Created race created problems


Rules Questions


I'm running a campain where everyone is a created race, and there is no healer. instead the party had the summoner take cure moderate wounds at will. the race builder says that it is treated as an at-will spell like ability which when i looked them up said unless otherwise stated can only be used on themself. i have a similar problem with another player who has invisibility as an at-will spell like ability. im not sure because it seemes like both at-wills should only work on the person instead of the spells description of touch.


You could debate that you can't take cure spells because they can do damage. Other than that, they would have to be monstrous power level races. I don't see where it says spell like abilities are self only. Can you provde the refrence?

The Exchange

You didn't foresee difficulties with infinite healing per day? Well, I'm guessing you won't make that mistake twice. And invisibility at will, particularly the PF version which includes folks nearby, is only slightly less abusable. I don't use the Advanced Race Guide, nor if I did would I permit players to design their own races - sorry, guys, but you know darn well that "game balance" isn't a player's first impulse.

Grziz, assuming you don't scrap the campaign, it's time for some damage control. My advice is to remember that the PCs' characters are not unique: they're part of a species you've already established as part of your setting. An entire species, all of whom are NPCs and many of whom are liable to have reasons to oppose the party. Once the players discover the disadvantage of NPC races with the same benefit of unlimited healing and invisibility that they have, some of their enthusiasm for "powerful races" may diminish.

FIGHTER: But we just killed all twelve of those gate guards!
GM: No, actually, you killed three and only critically wounded the others, and the enemy's HealerBotRace squad came and restored them all to full health. Once we're done resolving the invisibility-granted surprise round that their InvisBotRace guy gave them, you can roll initiative. And hurry, because that cave-squid you "killed" in the previous room has already been healed back to 3/4 of its full hp.


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How many race points did you allow them to build with? If it's less than 20, they can't buy an at-will Spell-like ability. If it's 20+, you got what you asked for - races that are amazingly powerful. I suggest following Lincon Hill's suggestion of throwing others of those races at them.


I'll agree with the previous posters and say you shouldn't have allowed custom races. Especially not ones with spell like abilities. And especially not when those spell like abilities are a cure spell or invisbility. Among the races (core, featured, uncommon) almost all spell like abilities are a certain number of times per day, not at will. I wont say all because there is probably a race that I'm overlooking that can cast something like speak with animal at will, but only one species of animal.

Talk to your players and ask them to adjust their races. Tell them they can keep the spell like abilities, but they're limited to 3 times per day. Thats still a lot, but not nearly as broken. If they wont agree to that, then use their created races against them. You have a line of orc barbarians followed by a line of healbotrace healing them up. Maybe they have breath of life at will. Laugh as they realize they can't possibly win.

Really though, you should probably just talk to them about reworking the races. Did they really make interesting races that were different from the other myriad of races that already existed? Or did you end up with something that was basically just a human but with at will spell like abilities?


Bobson wrote:
How many race points did you allow them to build with? If it's less than 20, they can't buy an at-will Spell-like ability. If it's 20+, you got what you asked for - races that are amazingly powerful. I suggest following Lincon Hill's suggestion of throwing others of those races at them.

i limited it to 10 but that was all the person got and i think he took negatives as well


Nawtyit wrote:
You could debate that you can't take cure spells because they can do damage. Other than that, they would have to be monstrous power level races. I don't see where it says spell like abilities are self only. Can you provde the refrence?

the at will thing is under the Universal Monster Rules in the pazio reference


Claxon wrote:

I'll agree with the previous posters and say you shouldn't have allowed custom races. Especially not ones with spell like abilities. And especially not when those spell like abilities are a cure spell or invisbility. Among the races (core, featured, uncommon) almost all spell like abilities are a certain number of times per day, not at will. I wont say all because there is probably a race that I'm overlooking that can cast something like speak with animal at will, but only one species of animal.

Talk to your players and ask them to adjust their races. Tell them they can keep the spell like abilities, but they're limited to 3 times per day. Thats still a lot, but not nearly as broken. If they wont agree to that, then use their created races against them. You have a line of orc barbarians followed by a line of healbotrace healing them up. Maybe they have breath of life at will. Laugh as they realize they can't possibly win.

Really though, you should probably just talk to them about reworking the races. Did they really make interesting races that were different from the other myriad of races that already existed? Or did you end up with something that was basically just a human but with at will spell like abilities?

pretty much humans minus feat and with spell like ability with some negatives to be able to keep it at ten

Liberty's Edge

But because of the power level of spell like ability you are unable to purchase spell like ability unless you gain at least 20 points on your build, doesn't matter if you can afford it or not.

And problems like this are why you should thoroughly study any kind of extra ruleset before just tossing it to pc's and letting them go hog wild.

Quote:
A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself.

Note, that it says nothing about at will only being able to be used on one's self.


Talk to them. Tell them this was a bad idea. Revise the characters to disallow at-will spells and replace that with something else of their choice, subject to your approval.

Other posters have said this already. One even said "if they won't agree..." but it shouldn't be up for debate. If you point out that this kind of thing is game-breaking and as a group you all (DM included) need to find a solution to remove the game-breaking abilities, then any rational player must agree to that; if anyone doesn't, then it's time to evaluate whether that is a player worthy of remaining in your game.

I don't usually advocate draconic player-booting because an iron-fisted DM wants to throw around his authority. Quite the opposite. But I do vehemently insist that my groups, whether I am a DM or a player, are collaborative efforts from everyone involved, DMs and players alike - we are all collaborating to tell a good story and when anyone, DM or player, does things that detract from that story, we all need to work together to find a good solution. I do advocate replacing players who cannot comply with that simple, obvious, requirement.


I'm sorry to everyone if this just posts on my previous thread, I've been looking at feats to try and find a feat that allows me to use two style feats at once aside from going into style master monk.


Nothing aside from Master of Many Styles allows this as far as I know


It isn't at the same time, but Combat Style Master lets you switch styles as a free action, which lets you have an offensive style (say, Dragon) active while attacking, a defensive style (say, Crane) active during the enemies' turn, a niche style (say, Monkey) when you need it, etc.


Agree with DM_Blake: I would let the players know that the custom races are causing an issue, and then ask if you can work with them to revamp them to something more feasible.

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