It’s Time to Retire “Boob Plate” Armor. Because It Would Kill You.


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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It’s Time to Retire “Boob Plate” Armor. Because It Would Kill You.

Interesting article.

Goblin Squad Member

That was really interesting! Thank you!

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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Yes, please. No more boob plate!

Goblin Squad Member

Allow me to rebut.

Swimming in the Moat: In Defense of the Chainmail Bikini

Goblin Squad Member

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Interesting articles. Both. They do need more example pics though. =P

Goblin Squad Member

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I support boob plate armor and chainmail bikinis in every way.


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Unless the game can accurately simulate the functionality of garments, we'll continue to see "tools" designed with visual aesthetic as foremost priority.

What I mean is that the medium is purely non-physical and there aren't any real reasons to design armors as anything but costume. You could give the same stats to a sandwich board as full plate. Players have no in-game motivation to care about the real-world efficacy of their armor.

Sex is, for now, a meta-game concern.

Alas and hurrah...

Goblin Squad Member

For the record, I am not suggesting that "boob plate" or "bikini chainmails" should not be an option. I just found the article interesting, and wanted to bring it to the community's attention.

Goblin Squad Member

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I have to admit, I didn't notice the armor at all in the movie Joan of Arc. Good story. And the picture in the article didn't strike me as odd Cate Blanchette not having giant boob armor. But big boob plate armor is in virtually every video game. I have no idea if it would be realistic or not. Probably not.

There was a cool but not well received Rutger Hauer movie called "Flesh and Blood" that had unique armor for every character, strange weapons too. Every character had some odd custom made armor and you could tell which character it was from far away (and what weapons they would be using, as they all had a unique fighting style). Most original armor and weapons movie I have seen in a long, long while. No boob armor tho.

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin Steele wrote:

I have to admit, I didn't notice the armor at all in the movie Joan of Arc. Good story. And the picture in the article didn't strike me as odd Cate Blanchette not having giant boob armor. But big boob plate armor is in virtually every video game. I have no idea if it would be realistic or not. Probably not.

There was a cool but not well received Rutger Hauer movie called Flesh and Blood that had unique armor for every character, strange weapons too. Every character had some odd custom made armor and you could tell which character it was from far away (and what weapons they would be using, as they all had a unique fighting style). Most original armor and weapons movie I have seen in a long, long while. No boob armor tho.

That was actually not a bad movie. Definitely for mature audiences.

Goblin Squad Member

I could swear we just had this conversation.

Honestly, I don't really mind if big badass hero types have the option to dress in extravagant and wildly impractical armour designs. They probably have more gold than sense.

I'm not fond of the 'boob plate' being the default female armour piece though, to the point where random city guards are wearing it. Then I just get the sense that "someone" gets nervous if they can't tell whether someone is a guy or a gal at a glance.

Silver Crusade

Slaunyeh wrote:
Then I just get the sense that "someone" gets nervous if they can't tell whether someone is a guy or a gal at a glance.

Which is funny, since there are tons of other artistic cues that are not subtle (that is, the viewer can quickly discern them) and make gender clear just as easily as the 'armor' in question.

Face shape is one way. Some artists will add extra detail in the hair lines they draw. Accessories can do it as well; adding a little cloth skirt or similar item that goes over the armor can suggest gender as well. Now, it's true not all of these (or in some cases, ANY of these) are appropriate for all characters. They're just very basic examples.

Nonetheless, there are several ways an artist can indicate gender without unreasonably or unrealistically emphasizing the chest area. An example, for those interested in doing a bit of image-searching, might be the character Charlotte from the video game series "Samurai Shodown" (Yes, spelled incorrectly as 'Shodown'). Not wholly realistic, but a good example of conveying "female" without the use of the armor in controversy here.


Celestial Pegasus wrote:

Which is funny, since there are tons of other artistic cues that are not subtle (that is, the viewer can quickly discern them) and make gender clear just as easily as the 'armor' in question.

Face shape is one way. Some artists will add extra detail in the hair lines they draw. Accessories can do it as well; adding a little cloth skirt or similar item that goes over the armor can suggest gender as well. Now, it's true not all of these (or in some cases, ANY of these) are appropriate for all characters. They're just very basic examples.

Nonetheless, there are several ways an artist can indicate gender without unreasonably or unrealistically emphasizing the chest area. An example, for those interested in doing a bit of image-searching, might be the character Charlotte from the video game series "Samurai Shodown" (Yes, spelled incorrectly as 'Shodown'). Not wholly realistic, but a good example of conveying "female" without the use of the armor in controversy here.

A skirt and unbound hair styles are also rather problematic in combat situations. Fashion, as a whole, has little place on the battlefield. I'm not sure how much a soldier should worry about the gender of his opponent while dodging a greatsword.

And then there are some of us who might enjoy a certain freedom from heteronormative gender roles outside of combat... Not talkin' about kilts, here.

What could possibly be more important to a sandbox game than the freedom to design and present your character however you wish? I imagine non-feminine silhouettes should be the most mundane character option available to players. Given GW's blessedly progressive public stance about sexualities, we might finally be able to hope for wigs, cosmetics, non-gender-locked clothing or hairstyles... It'd be nice to put the characters back at the forefront of Role Playing Games. It'd be ghastly if GW restricted skin tone for in-game characters. An RPG with only white characters possible? What do you suppose the public's reaction should be to such a thing? Is it time we see an RPG with characters representing the full gamut of humanity?

What if I wanted to create a girl who shaved her head and passed herself off as a boy in the army? Or a jewel-bedecked waifish Bard dancing for his dinner at the local seedy tavern?

Or an assassin willing to do whatever it takes to get close to his target, to give a more concrete and realistic gameplay example...

There is such a huge variety of compelling characters to explore. 'Twould be a shame to yet lack that variety of the human experience for the sake of -- what? Mass appeal?

Didn't think PFO was ever intended "for the masses". Something for the devs to think on (and respond to!).

Silver Crusade

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Sure. You're right, those things can be problematic in a fight. I said as much: "It's true not all of these (or in some cases, ANY of these) are appropriate for all characters. They're just very basic examples." (emphasis mine, upon my own text)

If you're looking at wholly realistic designs, some of the aspects I've suggested will indeed hit upon "Uhh, that... wouldn't really fly all that well in a real fight." Okie-dokey. Conceded. Conceded it before anyone pointed it out.

The point I was trying to establish is that 'breast-emphasizing' armor seems incredibly unnecessary in almost every regard. There are other artistic ways to indicate gender, and I would hope to see more fantasy imagery explore this instead of using said absurd armor designs as a rather widespread shortcut for the matter.

"Female disguised as male in the army" would be a valid reason to not use such cues. Gender disguising for assassination purposes would be another good reason. I wasn't saying "every female adventurer should have these cues"; there are obvious reasons why they might not want to. I was saying they're basic examples of how one might tastefully tackle this topic so without falling victim to the 'organ shattering' armor design decried in the article linked by Nihimon.

None of this was meant to be discriminatory or imply stereotypes must be followed. I apologize if it came across that way; it was only meant as an extremely simple example to prove that gender can be determined in other ways in art/character design if making it obvious to the viewer is a priority. For some players, it might not be. That's fine.

Goblin Squad Member

Real women, in the real world, have closets full of impractical items. I don't think its unreasonable to assume women in a fantasy world would be any different.

Besides, these fantasy characters are wearing armor 24/7. I'd say a chain mail bikini is more realistic than wearing full plate all day.

Goblin Squad Member

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For the record, I would like to see each player able to choose their own style, ranging from Red Sonja to Brienne of Tarth.

I believe that supporting the player's ability to express their own vision of their character (within the necessary constraints of the game mechanics) is far more important than enforcing any particular style choice.

Goblin Squad Member

Rafkin wrote:

Real women, in the real world, have closets full of impractical items. I don't think its unreasonable to assume women in a fantasy world would be any different.

Besides, these fantasy characters are wearing armor 24/7. I'd say a chain mail bikini is more realistic than wearing full plate all day.

Well the impractical items yes, but what is impractical but tolerable for a date, is drastically different than the impractical tolerable for a physical labor job. IE you will see high heels all the time in a business environment, at bars etc... Not so commonly in women in dangerous positions that involve physical labor, doubly so when lives are on the line. While a female firefighter or construction worker is a rare sight on it's own... I've never seen or heard of one in high heels or a mini-skirt while on the job.

But ignoring the entire realism argument for a moment here, it's a fantasy world, the important key is to determine what is the right amount of suspended belief, physics for the context of the world etc...

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Speaking of impractical armor, I just want shoulder pieces that allow my character to look over his shoulder and fit through a doorway.

Maybe the answer to boob plate and chainmail bikinis on town guards is to also include codpieces. Elaborate codpieces. In eye-catching, contrasting colors.

If a settlement equips their female town guards with chain bikinis, then the male town guards wear outlandish codpieces. If the female town guards wear less skimpy armor, the male town guards wear less outrageous codpieces. Let the eye-candy factor be balanced by the brain-bleach factor, when it comes to the stereotypical male audience.

Edit: Dress choices for PCs remain open. This idea is just meant to keep NPCs who are supposed to be soldiers from looking like they come from a different kind of 'fantasy'.


Nihimon wrote:

For the record, I would like to see each player able to choose their own style, ranging from Red Sonja to Brienne of Tarth.

I believe that supporting the player's ability to express their own vision of their character (within the necessary constraints of the game mechanics) is far more important than enforcing any particular style choice.

QFT. I'll be honest, I'm surprised to see debate over this issue in relation to Pathfinder. Their quality visual art is constantly laureled in every product review I've read. The review could read, "I hate everything about this, especially all the things" and it will always conclude, "But, as always, Paizo again delivers eye-candy for the soul." The 'problem' will never be realism vs. fantasy, empowerment vs. subjectification, etc... it is an issue of smut vs. art. With Paizo/Pathfinder/Goblinworks, I feel confident in saying I have no fear that this will be an issue.

Goblin Squad Member

Aunt Tony wrote:

Unless the game can accurately simulate the functionality of garments, we'll continue to see "tools" designed with visual aesthetic as foremost priority.

What I mean is that the medium is purely non-physical and there aren't any real reasons to design armors as anything but costume. You could give the same stats to a sandwich board as full plate. Players have no in-game motivation to care about the real-world efficacy of their armor.

Which makes perfect sense. However, I would disagree with the idea (not necessarily YOUR idea) that "boob plate" and chainmail bikinis are aesthetically better than more realistic-looking armour. I find the latter far more immersive.


Rafkin wrote:

Real women, in the real world, have closets full of impractical items. I don't think its unreasonable to assume women in a fantasy world would be any different.

Besides, these fantasy characters are wearing armor 24/7. I'd say a chain mail bikini is more realistic than wearing full plate all day.

Depends. Chainmail chafes the nipples.

But seriously, change "women" to "people" it'll be more accurate. No denying that high heels are just ridiculously impractical, but there's also no denying that they're flattering to the leg.

Real women, in the real world, tend to understand the cost vs. benefit of fashion vs. function. My closet has some highly impractical stuff in it, were you to consider each item in terms of its combat performance. But I'm not very sure you'd be the only person who understands this.

Those of us who've worn the crap probably have just as keen an understanding of the limitations of big hoop earrings, flowing scarves, stiletto boots and full-length evening gowns.

Given the choice between full plate mail and an evening gown, I think I know which one I'd prefer to wear all day, too. I don't think I've ever knowingly roleplayed a character who literally never took off the armor. (What, is there some sort of "poopchute" hatch built in, or something?!)

So, again, for the purposes of a fantasy world populated by purely fictional characters governed by utterly unrealistic, non-simulationist mechanics... aesthetics and sensibilities are what is important.

Tuoweit wrote:
Which makes perfect sense. However, I would disagree with the idea (not necessarily YOUR idea) that "boob plate" and chainmail bikinis are aesthetically better than more realistic-looking armour. I find the latter far more immersive.

I go either way depending on my mood and the art/craftsmanship involved. Aesthetics and fantasy are way more important to me personally than silly ideals about womens' bodies. But then, I'm an artist by trade and temperament.

Nihimon wrote:

For the record, I would like to see each player able to choose their own style, ranging from Red Sonja to Brienne of Tarth.

I believe that supporting the player's ability to express their own vision of their character (within the necessary constraints of the game mechanics) is far more important than enforcing any particular style choice.

I'm QFT as well.

KarlBob wrote:

Speaking of impractical armor, I just want shoulder pieces that allow my character to look over his shoulder and fit through a doorway.

Maybe the answer to boob plate and chainmail bikinis on town guards is to also include codpieces. Elaborate codpieces. In eye-catching, contrasting colors.

If a settlement equips their female town guards with chain bikinis, then the male town guards wear outlandish codpieces. If the female town guards wear less skimpy armor, the male town guards wear less outrageous codpieces. Let the eye-candy factor be balanced by the brain-bleach factor, when it comes to the stereotypical male audience.

Edit: Dress choices for PCs remain open. This idea is just meant to keep NPCs who are supposed to be soldiers from looking like they come from a different kind of 'fantasy'.

And quoting this for truth, too. Every word of it.

God, how I loathe Warhammer and its groupie called Warcraft.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I don't necessarily loathe Warhammer. At least in the very old edition I own, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay showed mostly normal-width shoulders, except maybe the odd chaos warrior. Hmm, and maybe an orc or two. Maybe the more recent editions are worse.

(It's a hardcover from the late 80s/early 90s. I think the US printing was a Games Workshop/Chaosium joint project. It's one of the only RPGs I've ever owned where the flavor text specifically stated that the world as they knew it was ultimately doomed, no matter what the players did. That and Call of Cthulhu. Hmmm. Maybe not a coincidence.)

Warhammer 40K is a different story. I think Space Marines have needed rear-view cameras in their powered armor since the first edition of that game. Any Space Marine without a helmet is just asking for a broken jaw (or a black eye) and a "frag me" sign taped to his back by his squad mates.

Regarding WOW, I agree. I LOATHE the shoulders on nearly every suit of armor.

Goblin Squad Member

If there are chain-mail bikinis and other sorts of armor for females that defy logical use, then I propose we also have chain-mail chip'n'dale outfits and similar for the men, just to keep things even.

Why should we guys have all the fun, after all.


HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:

If there are chain-mail bikinis and other sorts of armor for females that defy logical use, then I propose we also have chain-mail chip'n'dale outfits and similar for the men, just to keep things even.

Why should we guys have all the fun, after all.

I think I'll hereby found PFO's first charity strip joint. For the lost and homeless whiteknights who have no damsels to rescue.

I shall call it "Big Strong Polearms".

Goblin Squad Member

Plate mail "boob contoured" armour is re-donk-ulous. Please don't be sexist simpleton's and allow them.

If you want some skimpy out fit's that are by in large cosmetic...then feel free, but to call the "Hooter's-esque" crap-tacular armour...armour...is a joke. Please don't be French shower's.

Nuff said.

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
Maybe the answer to boob plate and chainmail bikinis on town guards is to also include codpieces. Elaborate codpieces. In eye-catching, contrasting colors.

Not exactly colourful, but something like this?

Goblin Squad Member

I vote "No! Nooo! Aaggh, my eyes! Nooo!" on prominent codpieces. Regarding armor, I vote for a healthy mix of practical and impractical.

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