+1 gun


Pathfinder Society

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Liberty's Edge

Ok, so I am unclear on this and asked my VL, he said he didn't know either. I am playing a gunslinger, but I have a boon that allowed him to spend 6PA to get a gun of greater value than he could purchase with his current gold limit. He has 2000+ gold now, can I make it +1? or because the then total value of my gun would exceed my Item Limit do I need to wait to enchant the masterwork gun?


+1 weapons and armor are always available as long as you have the gold to spend on it.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Except Guns are never always available.

3/5

Except that you get one free gun under the normal always available rules if you are a gunslinger.

You need the fame for any guns beyond the first.

Grand Lodge

Saint Caleth wrote:

Except that you get one free gun under the normal always available rules if you are a gunslinger.

You need the fame for any guns beyond the first.

Correct.

You start out with a gun as a Gunslinger with the broken condition.

You may spend 300GP of your own to modify it, making it Masterwork (you do this on your own time, and you do it yourself).

After that, you may upgrade the gun using the standard rules.


Not familiar with this boon. If it is not the battered firearm you started with (or masterwork after using the gunsmithing feat), then you must meet the fame requirement to upgrade it. Firearms are not considered always available, not even for gunslingers.


If the boon says something like "You may spend 6 prestige to make a free purchase up to XXXXg" (where XXXX is at least as much or more than the value of a +1 gun) then you may buy that gun with prestige.

Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play (pg 27 footnote 3) wrote:
Once per session, you can acquire any single item of this cost [150g/750g] or less from your faction by spending the appropriate amount of Prestige Points. Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp and cannot be sold.

Italic section added for clarity.

In other words, the gun would be worth 0g, and (like all items purchased with prestige) not subject to availability limits.

If you want better/more specific advice, it may be worth your time to type the actual text of the boon.

Liberty's Edge

My question doesn't concern the legality of purchasing the gun with the boon. I know I did that right. For the sake of clarity, it is Expedition Manager and it says. "You can acquire any single item of the listed price or less at no cost. An Item acquired in this way is worth 0gp and cannot be sold. In addition, your archaeological findings may contain clues about historical events, arcane enigmas, or other mysteries. As a freee action you gain a bonus on a knowledge history arcana, the planes or religion check equal to the prestige points that you spent When you use this cross this boon off of the chronicle sheet.
2pp 1000 or less
4pp 2000 or less
6pp 3500 or less.

so I spent 6 and acquired a Mwk Pepperbox.

I want to make the pepperbox magical which costs 2000g but I do not know if I can do this because that would take the pepperbox value to 5350, my current fame only allows me to purchase items of up to 5,250.

Grand Lodge

Altus Lucrim wrote:
I want to make the pepperbox magical which costs 2000g but I do not know if I can do this because that would take the pepperbox value to 5350, my current fame only allows me to purchase items of up to 5,250.

I'm the above-mentioned VL.

He means does his Fame have to be enough to purchase the full gold price of this gun, or, since it was bought with prestige (and then technically worth 0gp) does upgrading it to +1 make it cost a total of 2000, which his Fame is high enough to allow him to buy?

Shadow Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

I don't believe you can enchant it. As it's total cost exceeds your current fame limits. The item is worth 0 gp, but still costs 3350 for the purposes of upgrading it.

So you spent 6 pp to get it for free.
Then you'll need to have enough fame to upgrade it.

Just like if I spend 2pp and get free MWK scimitar.
I have to wait until I have enough fame to make a it a +1 keen weapon (effective cost of 8315).

That's my understanding, at least.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

the value of 0gp is for the purpose of selling the item only, not for basing the value of the item for purpose of upgrades.

Grand Lodge

That's what I was leaning towards, but didnt want to cheat him out of it. :/

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

Dragnmoon wrote:
the value of 0gp is for the purpose of selling the item only, not for basing the value of the item for purpose of upgrades.

The GtPSOP says, "Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp and cannot be sold.", not 'Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp only when you try to sell them, otherwise you calculate their full value for fame limits."

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The problem is that, while guns aren't "always available", the +1 enchantment is. He acquired the "not always available" gun through a legitimate source, I do not know why that would restrict the availability of +1.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Walter Sheppard wrote:

I don't believe you can enchant it. As it's total cost exceeds your current fame limits. The item is worth 0 gp, but still costs 3350 for the purposes of upgrading it.

So you spent 6 pp to get it for free.
Then you'll need to have enough fame to upgrade it.

Just like if I spend 2pp and get free MWK scimitar.
I have to wait until I have enough fame to make a it a +1 keen weapon (effective cost of 8315).

That's my understanding, at least.

You are correct in the ruling in your example. The problem is that your example is not a good comparison as Keen is not an always available enchantment, +1 is.


It's not the enchantment that is always available, it's the +1 weapons and armor. The items themselves are what is considered always available. Firearms are never considered always available, +1 or otherwise.


Guide to Pathfinder Organized Play wrote:

For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for the masterwork cost again. Instead, you pay the difference between the cost of the +1 item and that of the masterwork item. This rule also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step. Note that this only applies to items of the same kind—you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into a +1 greatsword. A mundane item can not be upgraded to masterwork, nor can nonmagical aspects of equipment be upgraded (such as the strength rating on a composite bow).

So we know that a masterwork weapon can be upgraded to a +1. doesn't this refer to the act of enchanting it, rather than buying a new one, which would cost PP?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Those boons are typically not for upgrades. They only work on full item purchases.


Worrying about whether or not a level 3? or 4? PC can enchant a friggin pepperbox seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

At the end of the day a pepperbox at level 4 is a really really powerful advantage.

Grand Lodge

Andrew Christian wrote:
Those boons are typically not for upgrades. They only work on full item purchases.

Link?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Seth Gipson wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Those boons are typically not for upgrades. They only work on full item purchases.
Link?

Not to mention the OP is talking about upgrading the item purchased on the boon, not using the boon to upgrade the item.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Seth Gipson wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Those boons are typically not for upgrades. They only work on full item purchases.
Link?

I'm pretty sure its in the compilation thread, but also look in the Fortress of the Nail thread as well.

Grand Lodge

Link to 'Can you sell free items' thread, found through Fortress thread.

Mark says, more or less, that the item cannot be sold. It doesnt say anything about it not being upgradable.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I could be wrong and misremembering. and I really don't have time to go searching for the link today. Lots and lots of work to do before I go on my Honeymoon starting next Wednesday.

But I'm pretty sure it was clarified that the Fortress of the Nail boon could not be used for an upgrade. That it had to be used for a single item of that cost or less.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Andrew Christian wrote:

I could be wrong and misremembering. and I really don't have time to go searching for the link today. Lots and lots of work to do before I go on my Honeymoon starting next Wednesday.

But I'm pretty sure it was clarified that the Fortress of the Nail boon could not be used for an upgrade. That it had to be used for a single item of that cost or less.

I don't understand how that prevents someone from later paying to upgrade an item gained by the boon.

Grand Lodge

Andrew Christian wrote:

I could be wrong and misremembering. and I really don't have time to go searching for the link today. Lots and lots of work to do before I go on my Honeymoon starting next Wednesday.

But I'm pretty sure it was clarified that the Fortress of the Nail boon could not be used for an upgrade. That it had to be used for a single item of that cost or less.

The OP isn't talking about using the boon to upgrade an item. He used the boon to get the item. He is now asking if paying for the +1 is restricted by fame.


Nobody is saying that you can't upgrade the item. We are saying that you must meet the fame requirements of the upgraded item to do so.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

trollbill wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

I could be wrong and misremembering. and I really don't have time to go searching for the link today. Lots and lots of work to do before I go on my Honeymoon starting next Wednesday.

But I'm pretty sure it was clarified that the Fortress of the Nail boon could not be used for an upgrade. That it had to be used for a single item of that cost or less.

I don't understand how that prevents someone from later paying to upgrade an item gained by the boon.

It doesn't. I was making a parallel comment.

However, upgrading the item would still be restricted by fame the same as the item itself would be.

So if he purchased a gun with the boon, upgrading it even to a +1 would be restricted by Fame.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Altus Lucrim wrote:
Ok, so I am unclear on this and asked my VL, he said he didn't know either. I am playing a gunslinger, but I have a boon that allowed him to spend 6PA to get a gun of greater value than he could purchase with his current gold limit. He has 2000+ gold now, can I make it +1? or because the then total value of my gun would exceed my Item Limit do I need to wait to enchant the masterwork gun?

Gold limit?

Item Limit?

Are these terms being used interchangeably with Fame Limit?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Altus Lucrim wrote:

My question doesn't concern the legality of purchasing the gun with the boon. I know I did that right. For the sake of clarity, it is Expedition Manager and it says. "You can acquire any single item of the listed price or less at no cost. An Item acquired in this way is worth 0gp and cannot be sold. In addition, your archaeological findings may contain clues about historical events, arcane enigmas, or other mysteries. As a freee action you gain a bonus on a knowledge history arcana, the planes or religion check equal to the prestige points that you spent When you use this cross this boon off of the chronicle sheet.

2pp 1000 or less
4pp 2000 or less
6pp 3500 or less.

so I spent 6 and acquired a Mwk Pepperbox.

I want to make the pepperbox magical which costs 2000g but I do not know if I can do this because that would take the pepperbox value to 5350, my current fame only allows me to purchase items of up to 5,250.

You cannot add the +1 until your fame would allow you to do so. Even though the item is worth 0gp resale value, it still has an overall value of an item in regards to how Fame works.

These boons are not a loophole to avoid the fame requirements to upgrade items to levels that are not always available.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I suppose the question isn't "can I get around the fame requirement to upgrade items to levels that are not alwasy available." The question is "is a +1 enhancement on a weapon always available?"

The way I'm reading the Guide, it is, even if that base weapon is expensive. The pepperbox is available through the boon, and the +1 enhancement is always available. This is a special case, but then, boons sometimes allow you to do pretty cool things you couldn't do otherwise.

You couldn't make it keen, or +2, or flaming, without addressing the Fame estrictions.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

But guns aren't always available, and normally a +1 Gun would not be always available either.

Just because he got special access to the gun through the boon, does not mean that the +1 would also be accessible without fame, when normally a +1 Gun would need a Fame requirement.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

So you understand that a +1 weapon enhancement is only sometimes always available?

I'm not as familiar with guns. In normal circumstances, once a character has the Fame to normally purchase a masterwork pistol, does she need additional Fame to upgrade it to +1 enhancement?

Is that called out as an explicit exception to the rule that +1 enhancements are always available?

Scarab Sages 5/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Chris Mortika wrote:

So you understand that a +1 weapon enhancement is only sometimes always available?

I'm not as familiar with guns. In normal circumstances, once a character has the Fame to normally purchase a masterwork pistol, does she need additional Fame to upgrade it to +1 enhancement?

Is that called out as an explicit exception to the rule that +1 enhancements are always available?

Chris,

you never buy a "+1 weapon enhancement", you buy the +1 Longsword, etc. You just have to pay for the difference since you have already paid for the masterworked weapons (essentially selling them for 100% value). By your logic that a +1 weapon enhancment is a separate item, you would only ever need enough fame for 2,000 gp for the +1 not enough fame for the masterwork weapon and the +1 enhancement.

Thus if a pepperbox is not always available, neither is a +1 pepperbox.

edited -for clarity

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Not necessarily a seperate item, Rusty. A seperate purchase.

But --and please correct me if I'm wrong -- a +1 weapon is always available, so you don't need Fame for either the masterwork weapon (assuming it's not a firearm) nor the +1 enhancement.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

For a non-firearm weapon, you don't need any specific amount of Fame to purchase a weapon, its masterwork version, or its +1 version.

But since a Firearm is not always available, its masterwork version (with the exception of the Gunslingers class feature), or its +1 version are also not always available.

It has nothing to do with some weapons are and some weapons aren't always available.

+1 Dragonhide Armor is not always available either, because Dragonhide is not always available.

It has more to do with whether the base item is always available. If it is, then the masterwork and +1 versions are also.

Scarab Sages 5/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Correct, non-firearms are always available, either mundane or +1. Sorry bit of a bad example.

Firearms however are not always available. So if a mundune firearm is not always available, why would a +1 firearm be always available?

My (not very clearly made) point was that "+1 weapon enhancement" is not on the list of always available items. +1 Weapons are.

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:

Always Available Items

You may always purchase the following items or equipment so long as you’re in an appropriately sized settlement (see above).
• All basic armor, gear, items, and weapons from Chapter 6 of the Core Rulebook, including Small and Large-sized items. This does not include equipment made from dragonhide, but it does include equipment made from the other special materials, such as alchemical silver and cold iron (see the Special Materials section on page 154 of the Core Rulebook). All mundane (completely nonmagical) weapons, armor, equipment, and alchemical gear found in any other source that is legal for play are considered always available.
• +1 weapons (2,000 gp + 300 for the masterwork weapon cost + item cost)
• +1 armor (1,000 gp + 150 for the masterwork armor cost + item cost)
• +1 shields (1,000 gp + 150 for the masterwork armor cost + item cost)
• Potions and oils of 0- or 1st-level spells at caster level 1st (50 gp or less)
• Scrolls of 0- or 1st-level spells at caster level 1st (50 gp or less)
• Wayfinder (50% discount—250 gp; see page 299 of The
Inner Sea World Guide)
Beyond the gear noted above, your character is restricted to purchasing additional items from his accumulated Chronicle sheets, or by capitalizing on his fame within his faction. Weapons, armor, equipment, magic items and so on that are outside of these lists are not available for purchase at any time.

Bolding mine.

Grand Lodge

Rusty Ironpants wrote:
Firearms however are not always available. So if a mundune firearm is not always available, why would a +1 firearm be always available?

So I think this is the important part of that discussion, and I think it perfectly answers the question.

However, that is not the question the OP asked.

The question is whether or not the 'cost' of the item, to determine what he is allowed to buy with his current Fame, is based on the gun 'costing' 0, since it came from the boon or full-price for the Mwk Pepperbox item. Making the enchantment stack with the actual cost for the item seems right to me, but I am yet to see any proof to back it up.


Altus Lucrim wrote:
Ok, so I am unclear on this and asked my VL, he said he didn't know either. I am playing a gunslinger, but I have a boon that allowed him to spend 6PA to get a gun of greater value than he could purchase with his current gold limit. He has 2000+ gold now, can I make it +1? or because the then total value of my gun would exceed my Item Limit do I need to wait to enchant the masterwork gun?

As has been excellently summarized by this thread, there is no official answer to this question, and a lot of people are going to argue a lot of different answers. So what it comes down to is this: You have two options.

One, you can just do it, and probably somebody will complain.
Two, you can wait for a few more fame points, and then someone will probably find something else to complain about.

Really, an official answer wouldn't even change these options; they would just change the type of complaints.

Scarab Sages 5/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Seth Gipson wrote:
Rusty Ironpants wrote:
Firearms however are not always available. So if a mundune firearm is not always available, why would a +1 firearm be always available?

So I think this is the important part of that discussion, and I think it perfectly answers the question.

However, that is not the question the OP asked.

The question is whether or not the 'cost' of the item, to determine what he is allowed to buy with his current Fame, is based on the gun 'costing' 0, since it came from the boon or full-price for the Mwk Pepperbox item. Making the enchantment stack with the actual cost for the item seems right to me, but I am yet to see any proof to back it up.

Good point Seth, but if a +1 firearm was always available, the cost of the item to compare against the fame total would be irrelevant. Assuming it is not always available, then the cost of the item must be compared to the purchase limit set by the character's fame.

I think the fact that the boon states the item is worth 0 gp is only intended to prevent the item from being sold, not to make it easier to upgrade.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Seth Gipson wrote:
Rusty Ironpants wrote:
Firearms however are not always available. So if a mundune firearm is not always available, why would a +1 firearm be always available?

So I think this is the important part of that discussion, and I think it perfectly answers the question.

However, that is not the question the OP asked.

The question is whether or not the 'cost' of the item, to determine what he is allowed to buy with his current Fame, is based on the gun 'costing' 0, since it came from the boon or full-price for the Mwk Pepperbox item. Making the enchantment stack with the actual cost for the item seems right to me, but I am yet to see any proof to back it up.

For balance purposes, you have to consider the actual cost of the item as though you purchased it when considering if you have enough Fame to upgrade it.

And you can never resell the item, no matter what you upgrade it to.

The only other option is, you cannot upgrade items that are given for free and are otherwise worth 0gp on resale.

Grand Lodge

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

[Good point Seth, but if a +1 firearm was always available, the cost of the item to compare against the fame total would be irrelevant. Assuming it is not always available, then the cost of the item must be compared to the purchase limit set by the character's fame.

I think the fact that the boon states the item is worth 0 gp is only intended to prevent the item from being sold, not to make it easier to upgrade.

I was never under the impression the +1 always available stuff would have any impact on this at all. As I said, your comment about 'why would a +1 gun be always available if a regular one isnt?' strikes the nail on the head.

The always available part has nothing to do with this.

1) OP is not able to upgrade his Mwk Pepperbox to +1 right now, cause the items normal cost has to be taken into account and that cost plus the cost of the enchantment is too high for his Fame.

or

2) OP is able to upgrade his Mwk Pepperbox to +1 right now, cause his boon makes the item's cost effectively 0, the enchantment of the item only costs 2000gp, and his Fame is high enough to let him buy a 2000gp item.

You are saying it's #2. I am inclined to agree with you, but as Patrick said (and I figured this is how it would wind up lol) there isnt any kind of rule on this atm, so it's likely going to be a 'Expect table variation' situation. :P

So, the final answer needs to be "Altus, don't spend the gold now. Save it for when I kill your character, so you have enough to get him Raised. Muwahahahah!" :P

Scarab Sages 5/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

I agree this will probably not be resolved without an official ruling of some sort.

For the record though, my interpretation would be #1.

Grand Lodge

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

I agree this will probably not be resolved without an official ruling of some sort.

For the record though, my interpretation would be #1.

*facepalm*

Yea, that's what i meant to type. Cant even pay enough attention to my own post I'm typing long enough to get it right. :P


Seth Gipson wrote:


1) OP is not able to upgrade his Mwk Pepperbox to +1 right now, cause the items normal cost has to be taken into account and that cost plus the cost of the enchantment is too high for his Fame.

Thanks for this discussion folks. After reading through this, I have to go with number one above. Specific trumps general (and the dragonhide example clinched it for me. :)

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Colorado Springs aka Dust Raven

Parallel question, just ease of figuring things out:

You received a boon which granted you an item up to X cost for free, that item has a value of 0gp so cannot be sold. You pick a masterwork greatsword (normally worth 200gp)

You have a fame of 22, so may purchase items up to 8000gp.

Could you upgrade this masterwork greatsword to +2 greatsword?

A. If the sword's value is 0gp, then the total cost is only 8000gp, and may be purchased.

B. If the sword's value is 200gp, then the total cost is 9650gp and may not be purchased until you fame increases.

The question is which of these is the correct one. I'm extremely inclined to believe B is correct, but the way rules for receiving free items are phrased indicates the item cost/value (before enhancements) is in fact 0gp, and the rules for enhancing items is just the cost of enchantment plus the item cost/value. so RAW it would appear A is correct, but I'm 99.9% positive it is not.

EDIT: I realized I gave pricing for magical weapons rather than armor, so changed the full plate to a greatsword.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

B. The resale value of the armor is 0. But the value of the armor is still what it is.

And +2 armor would only add 4,000gp, not 8,000gp.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Colorado Springs aka Dust Raven

Andrew Christian wrote:
And +2 armor would only add 4,000gp, not 8,000gp.

Heh, I caught that just as I hit submit. Fixed now. :)

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Dust Raven wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
And +2 armor would only add 4,000gp, not 8,000gp.
Heh, I caught that just as I hit submit. Fixed now. :)

Also, a masterwork greatsword has a value of 350 gp not 200 gp.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Colorado Springs aka Dust Raven

1 person marked this as a favorite.
trollbill wrote:
Dust Raven wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
And +2 armor would only add 4,000gp, not 8,000gp.
Heh, I caught that just as I hit submit. Fixed now. :)
Also, a masterwork greatsword has a value of 350 gp not 200 gp.

I'm using the goblin word for fixed, which means "changed to do something different" rather than the normal use, which means "repaired or corrected."

:p

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