would be loved!
We are defiantly drawing from a lot of Hindu mythology but we like the idea of folk-hero gods with exaggerated semi-fictional accounts.
Buddhism, Taoist, and Hindu elements will all be present. (We can't wait to use some Mahabharata references!)
To be honest, I haven't studied Tibet a LOT but one of our writers has so I'll probably tap him for that.
Thanks!
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Things that should be there:
Ancestor Spirits
Psionics
Kami
"Taint"
Different martial arts styles for different cultures
chakras
Meditation
Shapeshifters (animal forms)
Ki Powers
Oni
Mantras
Wuxia
Martial arts that use long sleeves/clothing as weapons
Ghosts
Magic based on the 5 elements (fire-water-air-earth + Void (Japanese) or metal (Chinese)
Too name a few :)
Things that should be there:
Ancestor Spirits
Psionics
Kami
"Taint"
Different martial arts styles for different cultures
chakras
Meditation
Shapeshifters (animal forms)
Ki Powers
Oni
Mantras
Wuxia
Martial arts that use long sleeves/clothing as weapons
Ghosts
Magic based on the 5 elements (fire-water-air-earth + Void (Japanese) or metal (Chinese)Too name a few :)
Do I detect a L5R fan? :-)
Martial Arts Styles
Have you have a chance to look at our Heroes of the East I & II?
We had a LOT of new martial arts styles based on real world styles from a verity of cultures. We are continuing to do this in HoE III and in the setting it will be very important as well. No long sleeve ones... yet.
Wuxia
We have this in spades :-)
Kami & Oni
A full base class caster of this exists in our HoE III.
Psionics
We will see how we integrate this. I am a little wary of requiring someone to buy another book (Say our Tome of the Bizarre or DSP's Psionic line) in order to use this one. Maybe as alternate rules.
Thanks so much! Awesome suggestions!
Psionics isn't eastern, it's '70's New Age.
Oh, I disagree so very, very much.
We actually want to do a lot more with nature as divinity in this setting and have celestial bureaucracy than psionics. That's not to say that we couldn't include psionics as say an alternate rule or a suggestion.
Oh, I disagree so very, very much.
Psionics isn't eastern, it's '70's New Age.
Yeah, considering John W. Campbell came up with the word in the 50s.
Imperial Assassins wielding flying guillotines?
Imperial Assassins wielding flying guillotines?
Psssht, of course, how could we forget that.
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Psionics isn't eastern, it's '70's New Age.Things that should be there:
Ancestor Spirits
Psionics
Kami
"Taint"
Different martial arts styles for different cultures
chakras
Meditation
Shapeshifters (animal forms)
Ki Powers
Oni
Mantras
Wuxia
Martial arts that use long sleeves/clothing as weapons
Ghosts
Magic based on the 5 elements (fire-water-air-earth + Void (Japanese) or metal (Chinese)Too name a few :)
Not at all - I disagree - Ki Powers are just another name for mental powers - only thing that might be "70s" are the crystal aspects which can easily be replaced
We actually want to do a lot more with nature as divinity in this setting and have celestial bureaucracy than psionics. That's not to say that we couldn't include psionics as say an alternate rule or a suggestion.
Then I suggest Shamans....they use unarmed combat plus spirit magic - they are in Oriental Adventures book
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Kaiju (historical accuracy? I spit radioactive fire at thee.)
Pantheism
Metal and Wood and Void as 'elements' (and / or Domains, Bloodlines, etc.)
Shark People (not exclusively evil, but not necessarily nice)
Snow Maidens (as fey)
Magical Tattoos that can grow ever more complex and powerful over time
Naga
Dragons with beautiful human-looking daughters (or sons, whatever)
PC-able Terra Cotta Warriors (Warforged, before they were kewl)
Magical Animals as 'wise advisors' (tigers, snakes, cranes, etc.)
Imperial Assassins wielding flying guillotines?
How would flying guillotines work in PF?
I'd imagine a 20/x4 crit weapon that doesn't deal damage, if it doesn't score a critical, but when it does, it's also a coup de grace. And it shouldn't be able to hurt a creature more than one size category smalle or larger than the wielder it was made for.
Imperial Assassins wielding flying guillotines?How would flying guillotines work in PF?
I'd imagine a 20/x4 crit weapon that doesn't deal damage, if it doesn't score a critical, but when it does, it's also a coup de grace. And it shouldn't be able to hurt a creature more than one size category smalle or larger than the wielder it was made for.
Flying Guillotine
20gp 1d2(s) 1d4(m) [20 x5] 14 lbs. B see textSpecial: On a critical hit this weapon deals 1d10 slashing damage. This additional effect does not occur if the character wielding the flying guillotine has the throw anything feat.
Terra Cotta Soldiers
I actually got to see these on a trip I took to China (-Scott). I could see terra cotta warriors being a commonplace kind of construct that is simple/cheap to make (By the way, clay golems are terrifying). Like every village has a few as a last line of defense.
Kaiju
I think I heard bestiary 4 is going to have Kaiju? (Forgive me if my memory is not 100%)
Oriental Elements
We actually included Metal and Wood and Void as elements for wizards. Not sure if we can reprint one of them (I believe it's void).
Shark People
Samebito WOULD be fun to include.
Hansom Dragon Children
Celestial dragon blooded people could be a lot of fun to include. We actually did a "dragon blooded" base class a while back (Link) that would be perfect for this setting.
Magic Tattoos
I'm not familiar the with mythology of growing tattoos. What's the source. We'd love to draw from it!
Wise Animals
We actually have a perfect archetype for this in our next book (Heroes of the West) and I could see this working very well for the animal adviser thing.
Imperial Assassins wielding flying guillotines?How would flying guillotines work in PF?
I'd imagine a 20/x4 crit weapon that doesn't deal damage, if it doesn't score a critical, but when it does, it's also a coup de grace. And it shouldn't be able to hurt a creature more than one size category smalle or larger than the wielder it was made for.
Well, the mechanics of the head-taking should probably be handled in a fashion like the vorpal weapon property. For combat, the thing is fairly versatile if you look at the source material. It has a set of teeth on the outer edge, and the wielder attacks in a fashion similar to a kusari-gama.
There was actually a mythbusters episode on it if I recall.
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There was actually a mythbusters episode on it if I recall.
There was indeed, though I don't see the need to let reality intrude upon your project. ;-)
Quite true. I was thinking about doing some sort of mundane vorpal thing but it might be a bit strong to do for a mundane weapon. Maybe a magic version?
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Magic makes sense. Maybe even make them minor artifacts, with only so many in existence. Also avoids the whole katana problem, where people want a mundane weapon that does 3d6(15-20/x4) and can cut through castles in one swing.
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Not at all - I disagree - Ki Powers are just another name for mental powers - only thing that might be "70s" are the crystal aspects which can easily be replaced
Ki (at least by Japanese standards) is inside your gut, not your head. Ki is not mental powers, it's an energy field within the bodies of things. Not just living things either. Every rock, tree, mountain, even manufactured objects have Ki inside. Ki energy can be manipulated, granting various "powers".
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Magic Tattoos
I'm not familiar the with mythology of growing tattoos. What's the source. We'd love to draw from it!
While you might not have to follow the same course with this as we've done in Kaidan, but no respectable monk, nor anybody except the yakuza, will even wear a tattoo. Kaidan has magical tattoos, but only yakuza wear them.
L5R was the first to come up with tattooed monks, then it followed in the Complete Warriors 3.5 - it never existed historically in any oriental nation, certainly not Japan.
Even today in Japan, you wouldn't be allowed into a public pool, if you had a tattoo exposed anywhere on your body.
I was familiar with that. I'd have to dive into the connotations of tattoos in China (particularly back then).
L5R did a great job with them and the tattooed monk was always a favorite.
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Actually, weren't tattoos a lot more common in Japan before the 20th century?
Actually, weren't tattoos a lot more common in Japan before the 20th century?
No. The tattoo has always been considered tabboo in Japan. When criminals were caught, by order of the shogun, a tattoo was placed as a 'ring' around your upper arm, to mark you as a criminal. The yakuza took that mark as a sign of status among the lowest caste of society, and took the tattoo to a whole new level, creating whole body tattoos. But even among the yakuza such tattoos cover everything, except areas that are easily exposed outside of clothing. Therefore, body tattoos stop at mid-shin, and to your elbows. The hands, neck, feet, lower shins, lower arms and head never receive tattoos.
When foreign sailors visited Japan, foreigners were considered as low or lower than the lowest class of Japanese society. Sailors getting Japanese tattoos is a tradition among the western navies, however getting such tattoos were done in the back corners of the red light districts. No tattoo parlors existed in the main part of any town.
It's not a new thing, that Japanese consider tattoos a mark of lowly status, this has been so for over a thousand years.
Edit: the aboriginal Ainu of Hokkaido (northern Japan), are an indigenous non-Japanese people whose women wear tattoos to mark their marital status. Historically the Ainu were pushed to near extinction from centuries of oppression. To Japanese anyone wearing a tattoo was a barbarian or it's equivalent as an outsider to normal society.
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[threadjack]Yep, when I was in South Korea in '08 there were still people being jailed/in jail for tattooing. I found some good tattooists though.[/threadjack]
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There are very successful tattoo artists in Japan, but they aren't allowed to put signs, nor even have a place of business. Work is done in the home, and knowing where to find them is by reputation only, and the right connections. There are no "tattoo parlors" anywhere in Japan.
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A paper talisman user.
Perhaps as an alchemist archetype with a selection of divine discoveries, who creates paper talismans instead of mixing extracts.
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I'd like to see the reintroduction of the martial arts styles found in Oriental Adventures. You spend so many feats to master a style and the style benefits are given as a bonus.
I'd like to see the reintroduction of the martial arts styles found in Oriental Adventures. You spend so many feats to master a style and the style benefits are given as a bonus.
We actually have reintroduced martial arts styles in our fashion in our previous 2 books (and continuing it in HoE III). We would love to expand upon it a bit in a setting book however.
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If I were designing an Oriental setting, I would actually make it a point to include points of continuity with Western culture and mythology. Just as an example, many Oriental settings seem to go out of their way to make sure you never seen an NPC wielding an axe or mace, or wearing mail. Likewise, religious diversity would be nice. While it's tidier in some ways to adopt a central mythos for a setting, eastern Asia has been home to numerous religious, including Buddhism, Jainism, and hundreds of local religions. There were cults in Tibet and India that in some cases partially merged with Buddhism but in other respects remained distinct practices.
I'm guessing that with a Three Kingdoms basis, there will be lots of anachronistic elements. Otherwise, the technology level is fairly low. Further, if you look at early eras, Japan was a weak, rural state, in many respects, a disunited Chinese colony. Something like the high Samurai culture would imply a more modern form of Buddhism than would be present in the main China-like empire. It's not a showstopper; it's not any weirder than adding platemail and France to tribal Britain and its early kings. But it is weird, and it is work.
I think overall I would say, shoot for a "fairy tale" setting with a modern viewpoint that dispenses with mythological and historical accuracy. But ground it in a somewhat realistic world, such that the PCs are easier to portray as people rather than stereotypes.
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I'd also like to see some scrolls like the books found in #30 manuals of improvement where you can read these scrolls and gain the associated feat on the scroll. Just like in the movies, when the hero finds a mysterious book, studies it and learns a secret technique.
Aside from that, everyone else was pretty much spot on with the suggestions about an eastern inspired setting.
@RJGrady
Competing religions are very much a part of history regardless of where you are. I think we can best represent that by having different cultures have different interpretations of similar divine forces.
I think the core of any good setting is not only incorporating historical and mythological elements but identifying that which is most iconic about that sort of setting (revolvers belong in a western setting, katanas in japan, etc). While we are using the 3 Kingdoms period as a base, it's not going to be the only thing.
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Many religions of Japan are syncretic, meaning many religions influenced one another, so that Buddhism in Japan has elements of Daoism and Shinto as a mixed belief system. Buddhists in China believe that Japanese Buddhism is impure, being too much of a mix of belief systems, for example. The same is true of Shinto, elements of Buddhism has mixed with it's faith.
Shugendo (the path of Shugenja), a folk based religion, while influenced and intermingled with Shinto, Buddhism and Daoism was always considered an illegal religion in pre-modern Japan. It's founder was exiled to a very active volcanic island off Toykyo Bay.
So except for extreme cases (Shugendo, Christianity), most religions in Japan don't compete, rather they get married.
Indeed. Well said.
I always appreciated the elements of folk/history that get mixed into their religions. Emperors and generals become Gods (or at least objects of worship). Then again this is not totally a eastern-only thing (Saints?).
Some, like Confucianism, are more an ethical and philosophical system than a religion despite it being treated as a religion (The debate rages on if it is a religion or philosophy and where to draw the line).
I have an American friend on a work-training program visiting Japan last year, that has a military tattoo on his left upper arm and had tried to enter a public bath house. Once his shirt was removed and the tattoo exposed, the attendants politely asked him to leave.
In the right company at the right location (semi-private) one can have a discussion/view tattoos for a photography session, but in the general public - this would not happen.
They are indeed that despised.
I was looking into it and talking with some of my friends from China. Apparently there is not that much of a stigma in China.
Contributor
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There's a great BRP book called "Celestial Empire" that you can buy here, that represents Chinese religion in a reasonably coherent manner. It's important to realise the synchretism was common there as well, and some Buddhist sects were Taoist influenced, while others were not. Buddhism, of course, doesn't deny the existence of gods, merely seeks to circumvent them and other cosmic forces of destiny or karmic entrapment. Taoism blends with folk religion, which is, of course, basically local paganism, in addition to its philosophical aspect.
As for tattoos - here.
Tattoos are a minority group/criminals thing, but minority groups aren't as looked down on as in Japan (there's a lot more of them).
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on a somewhat different tangent, it would be nice to have a section on the roles/attitudes/flavor of the different classes. I mean some are pretty obvious, like rouge or fighter, but what are oracles like? magi? alchemists?
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I would certainly loot the seemingly endless wealth of possibilities provided by the Yokai spirits! Some movies that could help:
- "Spirited Away"
- "The Great Yokai War"
- "Yokai Monsters: Spook Warfare" (Video review here: http://cinemassacre.com/2013/02/15/yokai-monsters-spook-warfare/ )
- "Yokai Monsters: One Hundred Monsters"
- "Yokai Monsters: Along With Ghosts"
Though certainly not traditional theme-park "Eastern" material, I always thought that the Easter Island giant statues made for a very creepy and unearthly setting, and Australian native "Dream Time" imagery should provide some fantastic sources of monsters. Add on top of that the various ways that Lovecraft, Arthur Merritt, and other weird fiction authors have invoked eldritch mysteries into settings in and around the Pacific Islands, it seems like a natural fit for Pathfinder's often Lovecraftian flavor of pulp fantasy, and a great way to inject something new into "Eastern-flavored" fantasy RPGs.
Also not strictly traditional theme-park "Eastern" material, I've always thought that the film "Big Trouble in Little China" seemed like it would be a fabulous inspiration for an RPG campaign setting: freakish monsters, mysterious alternate universes under the streets of a Chinatown, eccentric wizards, martial-artist street gangs, demon-gods, not-quite-living-or-dead ghoul sorcerers, and lots of other fun ideas abound here, and should be right at home in a pulp fantasy setting!
And then, you have the amazing varieties of terrifying undead presented in all the various Japanese, Korean, Thai, Chinese, and Filipino horror movies that surfaced in America in the wake of the surprise success of remakes like "The Ring" and "The Grudge". A lot of these films seem to have these sorts of ghosts thriving in and around technology in a world where people no longer live in harmony with the natural world or with the past of their ancestors; I've considered from time to time adapting these sorts of stories to a fantasy setting with magic serving in place of technology as a focus for "J-Horror" style hauntings (picture "The Ring", for example, with a crystal ball or magic mirror, instead of a television....)
Fantastic. Thank you SO much Yronimos. Very useful. And MMCJawa we have done a lot in the past and we will be doing more in the future! :-)
We are defiantly including a "divine nature" element to the caste/clan system.
Mongolian stuff would be great.
@ElyasRavenwood
Oh man! We LOVE Judge Dee over here!
Personally, I use to listen to it when I was a kid! Actually that was one of the major sources we are drawing from.
I actually wrote a series of adventures for my home game based on him (the players were the advocates to a Judge/Investigator tasked by the court).
It's been a while since I have read them but the rest of my team actually read them more recently than me.
@Teiidae
For sure. We actually have a "khan" style archetype in Heroes of the East III which is coming out next weekend.
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Oh that is awesome. I first picked the Judge Dee books up at the Harvard book store back in 92. My girl friend and I were lurking there, looking for some books to read on the train ride from boston where we were visiting my cousin, to Washington where my parents lived. Much to my girlfriends irritation, I read the Chinese bell murders in one sitting on the trip down.
I have read them again off and on again over the years. I have always enjoyed them. I love how he talks about "boxers" and such.
Now while I do enjoy Wuxia films, and i did enjoy the "Judge Dee and the phantom flame" movie, I still love the books.
The books seem a little more "grounded" to me.
Little read Goblin you listened to the books? did you have them on cassette tape? If i could find them on CD or something like that, I think it would be fun to listen to on a long car ride.
I already have the unabridged Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings, Storm of Swords, Feast of Crows, and Dance of Dragons on CD. I also have the Lord of the rings, ( all three books) the Hobbit, and the Entire Chronicles of Narnia on CD. I would love to add Judge Dee to that collection.
Well I am very pleased the Judge Dee mystery series are one of your major sources that you are drawing from. I certainly will keep my eyes open for your "heroes of the East 3" book.