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The problem with CHA dump not being much of an issue is that you can easily make up for it with skill points and a trait.
I have 2 different characters with 7 cha. Both have a trait to make Diplomacy a class skill (and give it +1), and both use 1 skill point / level on it. So they started level 1 with a +3, and it moves up. It's like having a 14 cha and no class skill. Enough to get by and talk. You can't bluff very much; but then, "bluff or combat" just ends poorly if the GM starts questioning everyone... but usually if you need to bluff you just let the party face handle it and stay quiet.
It does nothing mechanically, it's easy to make up for in skill points... Cha is either need it (Clerics need ~12, CHA casters maximize or put the standard "Caster 14" in, Paladins need as much as they can afford while still maximizing Str) or you should dump it. At least if you are "optimizing".
Str can be replaced out; I do have 7 str guys. It can get a bit wieldy, but Handy Haversacks are awesome, so I haven't had too much of an issue with that. Again, 2 guys with 7 str that haven't missed it (they would fail their CMDs even with a 10 str for what that is worth).
Int can be dumped for humans in 2 skill point classes (yes I heart skill points, but human + level means I get 3 / level, and points are necessary).
Wis/Dex/Con... those are your saves, and Dex/Con are your abilities to stay alive. I'd never dump any of these, except Dex in rare circumstances where I get to use Cha/Int instead (Oracle of Nature/Lore or Student of War).
And as stated, not dumping it just widens the gap between the MAD classes and SAD classes. Monks and Fighters simply need every point they can scrounge, so if that means dumping Cha, that's the way it works.
... There's no guarantee that that fighter would be the party face. A bard, channeling cleric, PFS Sorcerer with half a brain (ie, one that took a trait to get diplomacy as a class skill), or Paladin could be seated at the same table and render the +5, that you've given up a lot for, largely meaningless.
You could also end up at a table with none of the above and your +5 is nearly priceless. Just a few weeks ago the table next to us had 4 PC's with a 7 cha and one with a 5 cha. Since the cha is the low stat no one put a single point in a cha skill. They failed the mission and 3 out of 5 faction missions. No spoilers, but cha skills are pretty much required to complete the mission. (Well it could be done with a lot of magic, but it is unlikely that tier appropriate PC's would have all that magic.)
Yes Thalin I agree that in a few levels you can mostly make up for a low cha with a decent int. That's why I tell people to not dump more than 1 stat and always raise at least 1 social skill (dipl, intim, bluff, or sense motive).
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Here's the difference for when you're playing PFSYour fighter has both a high int and a non dumped cha. Thats harder to do on 20 points.
There's no guarantee that that fighter would be the party face. A bard, channeling cleric, PFS Sorcerer with half a brain (ie, one that took a trait to get diplomacy as a class skill), or Paladin could be seated at the same table and render the +5, that you've given up a lot for, largely meaningless.
In PFS I would dump 1 point of strength, 3 points of charisma and make up the difference with skill points and the circlet of persuasion.
He would not be very effective with charisma checks at level 1. By level 5 he would be.
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Certainly didn't mean any personal insult there, by the way. But that reductive outlook is pretty much the opposite of what I enjoy about the game. (Character first, mechanics second for me) It's all good though.
Om nom nom.
Now this i take exception to.
There is nothing about min maxing that deprives your character of character. You do not get more mechanics by having less personality nor do you get more personality by being worse mechanically. Personality is somethin YOU put into the character either separately or in harmony with the stats you choose. Hitting that harmony is just as easy with a bad stat as a good one.
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You could also end up at a table with none of the above and your +5 is nearly priceless.
If the mission is skill based and you have a +5 you're pretty likely to fail anyway. Scenario authors also seem to like to throw in multiple checks , either not understanding what that does to your odds of success or while holding out buckets for the tears of the players.
I suspect the latter...
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I'm home now and have access to some of the ideas I've been bouncing around for PFS characters.
Tasha
Female Human (Keleshite) Fighter 7
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 21 (+8 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 60 (7d10+14)
Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +4 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Light Shield Bash +9 (1d4+4/x2) and
. . +2 Longsword +13/+8 (1d8+9/19-20/x2)
Ranged Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +3) +10/+5 (1d8+3/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 19, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +11; CMD 24
Feats Additional Traits, Dodge, Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Defender of the Society, Keleshite Princess (Diplomacy), Observant (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +5, Bluff +2, Climb +10, Diplomacy +13, Disguise +2, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Perception +11, Ride +1, Spellcraft +3, Stealth +1, Survival +4, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common, Kelish, Tien, Varisian
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds, Wand of Lead Blades, Wand of Protection from Evil; Other Gear +1 Agile breastplate, +1 Shield Spikes Light steel shield, +2 Longsword, Blunt arrows (40), Cold Iron Arrows (50), Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +3), Silver Arrows (50), Belt of giant strength +2, Circlet of persuasion, Cloak of resistance +2, Pathfinder's kit, 35 GP, 5 SP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Circlet of persuasion +3 competence bonus to CHA-based checks (skills already included).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
As I go 1/2 xp at 7th level, this would place the character just over 1/3 through her expected lifespan.
At 8th level the character undergoes quite a few changes, looking like this:
Tasha
Female Human (Keleshite) Fighter 8
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 29, touch 14, flat-footed 26 (+11 armor, +3 shield, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 68 (8d10+16)
Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +4 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Light Shield Bash +8/+3 (1d4+8/x2) and
. . +2 Longsword +12/+7 (1d8+16/19-20/x2)
Ranged Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +3) +12/+7 (1d8+3/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +13; CMD 27
Feats Additional Traits, Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack -3/+6, Shield Focus, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Defender of the Society, Keleshite Princess (Diplomacy), Observant (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +4, Bluff +2, Climb +8, Diplomacy +14, Disguise +2, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Perception +12, Ride +0, Spellcraft +3, Stealth +0, Survival +4, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +14
Languages Common, Kelish, Tien, Varisian
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds, Wand of Lead Blades, Wand of Protection from Evil; Other Gear +1 Full plate, +1 Shield Spikes Light steel shield, +2 Longsword, Blunt arrows (40), Cold Iron Arrows (50), Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +3), Silver Arrows (50), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Circlet of persuasion, Cloak of resistance +2, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Ring of protection +1, Pathfinder's kit, 1435 GP, 5 SP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Circlet of persuasion +3 competence bonus to CHA-based checks (skills already included).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
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Here's my process:
1) What oddball ability/combination do I want to showcase?
PFS Characters in order:
Neve Pardell: Negative channeling Cleric of Gorum with the Strength and Destruction Domains. She's a walking nuke, and has Control Undead and Selective Channel. She's a high CHA cleric. The one time I was teamed up with another Negative Channeling cleric of Asmodeus, we bickered like two wet cats in a sack (LN and CN), but man did our party like hearing "I move 30' and channel Gorum's blesslings of destruction!" "I move 30' and channel Asmodeus' ire."
Corben Senjak: I wanted to make a legendarily skilled swordsman. Plus, the Weapon Master archetype had just come out. Plus, Dazzling Display looked neat. Then I had four games where I couldn't hit an AC 10 helpless opponent if they threw themselves at my sword, and I focused heavily on DO NOT MISS. Which meant eschewing any feats that give a to-hit penalty, like Power Attack.
Nasir al-Mardani: I decided to make a jovial, fat coward...who happened to be really good with Toppling Magic Missile, and then expanded that to other force themed spells. He was my first (and so far only) 20 stat character (CHA), and my first character to sell a stat below 8.
Agda Haskell: "Y'know, technically a Paladin/Shadowdancer has some interesting synergy...what would cause a Paladin to go all skulky?" Then reading a scene in Game of Thrones, "All men pray to the Lady of Bones, and their prayer is "not today!" She has sent me to answer that prayer. "Yes, today." By far and away my favorite character to play. It's a pity that the 4.3 rules changes means she's no longer table legal, as Paladins of Pharasma finally got completely closed off.
Azar Varthuun: People were saying the Eldritch Knight prestige class sucked, and the Sorcerer was worse than a Wizard, so I decided to combine the two and see how badly two "sub-optimal" concepts sucked when combined. Fighter/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight, Arcane Bloodline, uses Still Spell. Levels 3 and 4 (Fighter 1, Sorc 2 and Fighter 1, Sorc 3) were the Valley of Suck. Since then he's been very effective.
Grabthar the Elder: I found the Fast Healer feat, the Invulnerable Rager archetype, and the old Heirloom Weapon, which I was going to use to make a fossilized dinosaur bone greatclub. They changed the old Heirloom Weapon trait feat, and I shelved the idea. I worked out a backstory of a VERY old Barbarian who (claims) to remember the fall of Sarkoris into the Worldwound. Took Scholar of Old as a Trait to get Knowledge (history) as a class skill and a +1 to Knowledge (planes). Most of his magic items to date have stories tied to them from his past. He's blobbed up more GM credit than any of my other characters, and picked up Shades of Ice to complement his archetype ability. "You call this weather? Back in MY day...."
Brokethegm Steeltusk: Two-weapon half-orc ranger using an Orc Double Axe, and a wand of Lead Blades on a spring loaded wrist sheathe. Writes regular letters home to his mother in Belkzen. Just got an axe-beak animal companion. Focuses on Strength...and when your attack string is routinely throwing 2d6 attacks from each hand, it tends to get noticed.
Kod Pace: "Hey, flanking is a lot easier if you've got a reach weapon." Got GM credit for First Steps, started as a level 2 Rogue, with EWP: Fouchard from a Rogue Talent. Name was a mocking response to a player in our group who names his characters "Blunderbuss" and "Spellbook." but the character's background is that he's used to using a gaffing hook from the side of a ship to slice up whale carcasses...and being a Pathfinder was less risky and paid better. Uses Accelerated Drinker (and has the Toothy racial trait).
2) Pick what the characters do OUTSIDE of combat.
Neve: She mostly diplomacizes, does Heal and Sense Motive. "Gorum tells me you should learn to lie better. Draw steel so that I might learn you this lesson."
Corben: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Party Face, some Sense Motive and Perception Monkey later on.
Nasir: Comic relief. Bluff. Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana.
Agda: Picking locks, being Stealthy, now Perception, Perform Dance, and a whole raft of Diplomacy-based skills, including Disguise. Scouting and lots of it.
Azar: Climb, Swim, Handle Animals, Knowledge (local), utility spells.
Grabthar: Knowledge Monkey for history and nature, Survival, Climb, Swim.
Brokethegm: Tracking, Stealth, Comic Relief. Broke will follow nearly any plan that someone says with confidence. Hilarity often ensues.
Kod: Skill and Trap Monkey rogue.
3) Feat progression through 5th or 7th level.
4) Stats needed to do feat progression through 5th or 7th level. Try to avoid stats under 10.
I really like having CON of 12 or higher, but unless the concept calls for it, I don't generally see the need to Always Go CON 14+. I'm unlikely to ever dump INT because I like skills too much as a "cool thing to do outside combat." For characters with a stat below 10, I try to make it abundantly clear which stat is the weak one from the character's description and roleplay flavor.
Nasir has a STR of 8. He's also 5'8 and 250 lbs and breathes hard going up flights of stairs.
Grabthar has a CHA of 8. He's crotchety and cranky, and grumbles about the Good Old Days. He's got an INT of 12, reflecting his breadth of experience, and he does know how to Aid Another with Diplomacy by knowing when to keep his mouth shut.
Brokethegm has a CHA of 8. He has no concept of social decorum or subtlety. He'll also follow the advice of ANY Pathfinder who seems to be smarter or more cunning than he is. If you can't explain your plan in two sentences or less, he'll follow what he understands... Hijinks very often ensue.
5) Where in Golarion does this character come from? Why are they a Pathfinder? Sometimes this will be set by the Feat Progression or Non-Combat role. While I'm fortunate to play with an RP-heavy group, each of these characters can be summed up with a two or three sentence "schtick" for when I get set down at a table full of strangers.
6) What do they look like?
7) What was their family like? How did that family shape them?
8) What are their goals outside of the Society?
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You're right, its the talk of min-maxing I find tedious beyond words.
Its a thread about character optimization, what did you expect? If you have religious objections to baseball you don't walk into a baseball stadium.
As you say, one stat is as good as another, after all.
I have clearly, repeatedly, and unabashedly been saying quite the opposite.
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20 point human optimized 14 14 14 12 12 11Optimized for WHAT? Thats the problem.
I could make a good Rogue Skill monkey, without even changing the order. Three +2 modifiers and two +1 modifiers. You get the same ATK wiht both ranged and melee weapons, a medium damage bonus, nice HP, an extra skill per level. 9 skills is a lot of skills. You have lots of options on class skills to get the that nice +3 bonus multiple times, snd you get another bonus of +1 or +2 on almost every skill. Kick in a CHA bump at 4th level, and you get bouses in all of your Skills.
Actually, this would make a pretty fair pre-gen build for almost any class. You don't end with with an awesome character, but you don't get a sucky one either.
... If the mission is skill based and you have a +5 you're pretty likely to fail anyway. Scenario authors also seem to like to throw in multiple checks ...
At 2nd level most of the DC's are pretty low. Going from a -2 to a +5 is a pretty big jump and gives you a decent chance to make most of them. Even more so if you have a guidance going along with a couple of aid another actions (Even with a -2 on the roll, 3 out of 5 of the other folks should be able to beat a 10).
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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... If the mission is skill based and you have a +5 you're pretty likely to fail anyway. Scenario authors also seem to like to throw in multiple checks ...At 2nd level most of the DC's are pretty low. Going from a -2 to a +5 is a pretty big jump and gives you a decent chance to make most of them. Even more so if you have a guidance going along with a couple of aid another actions (Even with a -2 on the roll, 3 out of 5 of the other folks should be able to beat a 10).
Really? I seem to recall quite a few low level faction missions that required a DC 20 skill check (in a trained-only skill to boot). Diplomacy checks for faction missions tend to start at 20 and work their way up.
The ones I can remember weren't that high. At least not the primary mission critical ones that you had pass. (Or they were high but you could do other things to give you a bonus like offer bribes.)
But even so a +5 with some other bonuses gives you a decent chance. A -2 gives you almost no chance without alot of situation bonuses.
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I think there's some assumption that it's PFS that's rewarding it. That's not the case... it's Pathfinder in general.
Having a 7 CHA is easy to make up by having Diplomacy transformed into a +1 class skill, as stated. Really throwing in Bluff gives you another option, but most people only take 1 "Social" skill up in the first place. So CHA has little impact even in social interaction. My 7-Cha fighter at 9th level is +10 to diplomacy.
As to out-of-combat, that's laregely roleplaying. I can roleplay well regardless of stats (it may even add a little comedy if I "overplay" a 7 int character... my one I have is a human and uses his class skill bonus, so still has 3 points/lvl to throw around). Also, most have solid skills in acrobatics and such (all except the 7-int one I mentioned before), and as stated, my characters without exception are decent at diplomacy. Out of combat: handled.
As to combat, everyone should be good at what they do. Running up and trying to hit with a bonus not on part for meager damage makes you a liability, not an asset. If you're going to try to use CMB, you'd better make sure you're at least over the +20 threshhold by level 9, and you should be closing in on the +30 threshhold... otherwise again you're a party liability, and they'll spend more time keeping you alive than fighting the monster.
Don't like to stat dump but still want to be decent? Play a support caster... those are going to be good regardless of stats (they don't target enemies generally, and don't need the insane MADness this game requires to be a front-liner). Archers are a second. But proper opptimization actually makes characters that are able to take on MORE situations, not less. Be good at your job, have fun with your character, and even if you have a low charisma, get some social skills so you can have fun outside of combat :).
EDIT: oh, and if you're going to dump CHA, go ahead and go down to 7, not 8. It's 2 free build points in exchange for -1 social... which unless you're putting points into social skills anyway isn't going to make a BIT of difference. I always scratch my head when I see "8s" instead of "7s", especially in Int for 2-skill-point-per-level classes.
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A character with a +5 at level 1 (when you really are at the mercy of the dice gods) grows into a character that beats DC25 checks the majority of the time by mid-level.
To use a Season 4 scenario as an example:
Most of the mission critical checks are in the DC15 - DC20 range in the 8-9 sub-tier.
Only a few possible checks have a DC25, and characters that manage to gather information will avoid the high DC skill checks.
The fighter I posted would have a 50% chance of beating the highest DC check, diplomacy DC25 against somebody for whom diplomacy is an inappropriate tactic, and auto succeed on few other checks.
I was quoting BNW who was quoting someone else and implying that a +5 was inconsequential. I am 80% certain that it was a +5 total to the skill check.
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A good "PFS Standard" for stats is not with a 20, but a 19 (17/14/14/14/7/7). This gives you a +5 @ level 4, gives you +6 during retirement, and +2 in 3 relevant scores. This stat block works great for Wizards (7 str/cha, 14 in all save stats), Fighters (7 int/cha), and others.
I typically don't go the full mile... 16/14/14/12/12/7 are my typical points (dump 1 stat). My only "double 7" character has 7 in Str & cha, but that is a dex-based Lore Warden (Agile Manuevers and such) and Str/Chr don't do ANYTHING for that character.
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Well, the 7 str clearly has its disadvantages (the character, currently at 3rd level, effectively can fail to coupe de grace, and has done so severeal times... in short, no damage).
And carrying capacity has come into play; realizing that ropes (which I use after pin on grapple) weigh 10 pounds.
It also takes 2 feats and a neck slot to overcome the "Str" disadvantage; but the reward is a pretty darn powerful tengu with good AC :). He'll be a lot better when I reach level 4 and have the agile amulet (and really level 7 when I start doing the heavy damage with it), but he's still quite good, and as I stated before, does his job well (that job being battlefield control).
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Wait, so you're dumping STR on a PC who is actively creating opportunities for his own CMD to matter? That's 2 points of CMD that you have to make up for elsewhere.
I mean, I'm sure you arranged things to come out in your favor in the end, but that's a lot different than "Str/Chr don't do ANYTHING for that character".
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I dumped strength to 7 on both of my sorcerers. I didn't go lower than that on my gnome sorcerer, even though a 5 is theoretically possible.
But being able to carry gear is a reason not to dump str on anyone carrying weapons and armor. I have a halfling who uses dex for his hit and damage rolls with a scimitar through dervish dance, and I still put 2 points into boosting his str to 10, so he could carrying around all his equipment.
... In my defence, the thread title contained a qeustion, whether to optimise or not. ...
Actually I didn't read it that way. When I read the thread title together with the original post I thought he was asking.
Whether or not they are optimized, do you have rules you always use when making new characters?
Now I'm not sure who is correct.
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Yes, but the DCs PFS NPCs toss are very low compared to their uber-build PC counterparts.
PFS, even in tier 7-11, is still significantly easier than most of the homebrews I've been in. That being said, PFS PCs are significantly weaker as well. I'm still not convinced of the necessity of hyper-optimization for PFS, though.