Sneak attack and Tiny / Diminutive sizes


Rules Questions


Hi,

My search did not yield a clear answer, so here goes:

Can a Tiny/Diminutive character sneak attack a medium sized creature in other conditions than just "denied Dexterity"

If yes, which are the conditions? Is there any form of Flank-like condition?


Isnt there a feat that allows tiny/diminituive have increased range or act as if they had range 5 ft?


Lunge ?


Yes, works.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final

Just with a BAB+6 requirement, it must be an elite ant squad.

This would also be quite comc themed, one sits dozing near the fire, hits the ant crwaling along ones leg, the level 5 rogue/lev 10 assasin ant easily survives the 1d6 dam, but at least gets interupted in her 3 rounds study to kill and now sneak attacks with lunge and her colleague approaching from behind for 8d6+1d4-5 dam per attack.


Lunge will give the character 5' reach, so that he can flank on his attack. He will not give flank bonus to others, however...


reach 5 does not mean automatically flank bonus for other allies?


No, because the reach bonus procured by Lunge is only on your turn, not during the turn of others (nor during your opportunity attacks).

The malus is still given until your next turn however.


I suppose a case could be made that the flanking partner can ready an action to attack as soon as you're using Lunge. That would still preclude full attacks though.


No, because it wouldn't be your turn.


True.

I don't really understand the logic: if the scenario is moved up 3 size categories, there are no problems...

Shouldn't there be mini-squares for Tiny/Diminutive characters?


Why wouldn't it be my turn? There's no indication anywhere that being interrupted with a readied action during my turn makes the interruption temporarily end my turn.

Sczarni

Surprise rounds, potions of Invisibility and spell. At higher levels maybe rogue with enough levels in another class to use Greater Invisibility or UMD the wand of Greater Invisibility can grant him some sustained damage via sneak. Darkness + darkvision could also work.

Tiny and diminutive sized creatures usually tend to collect in swarms. They aren't really powerful alone.

Maybe you should specify what exactly you want to make or do?


I have a goblin vivisectionist, and when he casts reduce person, he becomes Tiny, which is great fun, but the rogue in the party is missing the flanking, and the goblin can't really backstab... The simple solution would be to avoid becoming Tiny, but it was so much fun playing a "Gremlin"...

Scarab Sages

Doesn't work for a PC, but Evolved Familiar can give a Tiny Familiar Reach with one attack. Maybe good for a Carnivalist or someone with a Valet Familiar and Precise Strike to get a flanking buddy... until the Familiar gets squished, that is.

You're missing the obvious for your character, though... Reach weapon. A Tiny Reach weapon should give you a 5' reach.

<EDITED - Might I suggest a Horsechopper?>


Avh wrote:
No, because it wouldn't be your turn.

I just went over readied actions and the Lunge feat again and it looks like that's a totally legit move. Lunge isn't like an attack action or anything, it's something you set up at the beginning of your turn that lasts until the end of your turn. For that moment you could take advantage of flankers on the other side if your target because you technically threaten them now.

Now, if somebody readies an action for when you attack, their readied action goes off before you attack but after your turn has started and you've already declared you're lunging.

The trade-off is that you can't ready full attack actions. Just individual attacks, so no iteratives. Which you definitely have because a BAB of +6 is the prereq for Lunge.

Sczarni

If there are other classes in party that are partly melee, they should provide flanking, not alchemist. Unless he is that natural attacking beasty alchemist of course.

If there is many casters in party, tell them to prepare few summoning spells and summon lesser versions of monsters (1d3 or 1d4+1) to get more flanks.

Scarab Sages

Remember he said he's a Vivisectionist, so I think he's trying to use his own sneak attack as well as provide a flanking buddy for the rogue.

Now as to whether or now that is wise... At least being tiny gives a bonus to AC.


I don't know of feat or anything like that but if you can convince your DM to roll back the clock so to speak. I've always used the rules from the 3.5 DMG (page 29 for those playing along at home) for dealing with very small creatures.

Basically, a creature two or more size categories smaller can occupy the same square as a larger creature. When it does, it provides flanking for other very small creatures in the same space and to those outside the creatures space.

One example given is two tiny-sized stirges in the same square as a medium-sized creature provide each other with flanking.

This makes very small creatures potential very dangerous mitigating some of the disadvantages of their size.

I'm not sure why this section was never included in the d20 OGL. Then Pathfinder compounded the problem by explicitly making it impossible for the little guys to flank.


Have you considered tiny polearms?


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Have you considered tiny polearms?

Rules-as-written tiny creatures with polearms still have zero reach.

Scarab Sages

Read this thread and decide for yourself. James Jacobs, at least, is of the opinion that a tiny creature with a reach weapon has a 5' reach, and there are multiple examples in published material that agree.

To the OP: you are fortunately probably not in a strict RAW situation. Show that to your GM and ask him for a ruling. I'd imagine most gms would allow it based on that thread. If yours doesn't, you'll just have to go with his ruling. In which case, if you want to flank, it's probably best not to use reduce person.


Thanks all for the high value input.

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