If a feat is worth 5,000 gp, what is the math behind the pricing of Metamagic Rods?


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From the price of a Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone and Gloves of Arrows Snatching, you can deduce that feats are worth 5,000 gp if they were magical items with space limitation.

So how is the value of Metamagic Rods calculated? I'm lost here.


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I don't know the answer to your question, but would point out the following:

Metamagic rods are better than the feats in that they don't eat up higher level spell slots.

The 3 uses per day could be considered a limiting factor, but I think it would be rare for someone to prepare spells using the same metamagic feat more than 3 times eating 3 spells of a higher slot.

The rods also allow enhancing spells above a level you cannot normally cast. E.g, cast a 6th level spell with rods where the feat would require a 7th level spell slot - even when you are not able to cast 7th level spells yet.

Sczarni

you could look to ioun stones, Opalescent White is 10k and grants proficiency with a weapon cost 10k gp.

Scarlet and Green grants Endurance again 10k gp
Dark blue Alertness 10k

Shadow Lodge

Maybe because they need to be held in hand to be used?

Sczarni

and also only go to lvl 1-3.

Quote:

Metamagic Rods: Rods in this special category hold the power to grant metamagic feats to a wielder's spells.

Rods

Metamagic, merciful, minor 1,500 gp
Metamagic (+1 spell level), minor 3,000 gp
Metamagic, merciful, normal 5,500 gp
Metamagic (+2 spell level), minor 9,000 gp
Metamagic (+1 spell level), normal 11,000 gp
Metamagic, merciful, greater 12,250 gp
Metamagic (+3 spell level), minor 14,000 gp
Metamagic (+1 spell level), greater 24,500 gp
Metamagic (+2 spell level), normal 32,500 gp
Metamagic, quicken, minor 35,000 gp
Metamagic (+3 spell level), normal 54,000 gp
Metamagic (+2 spell level), greater 73,000 gp

Metamagic, quicken, normal 75,500 gp

Metamagic (+3 spell level), greater 121,500 gp
Metamagic, quicken, greater 170,000 gp

Clearly the OP hasn't read up on rod pricing in the Ultimate Equipment.


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I don't allow them - nobody else gets to buy 'feats that are better than feats'.


goldomark - As lantzkev points out, there's a formula for pricing metamagic rods. The formula is based on how many levels the metamagic in question raises the spell and maximum level of spell the rod can affect (lesser, normal, or greater rod). Do you think that the rods are too expensive or too cheap though?

strayshift - When you say "nobody else" can gain a similar benefit it makes it sound exclusive to some small group. I did a quick count, and 13 of the 19 core and base classes from the Core rules and APG have spellcasting ability. In fact, most classes can benefit from metamagic rods.

A Fighter might not be able to do anything with a metamagic rod, but he can buy a holy bow to bypass DR/good and do +2d6 damage against evil foes. That seems better than most feats to me, but it wouldn't be particularly useful to the average Wizard, who would probably prefer to enhance his spells instead of his weapon attacks...maybe with a metamagic rod...

Liberty's Edge

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If I were doing a revision, metamagic rods would go. They make very little sense thematically, and they basically make a number of feats obsolete, since you can just buy them at your leisure.


A lot of items are better than feats. A Cloak of Resistance +2 gives you the equivalent of 3 feats (Iron Will, etc) for 4000gp.

Sovereign Court

I don't really like metamagic rods. It just feels like it's too easy compared to metamagic; maybe metamagic just feels too hard? The discrepancy between them is just very big.


I simply banned metamagic rods, it narrows the gulf between martials and casters significantly, though admitedly the current metamagic feats do not quite work out by themselves. I feel like most metamagic feats at it's base should be an option rather than a feat. That in itself will make spontaneous casters more competitive.

Feats for 5,000 gold is not something I want to do in my campaigns, especially for feats with prerequisite feats. I'd consider 12,000-18,000 gold to be more in line with a basic feat's cost.


I'll admit that metamagic rods can be very powerful. I think the power (and value) comes primarily from being able to effectively cast higher level spells out of lower level slots rather than from being able to access more metamagic feats though. If this became a problem I'd probably consider house ruling the rods before banning them (though of course banning is just another house rule and no less valid)

A "harsh" house rule would be to make the caster pay the normal spell slot cost for the metamagicked spell - a Fireball Empowered via rod would cost a 5th level slot

A "mellow" house rule might be to have the rods work as they currently do but not allow the caster to produce any spell which would normally be of a higher level than he or she can cast - a Fireball Empowered via rod would only cost a 3rd level slot, but you'd need to be able to cast 5th level spells to use the rod this way

I guess this is getting way off the topic of how rods are priced though.

Liberty's Edge

Matthew Downie wrote:
A lot of items are better than feats. A Cloak of Resistance +2 gives you the equivalent of 3 feats (Iron Will, etc) for 4000gp.

And these items are of equal value to every class in the game, so there is no issue of balance.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

ciretose wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
A lot of items are better than feats. A Cloak of Resistance +2 gives you the equivalent of 3 feats (Iron Will, etc) for 4000gp.
And these items are of equal value to every class in the game, so there is no issue of balance.

That clearly isn't true for all items which replicate a feat:

Keen and Improved Critical have the same effect.
Dervish Dance and Agile have similar effects.


Magical full plate is much more useful to the typical Fighter than the typical Wizard, but I wouldn't consider that a balance issue. Even the cloak of resistance would be more useful to somebody trying to shore up a weak save than somebody who has all high saves (maybe a Monk/Paladin). It can be very bad if an Alchemist with reduced Wisdom from his mutagen fails a Will save.

The idea that metamagic rods are somehow "unfair" to the minority of classes which don't cast spells (and more specifically to characters who take only those classes rather than multiclassing) is unappealing to me. It seems kind of like saying, "Fighters suck, so Sorcerers shouldn't be able to have metamagic rods" (though maybe more like, "martials suck, punish casters"). An argument more like "Metamagic rods make it too easy for PCs to defeat monsters in their expected CR range" might make more sense to me.


goldomark wrote:
From the price of a Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone and Gloves of Arrows Snatching, you can deduce that feats are worth 5,000 gp if they were magical items with space limitation.

I disagree.

Feats are like spells... or more to the point should be like spells. A feat with requirements (other feats, BAB, caster level, race, etc) is more powerful and worth more than basic feats.

An "active" feat (one that lets you do something different, anything from Step Up to Empower Spell) is going to be worth more.

Quote:
So how is the value of Metamagic Rods calculated? I'm lost here.

They use a formula which is at least somewhat balanced. Note that +2 or +3 skill-boosting items don't always follow this formula you seem to have derived.


There is no hard rule on pricing an item that grants a feat. It is up to your GM to price it if he allows it at all.

Sovereign Court

Not all feats are equally valuable. I think that's obvious to everyone; Endurance just isn't in the same league as Power Attack.


Even bobo feats like Endurance can be important as prereqs for other feats or prestige classes.


It's not just the price of the feat. Meta rods mean you don't have to use a higher level slot, and indeed...allow you to use the metamagic version of a spell even if you normally could not POSSIBLY use the feat due to not having the higher level slot. Spell levels increase exponentially in value, and thus the higher level rods which work on higher level spells and spare still higher (even non-existent, like 11th level) spell levels from being used increase exponentially in price.


lantzkev wrote:

and also only go to lvl 1-3.

Quote:

Metamagic Rods: Rods in this special category hold the power to grant metamagic feats to a wielder's spells.

Rods

Metamagic, merciful, minor 1,500 gp
Metamagic (+1 spell level), minor 3,000 gp
Metamagic, merciful, normal 5,500 gp
Metamagic (+2 spell level), minor 9,000 gp
Metamagic (+1 spell level), normal 11,000 gp
Metamagic, merciful, greater 12,250 gp
Metamagic (+3 spell level), minor 14,000 gp
Metamagic (+1 spell level), greater 24,500 gp
Metamagic (+2 spell level), normal 32,500 gp
Metamagic, quicken, minor 35,000 gp
Metamagic (+3 spell level), normal 54,000 gp
Metamagic (+2 spell level), greater 73,000 gp

Metamagic, quicken, normal 75,500 gp

Metamagic (+3 spell level), greater 121,500 gp
Metamagic, quicken, greater 170,000 gp

Clearly the OP hasn't read up on rod pricing in the Ultimate Equipment.

I have, champ. What I want to know is the formula to get from 5,000 gp to those prices.


Devilkiller wrote:
goldomark - As lantzkev points out, there's a formula for pricing metamagic rods.

Yes, I know. What is that formula?

Sovereign Court

Devilkiller wrote:
Even bobo feats like Endurance can be important as prereqs for other feats or prestige classes.

But does that make them equally valuable? Just because there's a corner case where Endurance matters doesn't mean it's just as valuable as a must-have feat for some of the most popular builds.

There's only a handful of feats explicitly granted or precisely duplicated by magic items, and most of them are marginal. There's not a great deal of uniformity in the pricing either.

goldomark wrote:
I have, champ. What I want to know is the formula to get from 5,000 gp to those prices.

There's no actual rule there. There's no systematic way to get there; all we have is a few incidental magic items granting rarely-taken feats. The exception is Keen, which also follows a different cost structure.


goldomark - Metamagic rods do more than just grant access to a feat, so there's no reason to assume that they should be priced based on magic items which grant access to a feat. Maybe it would help if you told us what you're trying to price out. Is there some metamagic feat which isn't represented by the rods in UE? If so a rod for it would likely be priced like rods of other metamagic feats with the same increase in spell level. For instance, if there was a metamagic feat called Bamboozling Spell which increases the spell level by +2 and you wanted a lesser rod of bamboozling that should probably cost 9,000gp like a lesser rod of empower, which is also +2 spell levels (all subject to DM discretion of course)

Ascalaphus - Perhaps the term "bobo" is not as commonly known as I thought, but it implies something cheap and frequently disdained such as sneakers without a brand name (aka "bobos"). I agree that the feats available via magic items tend to be ones which don't seem like they'd have a major impact on game balance. I'm guessing that's intentional.

Liberty's Edge

John Spalding wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
A lot of items are better than feats. A Cloak of Resistance +2 gives you the equivalent of 3 feats (Iron Will, etc) for 4000gp.
And these items are of equal value to every class in the game, so there is no issue of balance.

That clearly isn't true for all items which replicate a feat:

Keen and Improved Critical have the same effect.
Dervish Dance and Agile have similar effects.

They have the same effect. Wizards, sorcerers and Witches can use weapons. That they may or may not choose to is a separate issue. All other caster classes likely do have regular use for weapons.

Metamagic rods are of no use to non-spellcasters.

That is a huge difference.

Liberty's Edge

ciretose wrote:
John Spalding wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
A lot of items are better than feats. A Cloak of Resistance +2 gives you the equivalent of 3 feats (Iron Will, etc) for 4000gp.
And these items are of equal value to every class in the game, so there is no issue of balance.

That clearly isn't true for all items which replicate a feat:

Keen and Improved Critical have the same effect.
Dervish Dance and Agile have similar effects.

They have the same effect. Wizards, sorcerers and Witches can use weapons. That they may or may not choose to is a separate issue. All other caster classes likely do have regular use for weapons.

Metamagic rods are of no use to non-spellcasters.

That is a huge difference.

It's arguable that a magic axe is of no practical use to a pure arcane caster. Really.


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I'm not a fan of metamagic rods. The rods are simply way better than their respective feats. The consequence of this is that most metamagic feats appear to be balanced around their effect when used as part of a rod, and are pretty much overpriced across the board when taken as feats.


ciretose wrote:

They have the same effect. Wizards, sorcerers and Witches can use weapons. That they may or may not choose to is a separate issue. All other caster classes likely do have regular use for weapons.

Metamagic rods are of no use to non-spellcasters.

That is a huge difference.

I don't see the difference, yet alone see it as huge.

I've had non-casters buy metamagic rods in organized campaigns and then hand them (along with pearls of power) over to casters that join the group.

Likewise I've seen casters in similar situations handing out items that they couldn't use (well) to those that could use them (much better).

As to the original claim: metamagic rods make the feats obsolete.

This has merit in places, but not in others.

A similar argument would be that spell storing items make casters obsolete.

The reality is that the economics and other limitations of the metamagic rods do serve to balance things out.

-James


Devilkiller wrote:
goldomark - Metamagic rods do more than just grant access to a feat, so there's no reason to assume that they should be priced based on magic items which grant access to a feat.

But they are.

Take the minor merciful rod it is worth 1,500 gp. Reverse engineer the price of a rod by multiplying it by 1.66 (when determining the price of item, once you have a price if the item has charges per day you need to divide the price by 5 divided by the number of charges per day, here it is 3 charges per day, so 5 divided by 3 = 1.66) and you roughly get 2,500 gp, half of 5,000 gp. Half a feat.

Take a +1 level minor rod. They cost 3,000 gp. Multiply it by 1.66 and you roughly get 5,000 gp. The price of a feat.

What I want to know is how they arrived at the conclusion that a +0 level minor rod is worth half a feat, while a +1 level minor rod is worth a feat and that a +4 levels greater rod is worth 56 feats. What is the logic or the math behind this priceing?

Quote:
Maybe it would help if you told us what you're trying to price out.

Metamagic components. Basically a consummable that acts as a metamagic feat for one spell when used during the casting. Clearly which metamagic feat is used has a impact on pricing and so does the level of the spells it can affect.

Sovereign Court

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A +4 Greater Rod is worth so much because it lets you do metamagic that should be "impossible". The logic behind the pricing isn't "how many feats does this equal", but "at what level should this be affordable".

Feats/level is a linear progression. WBL isn't. Trying to express the value of a feat in money isn't going to yield sensible results.


Ascalaphus wrote:
A +4 Greater Rod is worth so much because it lets you do metamagic that should be "impossible".

Yes, I understand.

Quote:

The logic behind the pricing isn't "how many feats does this equal", but "at what level should this be affordable".

Feats/level is a linear progression. WBL isn't. Trying to express the value of a feat in money isn't going to yield sensible results.

Yet the designers didn't pull numbers out of their hat. They have a rational for a +0 level minor = half a feat, that +1 level minor rof = a feat or that +4 levels greater rod = 56 feats.


goldomark... they just eyeballed a price. There is no formula.

Liberty's Edge

EldonG wrote:
ciretose wrote:
John Spalding wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
A lot of items are better than feats. A Cloak of Resistance +2 gives you the equivalent of 3 feats (Iron Will, etc) for 4000gp.
And these items are of equal value to every class in the game, so there is no issue of balance.

That clearly isn't true for all items which replicate a feat:

Keen and Improved Critical have the same effect.
Dervish Dance and Agile have similar effects.

They have the same effect. Wizards, sorcerers and Witches can use weapons. That they may or may not choose to is a separate issue. All other caster classes likely do have regular use for weapons.

Metamagic rods are of no use to non-spellcasters.

That is a huge difference.

It's arguable that a magic axe is of no practical use to a pure arcane caster. Really.

So you won't be using a weapon with your Bard then?

But where you are actually coming from, there are only 3 pure arcane caster classes. All of them can use weapons, and several of which have practical builds which would use weapons, not to mention prestige classes.

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:


I've had non-casters buy metamagic rods in organized campaigns and then hand them (along with pearls of power) over to casters that join the group.

-James

Carrying around something you can't use so you can give it to someone who can is being a pack mule.

I really can't believe you included this as a point to help a defense of metamagic rods.

I have no issue with metamagic feats. Even really powerful ones like persistent. They require sacrifice and choice.

Rods don't have nearly the same cost in planning, particularly for the price. If they actually duplicated the feat, as in allowed you to prep spells with the ability as you would with the feat I would be fine with them. The problem is you remove the preparation, 3 times a day.

They never should have been added, from their genesis.


ciretose wrote:
I really can't believe you included this as a point to help a defense of metamagic rods.

It seemed comparable to a claim that a 5STR bard would equally benefit from a magical great axe...

-James

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
goldomark wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
A +4 Greater Rod is worth so much because it lets you do metamagic that should be "impossible".

Yes, I understand.

Quote:

The logic behind the pricing isn't "how many feats does this equal", but "at what level should this be affordable".

Feats/level is a linear progression. WBL isn't. Trying to express the value of a feat in money isn't going to yield sensible results.

Yet the designers didn't pull numbers out of their hat. They have a rational for a +0 level minor = half a feat, that +1 level minor rof = a feat or that +4 levels greater rod = 56 feats.

The dev have have give a value to metamagic rods, but there is no sign that that is based on the value of a feat, as metamagic feats are very different from what the rods do.

A item giving the feat would allow you to memorize or spontaneously cast an unlimited number of spells as if you had the feat, opaying all the costs of using the feat and with all the limitation of using the feat.

You are trying to discern a pattern with the assumption that the price of the rods is based on the price of a feat, but there is no proof that that assumption has any validity.


Diego Rossi wrote:
goldomark wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
A +4 Greater Rod is worth so much because it lets you do metamagic that should be "impossible".

Yes, I understand.

Quote:

The logic behind the pricing isn't "how many feats does this equal", but "at what level should this be affordable".

Feats/level is a linear progression. WBL isn't. Trying to express the value of a feat in money isn't going to yield sensible results.

Yet the designers didn't pull numbers out of their hat. They have a rational for a +0 level minor = half a feat, that +1 level minor rof = a feat or that +4 levels greater rod = 56 feats.

The dev have have give a value to metamagic rods, but there is no sign that that is based on the value of a feat, as metamagic feats are very different from what the rods do.

A item giving the feat would allow you to memorize or spontaneously cast an unlimited number of spells as if you had the feat, opaying all the costs of using the feat and with all the limitation of using the feat.

You are trying to discern a pattern with the assumption that the price of the rods is based on the price of a feat, but there is no proof that that assumption has any validity.

Yet I demonstratd the connection between the worth of a feat and those of the minor rods. First the price of a feat, how is it 5k gp?

Gloves of arrow snatching do what that feat does, but only twice a day. How did they get a price of 4k for it? Well snatch arrow is a feat that needs deflect arrow, another feat. That is a total value of 10k gp for two feats, right? But you can only use it twice a day, so you adjust the price by dividing it by 5 divided by 2 (the number of uses per day) = 2.5. Divide 10k by 2.5 and you get 4k, the price of gloves of arrow snatching. So we know that a feat is worth 5k. Another example is a dark blue ioun stone that gives the Alertness feat. Slotless items are worth double the price of items that take space (liek gloves). So a dark blue ioun stone is worth 10k gp (5k for the feat multiplied by 2).

Take a minor merciless rod, it is worth 1,5k gp. Take that price and multiply it by 5 divided by 3 (1.66) and you 2,5k, half the price of a feat. For a +1 minor feat (worth 3k gp) multiply that by 1.66, you get 5k, the price of a feat. The number (5k) is not a coicindence.

Designers do not pull out magic item prices out of their hat. They use formulas. I figured that for minor rods they take the spell slot level increase the metamagic feat gives (Empower +2 level), add 1 and multiply that by 5k and then divide it by 1.66 to get the price of the minor rods (9k for minor empower rods). For a minor merciful rod it is 0.5 multiplied by 5k divided by 1.66. Makes sense since merciful doesn't increase spell level when it is applied to a spell.

This breaks down at +3 level minor rods though. But both +3 level and +4 level minor rods multiply 5k by numberX.6. I wanna figure out how they came to numberX and the .6.

Yeah, I got issues.


Matthew Downie wrote:
A lot of items are better than feats. A Cloak of Resistance +2 gives you the equivalent of 3 feats (Iron Will, etc) for 4000gp.

But can be stolen, lost, destroyed, suppressed, negated, etc. Feats can't.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
goldomark wrote:

Designers do not pull out magic item prices out of their hat. They use formulas. I figured that for minor rods they take the spell slot level increase the metamagic feat gives (Empower +2 level), add 1 and multiply that by 5k and then divide it by 1.66 to get the price of the minor rods (9k for minor empower rods). For a minor merciful rod it is 0.5 multiplied by 5k divided by 1.66. Makes sense since merciful doesn't increase spell level when it is applied to a spell.

This breaks down at +3 level minor rods though. But both +3 level and +4 level minor rods multiply 5k by numberX.6. I wanna figure out how they came to numberX and the .6.

Yeah, I got issues.

Yeah, you have issues. The biggest one is that you're making big assumptions about how they derived the prices for metamagic rods. I don't expect that they had a standard formula going in that they expected to apply to all meta magic feats. Instead, I suspect they followed the standard advice - eyeball it and compare to other things that are roughly as useful.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I have traced a line between dot 1 and 2, so that is clearly the way they are connected ...
No, demonstrations don't go that way, especially when your demonstration has continue saying that dot 4 (metamagic rods with powers that increase the spell cost by 4 levels) cost as 56 feats.
You are trying to reconstruct a logic that probably isn't even there as metamagic rods don't mimic feats.

Put another way, you are taking green, spheric and getting peas. But it can be as easily a beach ball.


Bill Dunn wrote:
goldomark wrote:

Designers do not pull out magic item prices out of their hat. They use formulas. I figured that for minor rods they take the spell slot level increase the metamagic feat gives (Empower +2 level), add 1 and multiply that by 5k and then divide it by 1.66 to get the price of the minor rods (9k for minor empower rods). For a minor merciful rod it is 0.5 multiplied by 5k divided by 1.66. Makes sense since merciful doesn't increase spell level when it is applied to a spell.

This breaks down at +3 level minor rods though. But both +3 level and +4 level minor rods multiply 5k by numberX.6. I wanna figure out how they came to numberX and the .6.

Yeah, I got issues.

Yeah, you have issues. The biggest one is that you're making big assumptions about how they derived the prices for metamagic rods. I don't expect that they had a standard formula going in that they expected to apply to all meta magic feats. Instead, I suspect they followed the standard advice - eyeball it and compare to other things that are roughly as useful.

I make this huge assumption cause all magical items use a formula to determine their pricing. There might be corrections after the formula is used, but yeah, all item prices come from a formula, not from playing spin the donkey.

Anyway, I won't get any constructive advice here. Enjoy debating if rods are bad or not.

Sczarni

it's clear the value of the feat to the game is considered, there's no hard and cast rule about the price it's something they do off the cuff.

I've also shown you where feats are purchasable with items, so are you upset about ioun stones granting alertness, weapon proficiency, and endurance?

10k seems a good starting point if it's unslotted feat.


james maissen wrote:
ciretose wrote:

They have the same effect. Wizards, sorcerers and Witches can use weapons. That they may or may not choose to is a separate issue. All other caster classes likely do have regular use for weapons.

Metamagic rods are of no use to non-spellcasters.

That is a huge difference.

I don't see the difference, yet alone see it as huge.

I've had non-casters buy metamagic rods in organized campaigns and then hand them (along with pearls of power) over to casters that join the group.

Likewise I've seen casters in similar situations handing out items that they couldn't use (well) to those that could use them (much better).

As to the original claim: metamagic rods make the feats obsolete.

This has merit in places, but not in others.

A similar argument would be that spell storing items make casters obsolete.

The reality is that the economics and other limitations of the metamagic rods do serve to balance things out.

-James

No I'm sorry but the economics don't balance it out - why? Firstly on principle I think its wrong to be able to buy an item which I consider over powered. Secondly, because there is little point for a Wizard to take meta-magic feats if they have rods easily available whereas other classes will still have to invest in feats to further develop their power. As I see the game I just cannot accept these points.

Goldomark I'm sorry you didn't get the answers you wanted - it was not my intention to divert the thread but it seems there is a real divergence of opinion on these particular magic items.

Scarab Sages

goldomark wrote:


Quote:
Maybe it would help if you told us what you're trying to price out.
Metamagic components. Basically a consummable that acts as a metamagic feat for one spell when used during the casting. Clearly which metamagic feat is used has a impact on pricing and so does the level of the spells it can affect.

You are in luck, then. Such an item exists in the Rival Guide.

Metamagic Gem


lantzkev wrote:

it's clear the value of the feat to the game is considered, there's no hard and cast rule about the price it's something they do off the cuff.

I've also shown you where feats are purchasable with items, so are you upset about ioun stones granting alertness, weapon proficiency, and endurance?

10k seems a good starting point if it's unslotted feat.

... I already mentioned ioun stones in the OP.


Ferious Thune wrote:
goldomark wrote:


Quote:
Maybe it would help if you told us what you're trying to price out.
Metamagic components. Basically a consummable that acts as a metamagic feat for one spell when used during the casting. Clearly which metamagic feat is used has a impact on pricing and so does the level of the spells it can affect.

You are in luck, then. Such an item exists in the Rival Guide.

Metamagic Gem

Holy #@$%!

Thanks! This is awesome!

...

...

...

Ok, what is the fomula behind those... ;-)

Sczarni

We've told you the value is determined off the cuff by their perceived value.

There's no formula to pick just "go with what's been done and gauge price based off similar powered items" as the book says.


Was beating my head around looking at various places where it's been tried, and I think I've found a working formula.

(MaxSpellLevel/9]^2) × 5000/(5/UsesPerDay) × (LevelGain × 2 - 1) × (49/6)

Let's try it out.

Minor rod, three times a day, that adds 0 level:

(3/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (1×2 -1) × (49/6)
1/9 × 3000 × [0 replaced by 0.5] × (49/6)
1,361 (rounded up to 1,500)

Minor rod, three times a day, that adds 1 level:

(3/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (1×2 -1) × (49/6)
1/9 × 3000 × 1 × (49/6)
2,722 (rounded up to 3,000)

Minor rod, three times a day, that adds 2 levels:

(3/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (2×2 -1) × (49/6)
1/9 × 3000 × 3 × (49/6)
8,166 (rounded up to 9,000)

Minor rod, three times a day, that adds 3 levels:

(3/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (3×2 -1) × (49/6)
1/9 × 3000 × 5 × (49/6)
13,611 (rounded up to 14,000)

Minor rod, three times a day, that adds 4 levels:
(3/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (4×2 -1) × (49/6)
1/9 × 3000 × 7 × (49/6)
19,055 (way off)

Normal rod, three times a day, that adds 0 level:

(6/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (1×2 -1) × (49/6)
4/9 × 3000 × [0 replaced by 0.5] × (49/6)
5,444.44 (rounded up to 5,500)

Normal rod, three times a day, that adds 1 level:

(6/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (1×2 -1) × (49/6)
4/9 × 3000 × 1 × (49/6)
10,888.89 (rounded up to 11,000)

Normal rod, three times a day, that adds 2 levels:

(6/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (2×2 -1) × (49/6)
4/9 × 3000 × 3 × (49/6)
32,666.67 (rounded down to 32,500)

Normal rod, three times a day, that adds 3 levels:

(6/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (3×2 -1) × (49/6)
4/9 × 3000 × 5 × (49/6)
54,444.44 (rounded down to 54,000)

Normal rod, three times a day, that adds 4 levels:
(6/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (4×2 -1) × (49/6)
4/9 × 3000 × 7 × (49/6)
76,222 (reduced to 75,500)

Greater rod, three times a day, that adds 0 level:

(9/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (1×2 -1) × (49/6)
1 × 3000 × [0 replaced by 0.5] × (49/6)
12,250 (EXACT!)

Greater rod, three times a day, that adds 1 level:

(9/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (1×2 -1) × (49/6)
1 × 3000 × 1 × (49/6)
24,500 (EXACT!)

Greater rod, three times a day, that adds 2 levels:

(9/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (2×2 -1) × (49/6)
1 × 3000 × 3 × (49/6)
73,500 (rounded down to 73,000)

Greater rod, three times a day, that adds 3 levels:

(9/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (3×2 -1) × (49/6)
1 × 3000 × 5 × (49/6)
122,500 (reduced to 121,500)

Greater rod, three times a day, that adds 4 levels:
(9/9)^2 × 5000/(5/3) × (4×2 -1) × (49/6)
1 × 3000 × 7 × (49/6)
171,500 (reduced to 170,000 even)

Now, I have no idea at all where that (49/6) factor comes from in the pricing (thanks to xaeyruudh on the Candlekeep forums for pointing it out this February), but given that weird bit, and acknowledging a fudge factor for round-ish numbers, the formula works pretty closely for everything except the lesser quicken rod. Just assume that was a playtest adjustment, and you have a formula.


It looks like once the question was a little better defined Ferious Thune was able to come up with a very appropriate answer the OP's underlying problem. Those gems look pretty cool, and the prices certainly seem fair enough (maybe even generous). I'd expect that a big argument about metamagic gems might be whether you can bypass the crafting requirement of having the appropriate metamagic feat by adding +5 to the DC of crafting the item. If so then Craft Wondrous Items potentially becomes a fairly valid substitute for most metamagic feats. Per the item crafting rules I'd think this would work. It seems like a very powerful option.

ciretose - As I mentioned, most of the core and base classes have spellcasting ability and therefore can use metamagic rods. Meanwhile there are other magic items which work only for characters who possess the abilities of a specific class (armor training, barbarian rage, smite evil, etc). I can understand why you might feel metamagic rods are overpowered, but I don't think the fact they can't be used by some classes should really have a lot to do with it.

Scarab Sages

goldomark wrote:

Holy #@$%!

Thanks! This is awesome!

...

...

...

Ok, what is the fomula behind those... ;-)

I don't know where they got the base price from, but they spell out the formula in the description. Basically 1,000gp for a +1 spell level metamagic feat, double it for each additional +1. Again, no idea where they got the 1,000gp base from, but I'm not too familiar with magic item pricing rules.

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