Agile or Keen?


Advice


So I know I will acquire an Amulet of Mighty Fists at some point in our Rise of the Runelords Campaign. However I'm unsure(once I acquire the cost) whether I want to get it enchanted with Agile or Keen.

Unarmed Monk 19-20crit x2
Snake Style/Sidewind/Fang
Agile Maneuvers
Weapon Finesse

Dex: 18
Wis: 18
Str: 12
Con: 12
Int: 10
Cha: 5

I only have a +1 to damage per weapon hit from Str right now. Kind of weak I know.
I'll be in Snake Style all the time in every encounter. One of the awesome features of it is not only essentially returning AoO, but making secondary ones AND if a critical is reached I get a Sense Motive bonus to confirming it(crazy high).

In the *long run*, what would be better damage-wise(DPR even)? Keen or Agile? Can they both be applied to the amulet?


Keen can only be applied to slashing or piercing weapons.

Unarmed is neither.
That reduces your choice to Agile. :P


Skull wrote:
Keen can only be applied to slashing or piercing weapons.

Snake style makes it piercing actually.


Snake Style allows UAS to do piercing. No problem, there.

I have a question, though. How is your crit range already 19-20? Are you already factoring Keen into your attack with the stats you list?

Grand Lodge

I face the same problem with my dual Wakazashi wielding Ninja. Going with Agile first is going to give you better DPR since it will also double with the Crit you normally get. Normally you could add Keen on top of the Agile later but here is the problem with that. Keen can only be added to piercing or slashing weapons. Unarmed Strike is bludgeoning. You can change this with certain stances but you only have this property when you are in that stance. As such, your DM may rule you can't add the property at all or you can add it but it only works when you are actually dealing slashing or piercing damage with your unarmed strike.


I'd go with agile myself. Static damage bogs the game down less, and it will allow you to focus more on your other stats. However if you really like critting(and you likely will confirm, with a high sense motive) you might get more out of keen. If only for enjoying criticals.


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Just get the feat to improve your critical range later.
Agile FTW


trollbill wrote:
I face the same problem with my dual Wakazashi wielding Ninja. Going with Agile first is going to give you better DPR since it will also double with the Crit you normally get. Normally you could add Keen on top of the Agile later but here is the problem with that. Keen can only be added to piercing or slashing weapons. Unarmed Strike is bludgeoning. You can change this with certain stances but you only have this property when you are in that stance. As such, your DM may rule you can't add the property at all or you can add it but it only works when you are actually dealing slashing or piercing damage with your unarmed strike.

Well good to know I can double them up... but it depends on DM discretion on whether the Keen property would even apply. I can deal with that.

MacGurcules wrote:
I have a question, though. How is your crit range already 19-20? Are you already factoring Keen into your attack with the stats you list?

Improved Critical(improved unarmed strike).

Liberty's Edge

So, the choice is between adding +3 damage to every attack and getting a crit every 10 attacks ?

Agile it is.


MrSin wrote:
I'd go with agile myself. Static damage bogs the game down less, and it will allow you to focus more on your other stats. However if you really like critting(and you likely will confirm, with a high sense motive) you might get more out of keen. If only for enjoying criticals.

If choosing between the two then, I'll certainly get Agile first based off of all the advice here. If I can get both, I'll definitely do that too! Agile first regardless though... and hopefully I'll have the funds.

Thank you everyone!

Liberty's Edge

Kazumetsa wrote:
MacGurcules wrote:
I have a question, though. How is your crit range already 19-20? Are you already factoring Keen into your attack with the stats you list?
Improved Critical(improved unarmed strike).

Improved Critical and Keen do not stack.

Liberty's Edge

Kazumetsa wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I face the same problem with my dual Wakazashi wielding Ninja. Going with Agile first is going to give you better DPR since it will also double with the Crit you normally get. Normally you could add Keen on top of the Agile later but here is the problem with that. Keen can only be added to piercing or slashing weapons. Unarmed Strike is bludgeoning. You can change this with certain stances but you only have this property when you are in that stance. As such, your DM may rule you can't add the property at all or you can add it but it only works when you are actually dealing slashing or piercing damage with your unarmed strike.

Well good to know I can double them up... but it depends on DM discretion on whether the Keen property would even apply. I can deal with that.

MacGurcules wrote:
I have a question, though. How is your crit range already 19-20? Are you already factoring Keen into your attack with the stats you list?
Improved Critical(improved unarmed strike).

Keen and improved crit don't stack.

Silver Crusade

Keen and Improved Critical dont stack anyway.


MrSin wrote:
Skull wrote:
Keen can only be applied to slashing or piercing weapons.
Snake style makes it piercing actually.

Snake style makes the unarmed attack deal piercing damage. It does not alter your "weapon" into a piercing weapon. Subtle but meaningful difference.

That would be a specific DM call as to whether your AoMF could be enchanted with Keen or not in this case, but I see it like this:

I would allow it to be enchanted with Keen, but would only allow that enchantment to function while Snake Style is being used. For instance, if he's a MoMF Monk and switches OUT of Snake Style, his bonus from Keen would be "inactive" until he switches back into it.

Obviously in this Monk's case, he says he will use Snake 100% of the time, so I'd have no issue with it. I can see some very strict DM interpretations (more strict than me, I never thought I'd say those words...)disallowing it, however.

Grand Lodge

Just to throw some numbers out there; if you go with Agile, the average damage increase of your monk at 6th level, assuming you hit on an 11 or better is +1.5 to each attack. If we go with Keen it is less than +0.55 to each attack. If you had both it would be around +2.1 assuming near 100% chance of confirming with your special stance. Halve those numbers otherwise.


You can't add on keen and double your threat range again now that you have the Improved Critical (unarmed strike) feat.

Improved Critical - Notice it says, "This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon."

Keen - Notice it says, "This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat)."

So your ONLY choice at this point is to add the Agile property to your weapon.


Oh boogers!!

Well that certainly settles that! Bwahahaha.

Agile it is! Thank you all. I truly appreciate the advice.


Improved critical and keen don't stack.

edit:Wow I've never been so totally ninja'd in my life before....


Is it safe to assume there is nothing to improve the critical range aside from those two unstackable options?

Grand Lodge

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havoc xiii wrote:

edit:Wow I've never been so totally ninja'd in my life before....

And here you thought it was a monk thread.


Nothing comes to mind, though its not to much of a houserule to allow them to stack. I think one of the devs said he wanted them to stack even, but was outvoted.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Skull wrote:
Keen can only be applied to slashing or piercing weapons.
Snake style makes it piercing actually.

Snake style makes the unarmed attack deal piercing damage. It does not alter your "weapon" into a piercing weapon. Subtle but meaningful difference.

That would be a specific DM call as to whether your AoMF could be enchanted with Keen or not in this case, but I see it like this:

I would allow it to be enchanted with Keen, but would only allow that enchantment to function while Snake Style is being used. For instance, if he's a MoMF Monk and switches OUT of Snake Style, his bonus from Keen would be "inactive" until he switches back into it.

Obviously in this Monk's case, he says he will use Snake 100% of the time, so I'd have no issue with it. I can see some very strict DM interpretations (more strict than me, I never thought I'd say those words...)disallowing it, however.

i would rule the same way, since they'd be enchanting the amulet, not his fists.

what i mean by that is the amulet can get enchanted with anything (it would be weird that with two medallions of the same design, only one would be allowed to get keen on it and the other wouldn't simply because a dragon was holding the first one when it was getting made), but the enchant wouldn't have any effect until the player met the prereqs to use the effect--in this case piercing/slashing damage with unarmed strikes.

sort of like duelist class abilities not being available to use unless you're using a 1h piercing weapon (or an aldori dueling sword with the proper feat)--its not as if your character erases the abilities form teh sheet, he just can't use them without the proper weapon.


AndIMustMask wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Skull wrote:
Keen can only be applied to slashing or piercing weapons.
Snake style makes it piercing actually.

Snake style makes the unarmed attack deal piercing damage. It does not alter your "weapon" into a piercing weapon. Subtle but meaningful difference.

That would be a specific DM call as to whether your AoMF could be enchanted with Keen or not in this case, but I see it like this:

I would allow it to be enchanted with Keen, but would only allow that enchantment to function while Snake Style is being used. For instance, if he's a MoMF Monk and switches OUT of Snake Style, his bonus from Keen would be "inactive" until he switches back into it.

Obviously in this Monk's case, he says he will use Snake 100% of the time, so I'd have no issue with it. I can see some very strict DM interpretations (more strict than me, I never thought I'd say those words...)disallowing it, however.

i would rule the same way, since they'd be enchanting the amulet, not his fists.

what i mean by that is the amulet can get enchanted with anything (it would be weird that with two medallions of the same design, only one would be allowed to get keen on it and the other wouldn't simply because a dragon was holding the first one when it was getting made, and the second one was unfortunate enough to be held by a mere human), but the enchant wouldn't have any effect until the player met the prereqs to use the effect--in this case piercing/slashing damage with unarmed strikes.

sort of like duelist class abilities not being available to use unless you're using a 1h piercing weapon (or an aldori dueling sword with the proper feat)--its not as if your character erases the abilities form teh sheet, he just can't use them without the proper weapon.

Here's the only problem with that. The prerequisite for Keen is not based on the actual damage, but the damage type of weapon.

For instance, you CAN pierce with a longsword, but it's weapon damage type is Slashing. You CAN slash with an arrow, but it's weapon damage type is Piercing.

Neither of these weapons would meet the prerequisite for an Enchantment that requires a Bludgeoning weapon, even though you could effectively bash someone in the face with your sword pommel.

That's not how I personally would rule, I would rule as my post above, but I can see some wiggle room for a stricter DM than I.


Kazumetsa wrote:
Is it safe to assume there is nothing to improve the critical range aside from those two unstackable options?

If you are going by RAW, then you are SOL. I'd just worry about adding more static damage (i.e. Agile if you are using your Dex bonus) and upping your attack bonus. Things like Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization. Your DPR goes up the more you hit as has been explained by the guys on these forums so adding to your attack bonus is really good for you and the static damage gets doubled (in most cases) on crits.

I'd think about is a way to get BIGGER by having someone use a wand of enlarge, get an item that does it for you, or a friend who can put the spell on you. This would up your damage dice of your fists.

The other thing I'd also think about is trying to get more attacks per round via spells like haste, the feats like combat reflexes/things that add more ki so you can flurry more often, and styles that perhaps add more of a chance to grant you AoOs.


Oh Sorry, I forgot Snake style lets it become piercing.
Only remembered Boar style doing that.

Oops. :P


ub3r_n3rd wrote:
Kazumetsa wrote:
Is it safe to assume there is nothing to improve the critical range aside from those two unstackable options?

If you are going by RAW, then you are SOL. I'd just worry about adding more static damage (i.e. Agile if you are using your Dex bonus) and upping your attack bonus. Things like Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization. Your DPR goes up the more you hit as has been explained by the guys on these forums so adding to your attack bonus is really good for you and the static damage gets doubled (in most cases) on crits.

I'd think about is a way to get BIGGER by having someone use a wand of enlarge, get an item that does it for you, or a friend who can put the spell on you. This would up your damage dice of your fists.

The other thing I'd also think about is trying to get more attacks per round via spells like haste, the feats like combat reflexes/things that add more ki so you can flurry more often, and styles that perhaps add more of a chance to grant you AoOs.

RAW it is. Alrighty then! I certainly will.

Hopefully I'll find the Juggernaut Pauldron and Boots of Speed one day... but until then I'll likely have my Wizard friend cast it on me if he's willing and if I'm really looking to do that extra damage. Whenever he gets that anyways.

Will do. Chances are the beginning of a fight I'll likely get my Ki Leech going(level 10)... that way every crit I get or kill I can get 1 Ki energy back. Already covered on the combat reflexes and snake style ;D I plan on tripping like crazy and pummeling afterwards.


Barry Armstrong wrote:

Here's the only problem with that. The prerequisite for Keen is not based on the actual damage, but the damage type of weapon.

For instance, you CAN pierce with a longsword, but it's weapon damage type is Slashing. You CAN slash with an arrow, but it's weapon damage type is Piercing.

Neither of these weapons would meet the prerequisite for an Enchantment that requires a Bludgeoning weapon, even though you could effectively bash someone in the face with your sword pommel.

That's not how I personally would rule, I would rule as my post above, but I can see some wiggle room for a stricter DM than I.

except that's not the case at all--as far as i know you CAN'T use a longsword as a piercing or bludgeoning damage within the rules--closest i can think of is you'd be using it as an improvised weapon, which wouldn't be treated as a longsword for things like weapon focus and such, since it's an improvised weapon while you're using it that way (it just happens to be longsword-shaped).

snake style specifically adds piercing as a damage type for the unarmed strike weapon (which keen would apply to when used that way). The dwarven maulaxe can be used as an example of such a weapon, methinks.

@skull: i believe mantis style lets you add piercing as well, iirc.

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