Smallest group of 20's to fell the Tarrasque?


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Silver Crusade

But would the Tarrasque ever count as a corpse? "Unconscious" or "out of combat" is not "dead." As long as it's still regenerating (so, always), I doubt animate *dead* would apply. Because "Targets: one or more corpses touched."


Joe M. wrote:
But would the Tarrasque ever count as a corpse? "Unconscious" or "out of combat" is not "dead." As long as it's still regenerating (so, always), I doubt animate *dead* would apply. Because "Targets: one or more corpses touched."

Per the beastiary: "If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains."


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Artanthos wrote:
Neither the bag of devouring nor animate dead would work. Given that even disintegration and wishes do not stop the Tarrasque from spontaneously reforming, lesser magics are unlikely to succeed.

So, how'd you come to the conclusion that a bag of devouring is a lesser magic? If you yank out any of true resurrection, miracle, or wish to try to bring back someone consumed by a bag of devouring, what happens? Oh, yeah, 50% chance of permanent failure. Looks like it's literally evenly matched with those spells to me, and certainly a lot mightier than a mere disintegrate (which would be overcome by any of them).

Artanthos wrote:
Feeding the Tarrasque to a bag of devouring would result in spontaneous reformation either next to or inside the bag. (resulting in a destroyed bag)

Actually, reformation, if possible, would happen inside the extradimensional creature for which the bag of devouring is a mere "feeding orifice". You're invited to guess at what chance the tarrasque would have there, but, since we don't have any information that's PF canon beyond that a wish only gives a 50% chance of bringing something back, it's hardly certain the tarrasque can manage it.

SPACEBALL12345 wrote:
As far as the bag, you are right, that probably won't work. It needs an hour to digest.

That's what happens with ordinary matter. With creatures, a bag of devouring pulls them in as a free action, and then the creatures drawn within are consumed in 1 round.


I don't get these constant Tarrasque threads.

Just use a carefully worded Wish to give it an awful and hyperactive case of Ebola/Lepersy/Flesh Eating Bacteria whatever so that as soon as it's back up it rots away pretty much instantaneously because death doesn't cure a disease, especially when its not down long enough for the virus/bacteria to die away.

You don't need a Ring of UberWTf? to figure out the obvious.

Scarab Sages

The Tarrasque is immune to disease. You cannot give it ebola/leprosy/flesh eating bacteria.

If killing it were as simple as a wish, the means to permanently kill the tarrasque would have been discovered by the first level 17+ caster to fight the beast.

Sczarni

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Also maybe we don't want to blight the countryside with flesh-eating diseases. The whole reason we're fighting the Tarrasque is to SAVE it, isn't it? You just know that even if that idea worked, Big T would last long enough to drag himself to the nearest water supply.

Silver Crusade

claymade wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
But would the Tarrasque ever count as a corpse? "Unconscious" or "out of combat" is not "dead." As long as it's still regenerating (so, always), I doubt animate *dead* would apply. Because "Targets: one or more corpses touched."
Per the beastiary: "[No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect.] If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains."

Boom! Good point. So if you get a death effect off, the animate dead strategy might come into play. I'll leave it to others to debate whether there are problems with that strategy. I was only looking at the question of "does Big T ever become a corpse."

[P.S. I haven't played at higher levels yet so I'm not sure, but aren't most death effects against Fortitude? In which case Big T's +31 might pose a problem for this strategy anyway.]


Hm that raises another question: does the regeneration stop for 3 rounds if killed through hit point damage as well, or only in the explicit case it fails a save vs disintegrate or similar spell? If it stops from hp damage then we can almost garuntee a big T kill with an 11th level diviner wizard. If it requires a death effect to disable, we might have to get some scrolls.

Anybody know/have evidence to support the regen temporarily stopping from hit point damage?


Ok, great. It's immune to disease

Use wish to give it a permanent and extremely severe and horrible addiction to heroin, nicotene, alcohol etc. so it lays there and shivers and sweats indefinitely.

It's never going to find a supply to satiate it's needs and will just lay there in withdrawal trying not to choke to death on its own vomit..or if it does it'll rise again to do the same.

The Exchange

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Kiinyan wrote:
I can see the argument of the Tarrasque coming back from suffocation, since it is a save, but not starvation. Starvation is not a form of attack, and it cannot be healed until food is consumed. As long as the Tarrasque is kept away from food (I believe they cut it up and moved it into a small demiplane) it will eventually die simply because starvation damage cannot be healed
starvation rules wrote:
A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort.

The keyword you ignored there was "character." Surely you don't think a bear starts dying 4 days into hibernation?

T is known to nap for centuries between popping out and munching down on a nation or two. Yes, if you lock T up in some inaccessable place, it would *eventually* start taking starvation damage, but not in your lifetime. And eventually it would take lethal damage equal to its hp, and go into a cycle of being dead, then at 1hp, then dead again.

Riiight up until a curious adventurer, or small animal, or whatever, finds its way into your impregnable cell (adventurers are GREAT at breaking into impregnable cells) at which point, jaws go SNAP, T heals to full, and the rampaging begins.

I can't help but think that your "kill T by starvation" solution looks a hell of a lot like T's natural lifecycle.


Master Summoner - Summon an army of Lantern Archons. Using his SLA, and the feat Superior Summons, he'd have a minimum of 48 Lantern Archons, but an average of 64 (and a max of 96). So you're looking at a minimum of 96 beams of light that deal 1d6 points of DR ignoring damage. With an average of 128 beams of light, that Tarrasque will be down pretty quickly.

After that, you just got to keep beating him down or use one of the above methods of keeping him down.

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
SPACEBALL12345 wrote:
Anybody know/have evidence to support the regen temporarily stopping from hit point damage?

I feel like "no form of attack" pretty clearly kicks the legs out from under your theory.

Silver Crusade

Tels wrote:

Master Summoner - Summon an army of Lantern Archons. Using his SLA, and the feat Superior Summons, he'd have a minimum of 48 Lantern Archons, but an average of 64 (and a max of 96). So you're looking at a minimum of 96 beams of light that deal 1d6 points of DR ignoring damage. With an average of 128 beams of light, that Tarrasque will be down pretty quickly.

After that, you just got to keep beating him down or use one of the above methods of keeping him down.

Hahahaha. Fun thought, but it would be a disaster:

Tarrasque wrote:
Carapace (Su) The tarrasque's scales deflect cones, lines, rays, and magic missile spells, rendering the tarrasque immune to such effects. There is a 30% chance a deflected effect reflects back in full force at the caster; otherwise it is simply negated.

Scarab Sages

Tels wrote:

Master Summoner - Summon an army of Lantern Archons. Using his SLA, and the feat Superior Summons, he'd have a minimum of 48 Lantern Archons, but an average of 64 (and a max of 96). So you're looking at a minimum of 96 beams of light that deal 1d6 points of DR ignoring damage. With an average of 128 beams of light, that Tarrasque will be down pretty quickly.

After that, you just got to keep beating him down or use one of the above methods of keeping him down.

The Tarrasque is immune to rays. He also reflects them back at their source 30% of the time.

Guess that means he is also immune to disintegrate.


If you just need to rid the prime material plane of it... After you down it from damage and have it really negative HP, just set a bag of holding next to it and wrap a portable hole around a rock. Toss the rock in the bag (from greater than 10 feet away). Tarrasque is now the astral's problem.

Heck, with a good golem, undead, or sacrifical player holding open the bag and running (crazed-like) at the Tarrasque, or being teleported in... You could do this at pretty low level.

Though I guess he might find a color pool eventually, though back to your plane? I doubt it, he's not very smart.


How would using a death effect, feeding the soul on round 1 to a cacodaemon, and then feeding the soul gem to a dretch or something on round 2 work? Does the Tarrasque get sucked down to the lower planes after that?


Does a coup de gras count as an effect that can disable the regeneration? It's kind of an attack, but it is a fort save for a death effect.

Failing that we could use death knell?


There seems to be some misconceptions about how regeneration and damage works; just thought I'd clear that up.

When the tarrasque reaches -34 hp, it doesn't die and regenerate in three rounds. Nothing happens when T reaches -34 hp, as long as regeneration is active - this regardless of the source of damage. Note that regeneration says it doesn't _heal_ damage from starvation etc; not that those kinds of damage can override the "a creature with active regeneration cannot die" clause. Thus, a drowning or starving T won't die and regenerate; it'll simply be unconscious with -14241347923478234234 hp after some centuries. The same is true for lowering it's ability scores - even if you ability drain it to 0 (or -50? can ability scores go to negatives?) con, it won't die; it will be alive and kicking with 30d10-150 (30 hp). If reduced to 0 or negative strength it'll be powerless and just lie down, but won't die.

As long as regeneration is active, big T _cannot die_ by the rules as written. IF (and IF) you find some way to make it die unless it saves, it revives in three rounds.


SPACEBALL12345 wrote:

Does a coup de gras count as an effect that can disable the regeneration? It's kind of an attack, but it is a fort save for a death effect.

Failing that we could use death knell?

Nope. All ways to disable regeneration is mentioned in the monster's regeneration entry. Look at trolls; it says "regeneration 5 (acid or fire)". If CdG bypassed for big T, it'd say "regeneration 40 (coup de grace)". It says "regeneration 40", thus there is no RAW way to bypass the regeneration.

And even if there where, the special clause in regeneration means if you kill it it'd probably get back in three rounds (depends on the wording of the killing ability though, whether it disables regeneration or if it's just a specific case of "can kill creatures with regeneration").


bfobar wrote:
How would using a death effect, feeding the soul on round 1 to a cacodaemon, and then feeding the soul gem to a dretch or something on round 2 work? Does the Tarrasque get sucked down to the lower planes after that?

Which death effect? I know no death effect that works on big T but I might have missed some. However, you can send the tarrasque to the lower planes while alive - that would probably be much easier, and is a completely valid tactic to save a region from it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Sticking him in the astral won't work either. If the classic astral rules are used, all you need do is focus on your destination and that's where you'll head. The tarrasque is going to be focused on getting back where he came from, and he doesn't need to be smart or fast. Eventually he'll wind up at a color pool, emerge back on Golarion, and start chowing down.

Pick another plane,w ithout intelligent lifeforms that will likely send him right back to you, to trap him in.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A wish fails 50% vs Bag of devouring.

It fails 100% against the Tarrasque's regeneration. Guess which effect is more powerful?

Riiiiight.

==Aelryinth


@ilja I'm not saying we coup de gras to keep it down permanently. That's what the animate dead trick is for. We just want to turn off the regeneration.

Yes you are right, normally the way to stop regeneration is listed in the stat block, and big T doesn't have that notation. Instead he has the clause for effects with a failed save that kill him instantly. I think we should count this as an exception to the standard form/notation that supersedes the norms. Specifics > generalities.

The way I was approaching this (if you missed my previous post), is we drop him to negatives, trigger his three rounds of death with a failed save, then use animate dead to strip him of his regeneration.

This seems doable with something below 20, was just curious if we could cheese it with CdG instead of dealing with 36sr, since its technically a save or die.


SPACEBALL12345 wrote:
@ilja I'm not saying we coup de gras to keep it down permanently. That's what the animate dead trick is for. We just want to turn off the regeneration.

Yes, but there is no way by RAW to turn off the regeneration (unless there is and I've missed it, of course).

Quote:
Instead he has the clause for effects with a failed save that kill him instantly. I think we should count this as an exception to the standard form/notation that supersedes the norms. Specifics > generalities.

It doesn't say regeneration is overridden or that it can be killed by death effects. It says that IF you manage to kill it with a death effect or similar, it rises again in three rounds. Note the wording:

Quote:
No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

Take for example Phantasmal Killer, and ignore that it's mind-affecting. (I couldn't think of any insta-kill effect that wasn't mindaffecting so we'll have to settle for this.

If the big T is the target of PK, and has less than 100 hit points, nothing happens. Why? Because:
PK's effect is killing the target.
Regeneration means the target cannot be killed.
Big T has to save against the effect, but the effect isn't one that would kill it (since it cannot be killed as long as regeneration is active).
Thus, the three-round thingy never triggers.

If, however, there was a spell with this effect:
"If the target fails the save against this spell, it dies. This spell can kill creatures with regeneration, even if they're not normally vulnerable to death effects."

then that spell WOULD work on big T. It has to save against a spell that will kill it, and if it fails, it dies, and rises again after three rounds.

To get big T to STAY dead, you'd need an effect that does the following:
"If the target fails the save against this spell, it loses it's regeneration ability for X rounds."
First hit it with that, and then kill it in any suitable way.

So far I know of no published way to actually trigger the "kill and it's dead for 3 rounds" thingy, which is probably why it says that the means to kill big T has yet to be found.


Kill the Tarrasque? KILL? Do you pour alkahest down a gold mine too? How about nuking oil fields? Does that sound like fun?

IMMOBILIZE the Tarrasque! Play "Money by the Pound" from Pete's Dragon and roll around in the gold pieces you can harvest.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?261519-D-amp-Dish-The-city-built-around -the-tarrasque


@Ilja ok, I don't know if we are just going around in circles on this one, but now that I'm at a computer I can properly quote/reference things.

First, the part about regeneration that lets us turn it off:

PFSRD: Terrasque Monster Entry wrote:

Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

So we use an effect that would instantly kill it.

Instead of it being instantly dead, it will only stay dead for 3 rounds.
It does say it regenerates from the attacks, but there is a grace period of death so long as it fails the save.

Now its not going to stay dead, but it does count as dead (unless somebody can tell me how you rise from death when you aren't dead) for 3 turns. The next trick is to use animate dead on the corpse. We make it into a skeleton. Here is the entry from the skeleton template:

PFSRD Skeleton Template wrote:
Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.

Since the regeneration isn't improving its ranged or melee attacks, it loses this quality. Now we can destroy it like any other undead.

For additional reference, here is the general rule for regeneration:

PFSRD Universal Monster Rules Regeneration Entry wrote:

Regeneration (Ex)

A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid); Location: hp.

So again, the rules point to the descriptive text of the regeneration ability for the monster for case-by-case rulings. In the case of big T, an effect that instantly kills him will stop it, but only for 3 rounds.

With the example you gave of a spell suppressing the regeneration, I think we are almost on the same page. The difference is its not the spell description that causes it, but the regeneration description.

I hope this helps!


I think you are missing the point. As long as regeneration is active, NO effect will insantly kill it becase it cant die. Big Ts regen doesmt say death effects are an excpetion to the cant die, they say if you find a way ro bypass normal regen (withou deactivating it) that wont work either.

Its a case of general vs specific, and you need something more specifuc than the regen. Exactly how its prioritized is of course affected by DM judgement, but in general youd need something that mentions regeneration or creatures that cannot die.

However animate dead wouldnt be needed. It only rises if no further damage is done to the corpse. IF you can somehow kill it, a single sunder on the corpse would be enough to make it stay dead.on the other hand, if it didnt, its very rules gray if animate dead would keep it dead (depends on if you read the 3-round dead as a casting tine for the abilit or as a delay so to speak). But these are all moot points since we dont have anything in the rules (at least we havent found anything) that disables the regen.


To further clarify: NOTHING in the big ts regen description says it can be killed with death effects. It says that IF yottu use an instakill ability which COULD kill it (without saying if or where such abilities exist) it rises again in 3 rounds.

To have it work as you think it does, the text should have been like "if the tarrasque fails a saving throw against a death effect that could have killedit had it not had regeneration, it dies but rises in three rounds". Instead it says "that would kill it" which is a different thing.


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Ilja here is the big part of the whole thing.

PFSRD Terrasque Monster Entry wrote:

Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

So.... If its not technically dead for those three rounds.... What does it mean by 'rises from death'?

We never use the instant kill effect to actually kill it permanently. Just to put it down for 3 turns. Yes, it still technically has regeneration, but he is still a corpse.

So I'm thinking we could essentially do this at a pretty low level if we can get through his spell resistance. If we can find a way to stack enough bonuses to our SR check, we could use a case full of explosive runes and an area greater dispel at a lower caster level. At least then he's unconscious so we can make attempts with a save or die. I suggest hitpoint damage first because I'm not seeing much to increase spell dc other than raising casting stat and spell focus. Thoughts?


SPACEBALL12345 wrote:

Ilja here is the big part of the whole thing.

PFSRD Terrasque Monster Entry wrote:

Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

So.... If its not technically dead for those three rounds.... What does it mean by 'rises from death'?

We never use the instant kill effect to actually kill it permanently. Just to put it down for 3 turns. Yes, it still technically has regeneration, but he is still a corpse.

So I'm thinking we could essentially do this at a pretty low level if we can get through his spell resistance. If we can find a way to stack enough bonuses to our SR check, we could use a case full of explosive runes and an area greater dispel at a lower caster level. At least then he's unconscious so we can make attempts with a save or die. I suggest hitpoint damage first because I'm not seeing much to increase spell dc other than raising casting stat and spell focus. Thoughts?

No it's not that it isn't technically dead for those three rounds, it is, but to get that to happen you need to kill it. See this bolding:

PFSRD Terrasque Monster Entry wrote:

Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

PFSRD Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Regeneration (Ex)

A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid); Location: hp.

For it to die and be dead for three rounds before rising, you must first find some effect that can actually kill it. Something like CdG or Wail of the Banshee can't kill it, since it has an active regeneration - thus, even if it fails it save against the effect, that is not an effect that would instantly kill it, since it can't be killed.

For it to work the way you think it does, the wording on the tarrasque would have to be:

PFSRD Terrasque Monster Entry wrote:

Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly had it not had regeneration, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

Since the wording isn't like that, what you need is something that can specifically override Regeneration. If you have that, you can kill it (and if it's a save or die effect it will rise again in three rounds unless you sunder it's corpse).


Trap the soul. Object Trigger version with its name written on a massive gem you trick it on swallowing.

Then use that massive gem to make my phylactory because if you want to defeat me as a lich you need to release the Tarrasque.

This idea isn't original but it is effective.

This works because it doesn't kill the tarrasque, it puts it as a a parting gift for a defeated lich.


Ilja wrote:
Since the wording isn't like that, what you need is something that can specifically override Regeneration. If you have that, you can kill it (and if it's a save or die effect it will rise again in three rounds unless you sunder it's corpse).

The "had it not had regeneration" clause is inherent in the fact that it's precisely the tarrasque's regeneration that causes it to come back three rounds later. If you needed "something that can specifically override Regeneration" in order to reach the "three rounds later" clause then you wouldn't ever reach the "three rounds later" clause, since the very thing that causes it to come back three rounds later from the death effect in the first place would have been overridden.

Note also that the Regeneration section states that "Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration." In other words, death due to pure, non-HP-based death effects wouldn't usually get healed by (ordinary) Regeneration.

The point of the Tarrasque's entry about what happens "if the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly" isn't a purely hypothetical rule for a case that can never actually happen in actual play. It's not a rule for what would happen if something impossible happened.

It's a statement expanding the scope beyond what normal Regeneration is capable of, such that even if it is killed by some of the things that would normally take down an ordinary regenerating creature, it will still come back to life three rounds later, because its regeneration is much more powerful than theirs.


claymade wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Since the wording isn't like that, what you need is something that can specifically override Regeneration. If you have that, you can kill it (and if it's a save or die effect it will rise again in three rounds unless you sunder it's corpse).
The "had it not had regeneration" clause is inherent in the fact that it's precisely the tarrasque's regeneration that causes it to come back three rounds later. If you needed "something that can specifically override Regeneration" in order to reach the "three rounds later" clause then you wouldn't ever reach the "three rounds later" clause, since the very thing that causes it to come back three rounds later from the death effect in the first place would have been overridden.

Not necessarily, as I noted in a post above the one you quoted. It depends on the form of override. If the killing ability would have "the target loses it's regeneration" then it would override the three rounds thingy, but if it had "this effect can kill a creature with regeneration even if cannot normally be killed by death effects" or similar it would kill the big T if it failed the saving throw, and T would rise again 3 rounds later.

But neither of those variants exist in the game AFAIK.

Quote:
Note also that the Regeneration section states that "Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration." In other words, death due to pure, non-HP-based death effects wouldn't usually get healed by (ordinary) Regeneration.

Yes, it is true that effects are not healed. That is not the same thing as "can be killed" by them. As long as regeneration is active, you cannot be killed. Regeneration won't heal for example constitution drain, so you can get drained to 0 or a negative (if you can have negative ability scores, unsure) and regen won't heal it, but you still cannot die since you have regeneration and thus you'll run around with a -5 con modifier.

Quote:


It's a statement expanding the scope beyond what normal Regeneration is capable of, such that even if it is killed by some of the things that would normally take down an ordinary regenerating creature, it will still come back to life three rounds later, because its regeneration is much more powerful than theirs.

"Normal" regenerative creatures like trolls and similar can't be killed by death effects either, you know. So while I agree that it's expanding the scope beyond what normal regeneration is capable of (since it can revive T if killed by an effect that can specifically kill creatures with regen), you're mistaken about what the scope of normal regeneration is.

Again, regenerative creatures, and I quote, cannot die as long as regeneration is active. Most creatures have some kind of damage that can override this, big T does not. A troll cannot die except for fire and acid - no starvation, no con drain, no circle of death can kill it (though the first two will put it in a very uncomfortable situation) unless it has taken fire or acid damage. A troll that would become immune to fire and acid would be completely immortal by the rules and known methods, just like the tarrasque. Some people have tried finding methods to get both, but seemed to only be able to get one of them naturally, being forced to get the second from an item, but that was a few splatbooks ago so it might be possible now.


Ilja wrote:

Not necessarily, as I noted in a post above the one you quoted. It depends on the form of override. If the killing ability would have "the target loses it's regeneration" then it would override the three rounds thingy, but if it had "this effect can kill a creature with regeneration even if cannot normally be killed by death effects" or similar it would kill the big T if it failed the saving throw, and T would rise again 3 rounds later.

But neither of those variants exist in the game AFAIK.

So you are saying that those lines in the tarrasque entry are complete hypotheticals that the designers added to no purpose, despite knowing that there was no spell or effect anywhere in the game that could possibly cause the siutation which they nonetheless spent the page space to describe the hypothetical effects of? That just seems... highly implausible to me.

On the other hand, if we assume that those sentences were, in fact, intended to have an actual, possible effect on play, there's a way to read of them that lets them still have that. That (since it's in the very section that describes the specific nature of the tarrasque's regeneration) that what the "would" in the "effect that would kill it instantly" clause is contrasting the tarrasque's regeneration with what "would" happen if it didn't have the regeneration that's in the process of being described, rather than what "would" happen if it had a different kind of regeneration than is being described.

Otherwise those lines are effectively pointless, which I just don't buy.

Scarab Sages

PFSRD Terrasque Monster Entry wrote:

Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration

People are having fun quoting the part about the Tarrasque raising from the dead after 3 rounds, but they are failing to emphasis the first part of the paragraph.

No form of attack can suppress the Tarrasque's regeneration.

You can attack him with weapons, you can attack him with magic, you can even attack him with a wet sponge and lye soap.

None of them will disable his regeneration. Using animate dead on the Tarrasque, if he did fail a save vs. a death effect, would not disable his ability to regenerate.


Quote:
"Normal" regenerative creatures like trolls and similar can't be killed by death effects either, you know.

Actually, they can, but only if those Death effects does not deal actual damages.

For example : Power word (kill) will kill a less than 100 HP troll. However, Wail of the banshee or Finger of death can't kill a troll (as it does damages, and damages does not bypass Regeneration).

The Exchange

Alpha strike 4 fighters next to it with a D-Door, dead to -con in one round.
Disintegrate the corpse.
Sweep the remains into a bag of holding.
Toss the bag into a portable hole.
poof.


We might need to move this discussion to the rules forum. I'd love to have this clarified, but the advice forums might not be the best place to discuss it. I'll start a thread in the following days (unless somebody beats me to it). Lets keep this thread focused on ways to down big t by lowest char level and take our discussion on regeneration vs death effects elsewhere.


Chernobyl wrote:

Alpha strike 4 fighters next to it with a D-Door, dead to -con in one round.

Disintegrate the corpse.
Sweep the remains into a bag of holding.
Toss the bag into a portable hole.
poof.

Don't try disintegrating the Big T, even "dead", it reflects rays... unless your wizard LIKE'S being dust.

Also, I'm surprised so many people think you can kill it with starvation... that's like trying to kill a troll with starvation, it ain't going to work.. just eat an arm, it grows back.


The vast majority of us will probably never even face one....


claymade wrote:
So you are saying that those lines in the tarrasque entry are complete hypotheticals that the designers added to no purpose, despite knowing that there was no spell or effect anywhere in the game that could possibly cause the siutation which they nonetheless spent the page space to describe the hypothetical effects of? That just seems... highly implausible to me.

I'm saying that's what the lines do by the rules. I do not think it was intended, but since the whole discussion is reliant on RAW rather than RAI (if we go by RAI, there's still no discovered way to kill the big T; as said in the regeneration entry "the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered")

So if we go by RAI first and foremost, there's no way to kill the big T since the method to kill it hasn't been discovered.

If we go by RAW first and foremost, there's no way to kill the big T as the only effects that could do so are not yet existing.


Avh wrote:
Quote:
"Normal" regenerative creatures like trolls and similar can't be killed by death effects either, you know.

Actually, they can, but only if those Death effects does not deal actual damages.

For example : Power word (kill) will kill a less than 100 HP troll. However, Wail of the banshee or Finger of death can't kill a troll (as it does damages, and damages does not bypass Regeneration).

No. Link

PFSRD, my bolding wrote:

A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid); Location: hp.

The ability very clearly spells out that it explicitly CANNOT DIE. It does not state death effects are an exception, and regeneration only doesn't heal other attack forms - not that those can kill it. In other words, drain it to 0 con and it will have 0 con and regen won't do anything, but it won't die either.

The only way to kill a creature with regeneration is to remove or disable it's regeneration. When it comes to trolls there are a few ways to do this though, including polymorph effects, flesh to stone etc. And of course trolls can be killed with fire and acid.


The Beast Bond Witch using Twin Souls would be pretty effective a SU ability against a will save that automatically kills the Tarrasque (no receptacle for his soul) and gains control of it body for at least ten hours. I suppose you could use that time to teleport yourself into the sun.


If any legal character could put the tarrasque on 0 Hp then there's something wrong with the system


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
tony gent wrote:

If any legal character could put the tarrasque on 0 Hp then there's something wrong with the system

What makes you say that?


Ravingdork wrote:
tony gent wrote:

If any legal character could put the tarrasque on 0 Hp then there's something wrong with the system

What makes you say that?

Because its supposed to be a challenge for a party of 4, an epic, ultimate show down of titanic proportions, not one shorted in a flurry of feathered fletching.


DM_Blake wrote:

I'm a good tarrasque. Really I am!

You're gonna feed me a whole country? Sweet! That should hold me for a few weeks.

Forget that other guy (I was lying anyway) - I want you to be my friend. I mean it. Really. You got the best snacks EVER!!!!

Oh, and please disregard the fact that your Wild Empathy totally didn't work on me because I'm immune to mind-affecting tricks. You can still be my friend. I promise not to eat you as long as you keep feeding me such wonderful snacks. I promise.

Neither diplomacy nor wild empathy appear to be mind affecting effects. Its not a matter of messing with the tarasques mind or free will, its a matter of a mechanism for the free willed reaction of an NPC that decides how likable you are.

The problem with it (that i didn't notice before) is that the int requirement for magical beasts tops out at 2 and I thought it was 4. Greater wild empathy also apparently has a problem in that it doesn't work on anything but plants and vermin(since no creatures of the lycanthrope, fey, or elemental types have a low enough int to be empathied)

Still... *fills up water balloons full of BBQ sauce* These will work great on that spiked hellknight armor...


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
tony gent wrote:

If any legal character could put the tarrasque on 0 Hp then there's something wrong with the system

What makes you say that?
Because its supposed to be a challenge for a party of 4, an epic, ultimate show down of titanic proportions, not one shorted in a flurry of feathered fletching.

That's hardly the whole system's fault. Just the monster's.

He can't even fly...


Ravingdork wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
tony gent wrote:

If any legal character could put the tarrasque on 0 Hp then there's something wrong with the system

What makes you say that?
Because its supposed to be a challenge for a party of 4, an epic, ultimate show down of titanic proportions, not one shorted in a flurry of feathered fletching.

That's hardly the whole system's fault. Just the monster's.

He can't even fly...

This is the greatest monster on the planet it has Y hit points.

Your character does 3x Y hit points in one round= there's a problem with the build being too powerful...

Mind you i think the problem is so far above the levels that i play at that it doesn't matter


fictionfan wrote:
The Tarrasque really does not live up to it's hype. It is very possible for single level 13 charaters to defeat it if they go about it smart (I think there was a guide to that somewhere). After it's brought down to 0 all you have to do is keep carving it up and start selling Tarrasque burgers. I think someone made a home brew world where a cities' entire economy was based on the Tarrasque selling it's meat, scale claws and blood.

The stat block for the Tarrasque does not live up to its hype, I'll agree, but the point of the creature is that is just doesn't die. It keeps coming back. It's impossible to put together a stat block for a creature that is supposed to be beatable but not able to be entirely destroyed or sealed. It's the GM's job to make sure that the legend stays true. That's the whole idea.

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