Nice move, Disney


Video Games

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Arnwyn wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
and the bugs in no way make the game unplayable.
"Unplayable"? That's not much of a benchmark. "Not unplayable" isn't enough, I'm afraid.

Have you even played any of the games? Because it's a bit hard to explain in exactitude how "playable" a game is.

If you have played them, you know they work fine with the occasional wonky thing like enemies deciding they want to shoot into orbit and crash down a few minutes later.

Arnwyn wrote:
Quote:
And you seem to have a very condescending attitude about it as well.
A condescending attitude towards bugs in a product one has paid for is hardly surprising, nor inappropriate.

But the attitude is directed towards the people who buy them and enjoy the games, which is surprising and inappropriate.

Arnwyn wrote:
No - Bethesda absolutely deserves to be criticized for its buggy, buggy games.

Criticized? Perhaps.

Boycotted? Hardly.

Attacked by people who have little to no idea of what the quality assurance process entails for a game like that? Definitely not.

Sovereign Court

Have you any idea how many lines of code there is in a game engine nowdays? It takes hours to compile. That's how many. A single error can cause, say a giant hitting you with his club to send you flying into orbit. And it's a b*t*h to find. Because there are thousands upon thousands of lines of code that works. Some of it not as intended, but there are no errors or warnings. It works. So it's hard to find.

I generally tend not to judge things if i don't know how they work.

The Exchange

hmm Daggerfall, thats going back a bit, they basically really overreached themselves there since as I recall most of the buggy bits had to do with the random generators for various stuff (dungeon layouts I'm looking at you.) and the intereactions of the geometry with a number of differant movement modes, (flight, climb, swim, walk, and I think it even attempted point to point teleportation though I'm not 100% on that.)

But heho knowing the limits of the equipment your working with is part of the process.

Shadow Lodge

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Hama wrote:

Have you any idea how many lines of code there is in a game engine nowdays? It takes hours to compile. That's how many. A single error can cause, say a giant hitting you with his club to send you flying into orbit. And it's a b*t*h to find. Because there are thousands upon thousands of lines of code that works. Some of it not as intended, but there are no errors or warnings. It works. So it's hard to find.

I generally tend not to judge things if i don't know how they work.

Well, quite frankly, if their overreaching their ability to fix a game, then maybe they should make somewhat less ambitious games.

I realize that it's a lot of code, and that it will be difficult to find. But that's their job. And if they want customers to continue to pay for their product, they should actually be trying to put out a product that is as bug-free as possible.

And if they nearly have a complete inability to code for the PS3, maybe they should just accept that, and quit trying.

Sovereign Court

I wouldn't say that a couple of bugs made Skyrim unplayable. I had immeasurable fun playing it. And people should always start ambitious projects, because that's what drives humanity forward. Without ambition, we would still be living in wood and thatch houses, working the fields.
As for the PS3, i can't say. I don't own any console after Sega Genesis, nor will i. I have a PC.


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Kthulhu wrote:
Hama wrote:

Have you any idea how many lines of code there is in a game engine nowdays? It takes hours to compile. That's how many. A single error can cause, say a giant hitting you with his club to send you flying into orbit. And it's a b*t*h to find. Because there are thousands upon thousands of lines of code that works. Some of it not as intended, but there are no errors or warnings. It works. So it's hard to find.

I generally tend not to judge things if i don't know how they work.

Well, quite frankly, if their overreaching their ability to fix a game, then maybe they should make somewhat less ambitious games.

I realize that it's a lot of code, and that it will be difficult to find. But that's their job. And if they want customers to continue to pay for their product, they should actually be trying to put out a product that is as bug-free as possible.

They are about as bug-free as it's possible to get them.

Hell, even look at the fan patches for the game, it takes a team of quite talented in their own right coders many months to even fix the most prominent ones.

The fact still remains that the games are fun and well designed in gameplay and setting/immersiveness. A few bugs in the game does not mean they are "overreaching their ability". It's an inevitability that the more complex a game is the more bugs it's going to have.

Hama wrote:
I don't own any console after Sega Genesis, nor will i. I have a PC.

You miss a lot of good games going PC only. Especially from the last gen systems (Especially especially the PS2).

Unless you wanna talk emulators but from past experience that conversation will get nixed pretty quick by the mods.

Sovereign Court

I used emulators for PS2...primarily for final fantasy and kingdom hearts.
I know i missed some good games, but i don't have enough disposable income to buy two 450 Euro consoles games for them, and to maintain my gaming PC and buy games for it too. So i chose the best option out of the three.
Plus if there is a really good game i borrow a console from my cousin for a few days.


Arnwyn wrote:
No - Bethesda absolutely deserves to be criticized for its buggy, buggy games.

Definitely. But even a Bethesda-level product can be enjoyable. Despite the issues, I quite enjoyed games like Fallout 3 and Skyrim (at least before reaching a 100 in sneak :p)


You know, I'm always up for a boycott.

I wonder why I'm the only one considering that.


Icyshadow wrote:

You know, I'm always up for a boycott.

I wonder why I'm the only one considering that.

They cleverly bought up the Fallout franchise, making it effectively impossible to boycott them!


Rynjin wrote:
Arnwyn wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
and the bugs in no way make the game unplayable.
"Unplayable"? That's not much of a benchmark. "Not unplayable" isn't enough, I'm afraid.

Have you even played any of the games? Because it's a bit hard to explain in exactitude how "playable" a game is.

If you have played them, you know they work fine with the occasional wonky thing like enemies deciding they want to shoot into orbit and crash down a few minutes later.

Yes, I have. In any case, you were the one who brought up "unplayable" - I'm noting that that's probably not a standard you even want to bring up in the first place.

The games are buggy. Annoyingly so. See previous posts in this thread (and the Skyrim) thread for the multitude of problems, including skill issues, multiple crashes [and that IS a big problem], and - indeed - unplayable frame rate drops (requiring multiple patches over multiple months.

There are undeniable problems.

Rynjin wrote:
Arnwyn wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
And you seem to have a very condescending attitude about it as well.
A condescending attitude towards bugs in a product one has paid for is hardly surprising, nor inappropriate.
But the attitude is directed towards the people who buy them and enjoy the games, which is surprising and inappropriate.

??? Where? It looks like you're making things up.

Rynjin wrote:
Arnwyn wrote:
No - Bethesda absolutely deserves to be criticized for its buggy, buggy games.

Criticized? Perhaps.

Boycotted? Hardly.

Attacked by people who have little to no idea of what the quality assurance process entails for a game like that? Definitely not.

Excellent that you agree that they should be criticized. Good. Not sure what you're going on about with "boycotted"... And "attacked"? Hoo-boy. Now that's out of left field. (In the end, though, it's irrelevant to normal consumers about what the "quality assurance process entails". That's for the company who wishes to release horrendously (over)ambitious games to work out - normal consumers pay to get something that works.)


I've honestly never had Skyrim crash on me except when I installed incompatible mods. Across Xbox 360 and PC and oodles and oodles of hours of playtime. Most people I know have not had multiple crashes either.

Except I hear Bethesda likes to repeatedly kick the PS3 in the teeth whenever they can. That's where I see most of the complaints stem from.

I'm not saying they don' happen, since obviously they've happened to you or you wouldn't complain about them, but I'm telling you my frame of reference here. The buggiest game they've released recently has been New Vegas (which DID have multiple crashes, quest destroying glitches, and so on almost universally) but that one was not developed by Bethesda so I generally don't include it in these discussions.

Boycotting was suggested by at least one poster I saw ("I won't buy any more Bethesda games until" and so on.), that's why I mentioned it.

Arnwyn wrote:
??? Where? It looks like you're making things up.
Quote:
IGN will give it 10/10 anyway, and gamers will lap it up regardless.

Which is being condescending towards people who buy and enjoy the games by implying that they will "lap up" anything, no matter how bad.


Rynjin wrote:

I've honestly never had Skyrim crash on me except when I installed incompatible mods. Across Xbox 360 and PC and oodles and oodles of hours of playtime. Most people I know have not had multiple crashes either.

Except I hear Bethesda likes to repeatedly kick the PS3 in the teeth whenever they can. That's where I see most of the complaints stem from.

I'm not saying they don' happen, since obviously they've happened to you or you wouldn't complain about them, but I'm telling you my frame of reference here. The buggiest game they've released recently has been New Vegas (which DID have multiple crashes, quest destroying glitches, and so on almost universally) but that one was not developed by Bethesda so I generally don't include it in these discussions.

Boycotting was suggested by at least one poster I saw ("I won't buy any more Bethesda games until" and so on.), that's why I mentioned it.

Arnwyn wrote:
??? Where? It looks like you're making things up.
Quote:
IGN will give it 10/10 anyway, and gamers will lap it up regardless.
Which is being condescending towards people who buy and enjoy the games by implying that they will "lap up" anything, no matter how bad.

Funny, I never had any issues with Fallout 3 or New Vegas, but every one of my friends who played skyrim in the first few months has had it crash on them pre mods.


Rynjin wrote:
I've honestly never had Skyrim crash on me except when I installed incompatible mods. Across Xbox 360 and PC and oodles and oodles of hours of playtime. Most people I know have not had multiple crashes either.

I hope you're not pretending that this is anything more than a couple of data points and anecdotal evidence, are you? I counter with, "me, and most people I know, have had multiple crashes". Big whoop for both of us.

In any case, it is entirely irrelevant what your (and my) personal experience (and "most people [we] know") have encountered. The bugginess of Bethesda games is well-documented, and acknowledged by Bethesda themselves.

Quote:
Boycotting was suggested by at least one poster I saw ("I won't buy any more Bethesda games until" and so on.), that's why I mentioned it.

That's not necessarily a boycott - that could simply be intelligent consumer behavior. I'm sure you're away of people who have had problems with a certain brand of automobile, and no longer buy that brand and/or from that manufacturer. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. Be careful of misinterpreting intentions and/or over-broad definitions.

Quote:
Quote:
IGN will give it 10/10 anyway, and gamers will lap it up regardless.
Which is being condescending towards people who buy and enjoy the games by implying that they will "lap up" anything, no matter how bad.

Hm. I can see your point here. (But, being an IGN reader - and the comment written as a point of view coming from a Bethesda executive - I chuckled. And I own Skyrim and Fallout 3 (and NV, for that matter).)


I bought Skyrim day one, no crashes but I did have a flying giant chase me high into the sky after playing baseball with me using a tree. I also own Fallout 3 (the collector's edition lunchbox version), etc. No framerate issues either, I have always built myself a PC that needed a runway.

Bethesda has always been buggy out of the gate though. Pretty common knowledge. Wait a patch or three before buying is my advice if you can wait.

Letting EA use Star Wars.... I don't know yet. Visceral made Dead Space one of my "big three" fave franchises (Uncharted and Arkham being the other two), I enjoyed DS3 despite it being not on par with the first two so I'll reserve my opinion when the game is released. If EA is still trying to mold everything to be Call of Duty-ish to appeal to a broader range of gamers (like DS3 for example), I wont be happy.

I'm not a fan of EA by a longshot, but games like Freedom Force, Dragon Age Origins, Dead Space 1-3, Mass Effect, C&C3/Kane's Wrath, etc were pretty great for me. YMMV

P.S. I'm not an IGN fan either (or reader for that matter).


Arnwyn wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
I've honestly never had Skyrim crash on me except when I installed incompatible mods. Across Xbox 360 and PC and oodles and oodles of hours of playtime. Most people I know have not had multiple crashes either.
I hope you're not pretending that this is anything more than a couple of data points and anecdotal evidence, are you? I counter with, "me, and most people I know, have had multiple crashes". Big whoop for both of us.

Nope, I'm not. Hence the bit just below it:

Quote:
I'm not saying they don' happen, since obviously they've happened to you or you wouldn't complain about them, but I'm telling you my frame of reference here.

Sovereign Court

Here's the thing I don't get about Star Wars: people complain, say "Lucas is destroying Star Wars", then continue to buy Star Wars products.

George Lucas isn't the problem, he was a small part of the problem granted, but he's a heartless business man who adds "funny" characters like Jar-Jar into his movies because he thinks that the toys will sell. The real problem with Star Wars has always been the fans. I loved Star Wars as well once upon a time, but then George started meddling with the product, and suddenly we had Hans gunning down a poor, likely cross eyed, farsighted rodian (who couldn't hit something less then 5 feet in front of him) for sport. Star Wars fans were outraged of course but then they kept buying Star Wars stuff. If people had stopped buying the remastered editions Lucas would have gotten the message.

Disney is the same sort of creature Lucas is, they know that slapping a Star Wars logo on any sort of garbage will have the sad Star Wars fan buying it up . . . sure they're complain and cry that [insert owner of the Star Wars brand here] is ruining Star Wars, but they will still buy it up.

Now I have a bit more faith in Disney then I do Lucas, granted Disney is pretty much a LE organization that's pretty much intent on extending copyright and buying up every IP it can get it's hands on to the detriment of North American culture and society, but they do know how to handle an IP. They're going to get the best talent to work on Star Wars so they can mine it for all it's worth. If they think that EA (which is pretty much a NE entity) is the best choice for handling the Star Wars games then I trust that Disney has done their homework.

Sovereign Court

What makes Disney and EA evil? You dont like their business practices and product so that makes them evil?

Sovereign Court

In EA's case I'd say it's how they treat their employees. Disney on the other hand has increased copyright protection on intellectual property to a ridiculous level. Originally copyright was intended to allow the creator the chance to make a living off of the proceeds of their work. Originally they had something like twenty years to do that, now, thanks almost entirely to Disney lawyers, it's something like 70 years after the death of the author. Why is that evil? Well suppose a bunch of fans got together and decided to make a Star Wars film, under the original copyright laws we could have seen something like that in the 90s, but now thanks to Disney, something that was created just before I was born, won't be public domain within my lifetime. Heck Steamboat Willy, which came out in 1928, won't be in public domain until 2023. Disney lawyers have been threatening to sue anyone that argues otherwise despite discrepancies in the movie's copyright notice.

Meanwhile Disney's empire was built on public domain characters, strengthened through the purchase of other author's sweat and blood, and maintained by an army of lawyers. Disney has taken something intended to protect authors and turned it into something that's almost entirely a tool of the faceless corporation.

As to their products? I like them just fine. I mean some of it is hit and miss but Disney has made some classic movies over the years and EA has put out some great games.


Pan wrote:
What makes Disney and EA evil? You dont like their business practices and product so that makes them evil?

In addition to everything Guy Humual wrote, I'd like to add my reasons for ranking EA and Disney as undisputably horrible entities:

Disney is now a shameless middle-man that hoards content. This is an unnecessay step in the creative process, but these people want that; they want a parasitic relationship with the consumer. They do nothing aside from marketing and bloating retail prices.

EA canceled Thrill Kill due to personal tastes and refused to let anyone else release the title. This type of behavior is irredeemably evil in societies like ours. The precedent set was an abomination and an affront to the democratic process.

These activities qualify for a vile feat any day of the week.

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