"any way so far this thread has been less than helpful"
Yes it has.
"and I have decided to let it go and fate will grant me an opportunity to strike."
That's pretty cool. To me, that's being a good ninja.
"so please stop posting"
No.
"I have changed my mind apparently it is okay for a paladin to kill starving prisoners but not okay for a CE ninja to be upset about it."
Why do you feel that way?
"can you tell I am pissed off?"
Why are you pissed off?
I was not aware the paladin of torag was like that. I haven't read faiths of purity.
Yeah....Pathfinder Paladins can be surprisingly less pontificating and redeeming and much more stabby than previous incarnations were allowed to be.
Heck, the code of Torag almost sounds like it's just a hair above advocating complete genoicide of anything evil what with the "scatter their families" bit.
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I am real sick of people telling me I am "meta gaming" I am not at all I have explained my actions to the T all in game and with motives and evidence.
it is not reasonable for a CN character to disagree about something for selfish reasons? I was there first I opened the gates maybe I take umbrage with some guy telling me what to do? I am chaotic neutral I do what i want when I want I don't have to have a reason other than I feel like it. maybe I had a moment of pity for those prisoners because being locked up sucks and then to have this giant asshat for a paladin who is supposed to be a good guy just say there evil kill them bothers me a little?
maybe in the future you people could send me a script so I know how to act at all times I would not want to role play in correctly.
in fact in game I said to him I am going to write your superiors he looked me in the eyes and said "go a head they could use a good laugh" and gave me the temple and the head of his order. maybe has a cold blooded killer it offended me to watch beings be killed with out being able to fight back? and I saw my own actions reflected in others?
any way so far this thread has been less than helpful and I have decided to let it go and fate will grant me an opportunity to strike. so please stop posting I have changed my mind apparently it is okay for a paladin to kill starving prisoners but not okay for a CE ninja to be upset about it.
can you tell I am pissed off?
Look, dude, you opened this up to a forum asking for our opinions on the topic. Just because you disagree with our assessment doesn't mean that we are wrong. In my opinion, you're pissed off because you know we're correct, we're not buying into your BS justifications, and you're now reverting into a classic case of emotionally defensive maneuvers.
You're sick of us telling you that you're metagaming because you appear to have no idea what that term actually means. Your supposed motives and evidence, as referenced by your posts, are sketchy at best and a thin veil of cover up to those who've been playing the game for 25-30 years in and out of a DM's role. I've seen it a thousand times, you are nothing special, you only make number 1,001 of players who want to be the spotlight and focus, and no one else's gaming matters to them.
But, go ahead and keep trying to justify it and get angry, then take your ball and go home like the proverbial fat kid. That only proves my case beyond the shadow of a doubt.
In the end, you're going to do what you want and think what you want anyways. Perhaps our wisdom will sink in just a bit and tip you off that you can't do what you want and say what you want in a group scenario and get away with it, just because you thought you chose a class and alignment that justified your poor attitude. But I doubt it.
You never even answered my valid questions, of what alignment the paladin was and what authority you thought you had that he supposedly violated in-game.
Instead, you dug your own grave deeper and started acting and answering more and more childish when we didn't agree with you (Oh, sorry, I mean agree with your Ninja).
Stop hiding behind the words "in-game" and admit the real problem. Then you can yell at us when we call you out on the obvious flaw.
I would have loved to have been "actually helpful" but I have an educated guess and a sneaking suspicion that the only HELP you wanted was for us to agree with your assessment and tell you it was ok and the Paladin is wrong.
Instead, long experience with players of this kind, degrees in Psychology and Sociology, and an extreme lack of tolerance for b%$&#~+! have led me to the belief that your actions were not ok, and that the Paladin was justified in most of what he did.
Take it or leave it. Next time, don't ask if you don't want the truth.
I am real sick of people telling me I am "meta gaming" I am not at all I have explained my actions to the T all in game and with motives and evidence.
it is not reasonable for a CN character to disagree about something for selfish reasons? I was there first I opened the gates maybe I take umbrage with some guy telling me what to do? I am chaotic neutral I do what i want when I want I don't have to have a reason other than I feel like it. maybe I had a moment of pity for those prisoners because being locked up sucks and then to have this giant asshat for a paladin who is supposed to be a good guy just say there evil kill them bothers me a little?
maybe in the future you people could send me a script so I know how to act at all times I would not want to role play in correctly.
in fact in game I said to him I am going to write your superiors he looked me in the eyes and said "go a head they could use a good laugh" and gave me the temple and the head of his order. maybe has a cold blooded killer it offended me to watch beings be killed with out being able to fight back? and I saw my own actions reflected in others?
any way so far this thread has been less than helpful and I have decided to let it go and fate will grant me an opportunity to strike. so please stop posting I have changed my mind apparently it is okay for a paladin to kill starving prisoners but not okay for a CE ninja to be upset about it.
can you tell I am pissed off?
Look, dude, you opened this up to a forum asking for our opinions on the topic. Just because you disagree with our assessment doesn't mean that we are wrong. In my opinion, you're pissed off because you know we're correct, we're not buying into your BS justifications, and you're now reverting into a classic case of emotionally defensive maneuvers.
You're sick of us telling you that you're metagaming because you appear to have no idea what that term actually means. Your supposed motives and evidence, as referenced by your...
I am sorry you did not understand the original intent of my post it was thus:
if I feel like a paladin has violated his code of honor instead of making a big stink at the table. would writing a letter to his church be a good way to deal with it in game. has any body ever don this?
he is lawful good like all paladins?.....I don't understand what you mean by what authority? you may be referring to him telling me what to do? I am self employed. does that help? because calling me fat does not though my quivering man cheeks are stained with tears.
and I was not aware that the paladin of Torag was so hard core. but it should not even matter because my character does not know that.
...I am real sick of people telling me I am "meta gaming" I am not at all I have explained my actions to the T all in game and with motives and evidence.
it is not reasonable for a CN character to disagree about something for selfish reasons? I was there first I opened the gates maybe I take umbrage with some guy telling me what to do? I am chaotic neutral I do what i want when I want I don't have to have a reason other than I feel like it. maybe I had a moment of pity for those prisoners because being locked up sucks and then to have this giant asshat for a paladin who is supposed to be a good guy just say there evil kill them bothers me a little?
maybe in the future you people could send me a script so I know how to act at all times I would not want to role play in correctly.
in fact in game I said to him I am going to write your superiors he looked me in the eyes and said "go a head they could use a good laugh" and gave me the temple and the head of his order. maybe has a cold blooded killer it offended me to watch beings be killed with out being able to fight back? and I saw my own actions reflected in others?
any way so far this thread has been less than helpful and I have decided to let it go and fate will grant me an opportunity to strike. so please stop posting I have changed my mind apparently it is okay for a paladin to kill starving prisoners but not okay for a CE ninja to be upset about it.
can you tell I am pissed off?
Look, dude, you opened this up to a forum asking for our opinions on the topic. Just because you disagree with our assessment doesn't mean that we are wrong. In my opinion, you're pissed off because you know we're correct, we're not buying into your BS justifications, and you're now reverting into a classic case of emotionally defensive maneuvers.
You're sick of us telling you that you're metagaming because you appear to have no idea what that term actually means. Your supposed motives and
There's nothing to do in-game. No "letter", no nothing.
...I am real sick of people telling me I am "meta gaming" I am not at all I have explained my actions to the T all in game and with motives and evidence.
it is not reasonable for a CN character to disagree about something for selfish reasons? I was there first I opened the gates maybe I take umbrage with some guy telling me what to do? I am chaotic neutral I do what i want when I want I don't have to have a reason other than I feel like it. maybe I had a moment of pity for those prisoners because being locked up sucks and then to have this giant asshat for a paladin who is supposed to be a good guy just say there evil kill them bothers me a little?
maybe in the future you people could send me a script so I know how to act at all times I would not want to role play in correctly.
in fact in game I said to him I am going to write your superiors he looked me in the eyes and said "go a head they could use a good laugh" and gave me the temple and the head of his order. maybe has a cold blooded killer it offended me to watch beings be killed with out being able to fight back? and I saw my own actions reflected in others?
any way so far this thread has been less than helpful and I have decided to let it go and fate will grant me an opportunity to strike. so please stop posting I have changed my mind apparently it is okay for a paladin to kill starving prisoners but not okay for a CE ninja to be upset about it.
can you tell I am pissed off?
Look, dude, you opened this up to a forum asking for our opinions on the topic. Just because you disagree with our assessment doesn't mean that we are wrong. In my opinion, you're pissed off because you know we're correct, we're not buying into your BS justifications, and you're now reverting into a classic case of emotionally defensive maneuvers.
You're sick of us telling you that you're metagaming because you appear to have no idea what that term actually means. Your supposed motives and
So, what is your goal? Are you trying to make the paladin fall? Why? Does "in-game" your ninja have a problem with what happened?
Are you, as a player, not happy with the other player's actions? Are you just tring to screw him out of a good time because he's playing a paladin?Writing the church seems like it is a complete waste of time, as it is the deity who judges the character, not the church.
So, what is your goal? Are you trying to make the paladin fall? Why? Does "in-game" your ninja have a problem with what happened?
Are you, as a player, not happy with the other player's actions? Are you just tring to screw him out of a good time because he's playing a paladin?Writing the church seems like it is a complete waste of time, as it is the deity who judges the character, not the church.
Isn't that up to the DM, though? Maybe in his world, the church has more control over things.
...I am real sick of people telling me I am "meta gaming" I am not at all I have explained my actions to the T all in game and with motives and evidence.
it is not reasonable for a CN character to disagree about something for selfish reasons? I was there first I opened the gates maybe I take umbrage with some guy telling me what to do? I am chaotic neutral I do what i want when I want I don't have to have a reason other than I feel like it. maybe I had a moment of pity for those prisoners because being locked up sucks and then to have this giant asshat for a paladin who is supposed to be a good guy just say there evil kill them bothers me a little?
maybe in the future you people could send me a script so I know how to act at all times I would not want to role play in correctly.
in fact in game I said to him I am going to write your superiors he looked me in the eyes and said "go a head they could use a good laugh" and gave me the temple and the head of his order. maybe has a cold blooded killer it offended me to watch beings be killed with out being able to fight back? and I saw my own actions reflected in others?
any way so far this thread has been less than helpful and I have decided to let it go and fate will grant me an opportunity to strike. so please stop posting I have changed my mind apparently it is okay for a paladin to kill starving prisoners but not okay for a CE ninja to be upset about it.
can you tell I am pissed off?
Look, dude, you opened this up to a forum asking for our opinions on the topic. Just because you disagree with our assessment doesn't mean that we are wrong. In my opinion, you're pissed off because you know we're correct, we're not buying into your BS justifications, and you're now reverting into a classic case of emotionally defensive maneuvers.
You're sick of us telling you that you're metagaming because you appear to have no idea what that term actually means.
I am not trying to screw anybody out of anything. it was one suggestion.
I am not understanding where the disconnect is. I feel like i have posted very valid reasons in game for it basically my character holds a grudge about him doign what he does.
any way I have dropped it I have discussed it offline with the player and wehave worked it out it seems the concensus is
a. I am whining like a fat kid
b. the letter is not a good idea it will not accomplish anything
c. paladins of torag are supe hard core lawful good Hitler machines
d. i am not allowed to have a problem with what he did because I am CN and a ninja to boot.
I was not aware the paladin of torag was like that. I haven't read faiths of purity.
You should consider buying the faiths of purity, in fact all of the 3 "faiths" books are very good, i fully recommend them.
Also your character should be aware that paladins of Torag are quite hard core, sure they are mostly known for their strategic prowess but their not so "knightly" behaviour shouldn't be that far down the list. Even Torag a LG deity promotes genocide against very specific races, do you think his paladins would be all huggy-huggy?
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A Paladin of Torag is literally commanded to kill all his enemies with the exception of killing them later if they could be useful for information.
Against my people's enemy I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them and scatter their families.Torag is not a god of mercy, and clearly not to be trifled with.
This shows that if he is a follower of Torag, not only is the Paladin justified at killing these beings (if they are evil), but he is commanded by Torag to do so, and failure to do so could cause him to lose his powers.
Ultimately, it's up to the Paladin's diety (the GM) to decide whether or not this would cause him to fall. If the GM didn't bat an eye at it, you should probably just let it go.
Just a few things I want to point out.
Torag (pronounced TORR-awg)is a stoic and serious god who values honor, planning and well-made steel. He is an often distant deity, lending magical power to his clerics, but leaving his followers to make their own way through life, knowing that this will make them strong and determined.
Torag is opposed to destructive and aggressive deities as a god of protection and creation. He and his followers have battled Rovagug and other destructive forces since the dawn of time. However, despite this opposition to Rovagug, the followers of Sarenrae and Torag are rarely close, following different, almost alien codes of belief. Dwarves do not understand the worship of the sun, and see Sarenrae's willingness to forgive as folly and a sign of weakness. Torag respects Abadar and is friendly with both Cayden Cailean and Iomedae.
Sounds like the complete opposite of what you have described.
@shallowsoul
You are taking a small part of text about Torag and you are giving it too much weight, if you read the full entry of Torag in faiths of purity (which granted says more about the church than the deity) and the entry of Torag in the old gods and magic and the entry of Torag in Shattered Star 2 then you will see that Torag is more hard core than other deities.
You may also find some more info on Torag at dwarves of Golarion but i haven't read that so i am not sure if there is info there.
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@shallowsoul
You are taking a small part of text about Torag and you are giving it too much weight, if you read the full entry of Torag in faiths of purity (which granted says more about the church than the deity) and the entry of Torag in the old gods and magic and the entry of Torag in Shattered Star 2 then you will see that Torag is more hard core than other deities.
You may also find some more info on Torag at dwarves of Golarion but i haven't read that so i am not sure if there is info there.
That is taken straight from the SRD.
Also, I think we need to clarify the difference between no mercy and murder. No mercy is fighting someone on the battlefield and fighting them to the death, even if you end up disarming them. They were there to do you harm.
Half-dead prisoners who had no direct link to you with regards to harming you has nothing to do with mercy, that's just plan murder no matter how you try and spin it and I think a good many of you are taking Torag's entry a bit too free handed.
Torag's dogma does not give you free reign to kill as you please and claim "no mercy".
gptta say I am on the OPs side to a point.
If I was the ninja I would be pissed as well and want some kind of revenge. (note I mean the character not the player)
Wait you mean I can't kill the helpless bad guys, but you can? Hell naw!
I do not think a letter makes much sense, nor would it work well. I do not have the answer as to what you should do however.
As to the CN part of the debate. I do not see why everyone is harping on that. He is Neutral so if he leans a bit towards evil today and a bit toward good tomorrow that seems ok with me. He is Chaotic, that in itself seems to imply that you cannot say with any definition that he HAS to act in any way in any situation, other than he probably chafes at hard and fast rules.
This is why so many players are CN in PFS, it gives you a TON of leeway to do things.
just my 2 cp
@shallowsoul
You are taking a small part of text about Torag and you are giving it too much weight, if you read the full entry of Torag in faiths of purity (which granted says more about the church than the deity) and the entry of Torag in the old gods and magic and the entry of Torag in Shattered Star 2 then you will see that Torag is more hard core than other deities.
You may also find some more info on Torag at dwarves of Golarion but i haven't read that so i am not sure if there is info there.That is taken straight from the SRD.
Also, I think we need to clarify the difference between no mercy and murder. No mercy is fighting someone on the battlefield and fighting them to the death, even if you end up disarming them. They were there to do you harm.
Half-dead prisoners who had no direct link to you with regards to harming you has nothing to do with mercy, that's just plan murder no matter how you try and spin it and I think a good many of you are taking Torag's entry a bit too free handed.
Torag's dogma does not give you free reign to kill as you please and claim "no mercy".
Even if taken straight from the SRD it's still a very small piece of text.
And i will try to end it the issue on whether the paladin was ok or not to kill them.
If the champions of purity says it's ok to kill goblin babies (but also says that it's ok not to kill them) then it's ok to kill members of evil races who registered as evil, which means that they are either priests of evil deities or 5+ HD (meaning capable of inflicting significant evil to the world)
People seem to be confusing "neutral" with "jerks that never give a damn" which misses the point. Neutral characters have ethics, particularly for extreme acts. They lack the extra devotion to say work to crusade for change, and may occaisonally deviate themselves, but they do entirely not care about something that doesn't happen right in front of them.
Most people IRL are Neutral.
A CN character could well be worried about what that sanctimonious murderer will decide is "evil" next and slaughter out of hand, it might be the CN character for daring to say enjoy music, taverns, and romantic adventures out of wedlock.
Better still *because* they are neutral they also probably lack any extra ethics to speak against taking some petty vengeance in lieu of their feelings.
That is taken straight from the SRD.
Also, I think we need to clarify the difference between no mercy and murder. No mercy is fighting someone on the battlefield and fighting them to the death, even if you end up disarming them. They were there to do you harm.
Half-dead prisoners who had no direct link to you with regards to harming you has nothing to do with mercy, that's just plan murder no matter how you try and spin it and I think a good many of you are taking Torag's entry a bit too free handed.
Torag's dogma does not give you free reign to kill as you please and claim "no mercy".
SRD is a less complete source than Faiths of Purity or Dwarves of Golarion in describing how Torag's faithful should act. It does not give free reign to kill anyone and say no mercy. It does however, give free reign to kill anyone who is evil, and lets ignore people who could detect as evil but actually be of non-evil alignment.
Is this a dwarven paladin?
I haven't read the thread yet (only the first two posts), but it seems like your scenario is the opposite of this one, except the paladin falls for not killing them:
After dropping off Mr. Bad Guy in the prison, we suddenly get visited in the middle of the town by a solar. A solar specifically asking for my paladin. Now I'm thinking "Gee, we must be going on some crazy quest so this'll be a huge honor!" Nope. Turns out that my paladin was being punished for allow evil to live on and propagate, trusting a (what the angel called) corrupt justice system to mete out justice instead of slaughtering them on the spot. He even said "My mercy will be my undoing" and took me and my compatriots to Heaven, where we spent a whole session in some kangaroo court trying in vain to prove my innocence. I was found guilty of aiding evil and not seeing the "big picture" and my paladin was sent to hell to be tortured for all eternity. The End. Don't Pass Go, Don't Collect $200.
I am not trying to screw anybody out of anything. it was one suggestion.
I am not understanding where the disconnect is. I feel like i have posted very valid reasons in game for it basically my character holds a grudge about him doing what he does.
any way I have dropped it I have discussed it offline with the player and we have worked it out it seems the consensus is
a. I am whining like a fat kid
b. the letter is not a good idea it will not accomplish anything
c. paladins of Torag are super hard core lawful good Hitler machines
d. i am not allowed to have a problem with what he did because I am CN and a ninja to boot.
I think where most of us are coming from is that you are trying too hard to justify what you think is right personally by putting it into the game itself. It just doesn't seem you are coming at it from a CN standpoint of what would happen if it was your character doing it instead of you. So you aren't separating the two personalities out well enough between you and your character.
It also seems as if you have a different view of how a LG Paladin of Torag would react in certain situations. So you take your personal point of view on how you think that Paladin should be played and attempt to punish that other Player's character by tattling on him to his church without actually understanding the code of that Paladin's deity. The suggestion of reading up on Torag in the other Paizo materials has been tossed out there so that you better understand that particular deity.
Most of us, if we played a CN Ninja, wouldn't be phased by what the paladin did as that would be between him and his higher powers, the ninja shouldn't be involved here. If your GM has a problem or interprets how the alignment system works and how the other player is playing his paladin that should specifically be between them and you shouldn't be involved in this either.
I think we have all answered your question about the contacting of his church leaders to tell them of his transgressions and most of us feel this is out of character for what a CN ninja would do. Most of us feel that it's passive aggressive on your part and that you are actually meta-gaming this to try to get the paladin to play the way YOU want him to be played. I'm not trying to be insulting here, just straight forward with you with how you have explained things. A lot can be lost in text on these forums, so I'm just trying to offer constructive criticism.
Honestly, I believe this should all just be worked out in your game between you, the player of the paladin, the rest of your party, and the GM. Come to a consensus on how you will deal with alignment issues of your characters and go forward from there. The aim is to have fun and enjoy the hobby not to fight about the little things and back-stab each other in the game.
How about this...You play the game and hide your distain. After all, thats what ninjas do best...divorce themselves from emotions and finish the job. When the paladin gets himself into another situation like the 30+ mobs, you pop vanishing trick and watch them swarm him.
Your job is to do what YOUR character wants, not to keep him alive through whatever idiot meatgrinders that he decides he wants to drop the group into. Being a ninja, you have the most ability of any class to just step back and....disappear.
Sounds like the guys a loose cannon. No problem. Loose cannons wind up putting themselves in positions soon enough anyway that they cant get out of.
Just make sure to re-appear long enough to give him a wink before that NPC offs him for his stupidity.
Or wait til he is near death and out of LOHs...it takes one well placed throwing dagger from the shadows to do him in. When the party finds him...well, it was just his time.
Remember, you do not have to sit idle on your hands while some guy railroads your enjoyment. Every action has a reaction. Just because hes a PC doesnt give him open license to manipulate and decide your characters actions or situations.
Remember that line from Predator when Mack says to the guy that played Apollo in Rocky after he slipped down in the forest "You're ghostin us Motherf*cker....I dont care who you are back in the real world. Give our position away one more time and I'll bleed you...real quiet like...leave you here. Got that?"
Being the CG barbarian mentioned in the OP as also objecting to the paladin's actions in this scene I'll throw in my side of the story.
Balto (the barbarian) objected to the killing of the prisoners both because of his "good" nature and because, chaotic as he is, there is even a line he won't cross - and killing helpless creatures who haven't shown any hostility to him or his own is that line.
I don't see that the ninja's attitude was out line for the same reason ("I may be a deadly ninja assassin, but even I have my limits!") I don't think anything about that contradicts his alignment.
I also had some metagame reasons for objecting. The first is, throughout this particular module, our party's tendency to attack first and ask questions later has been costing us dearly. The second is the whole situation was like a bad flashback to my 1st edition years where bloody literal-minded DMs would insist we had to play chaotic characters as acting randomly, druids had to balance out every good deed with an evil one, paladins were lawful stupid, etc.
We did argue the points, the three of us, in character. With the ninja and Balto pointing out that killing helpless individuals was the antithesis of 'good' and doing so without any due process or even evidence they'd committed 'evil' acts was the opposite of 'lawful'.
We did not prevail. The paladin reasoned that they (three morlocks and a drow) detected evil, they would perform evil acts if released, and it was therefore his duty to slay them (though he offered to do it in combat if we wanted to give them weapons; since it hardly could have been a fair fight, we didn't bite).
We backed down instead. I can't speak for the ninja, but Balto decided the consequences were on the head of the paladin and walked away.
In the end, the drow was spared because he bargained with the paladin - his life for information (so in fact, we, the party, finally have an inkling of what is going on in the module). The morlocks were killed out of hand without even being given the opportunity to save themselves with information.
Therein is my problem with the paladin's actions for in-game reason. The drow was no less evil for giving the information to us than he would have been if he hadn't. But the pragmatic reason of giving us information spared his life where simple mercy would not have moved the paladin otherwise. Nor did mercy move the paladin to extend the offer of life for information to the others. The quality that we might consider 'good' was wholly absent from the paladin's reasoning.
Now you might argue they detected evil - a quality that the paladin was sworn to destroy - mercy does not extend to the irredeemably wicked. By the same argument then, we should bring all the town's babies before Torag and slaughter those whose aura is tinged with evil.
Therefore, my friends, I submit to you that Torag is not the god you think he is. He is neither lawful nor good if his dictates oblige the paladin to slay the defenseless who have done no discernible harm.
"[Mercy] blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
'T is mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway,
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself; "
You don't understand how detect evil works, unless the babies were priests of an evil deity or were 5+ HD then they wouldn't register as evil.
That being said i (as i said before) think that giving them weapons and slaying them in combat should be done and it's more honorable.
I don't agree with letting the drow leave, at least unchecked, if you really wanted to honor your agreement with him and let him go after giving you information at least place a geas or mark of justice on him in order to stop him from doing harm.
Also if you want information just use speak with dead on the corpse.
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Is the problem the actions, or that "a paladin" did these actions?
If this character weren't a Paladin, how would you handle the situation?
It is always good hearing another perspective and adding getting a more full picture. However, I still think there is a lot of meta-game bleeding into the game here with the OP.
General disclaimer: Anything I say regarding alignment should be qualified as "generally". There are a lot of ways to play each alignment, however there are buckets that most often chaotic aligned characters will fit in. In addition, when I speak of the CN ninja, I will usually be talking about how I would play him, but everyone is entitled to their own interpretations.
With the situation, the paladin's argument for killing was somewhat valid, depending on the type of paladin he is (some are smite-happy, some are redeem-happy, etc). Your protests were valid as well, but in the end it is the GM and the paladin player who determine what will cause a loss of powers. I'm going to set aside all the paladin alignment questions for now, and assume that Detect Evil was played perfectly fine, and Torag deemed it perfectly acceptable to kill those prisoners. What confuses me is the CN ninja's reaction to all this.
Now, if the ninja expects paladins to be redeemers, and this one clearly is not, then obviously he should be curious and perhaps a bit concerned by this revelation. He also can be legitimately upset about the fact that potentially valuable sources of information were killed, and be upset with the treatment of prisoners, having a past as a criminal. However, how he confronted the paladin does not seem very chaotic to me.
Saying "I'm going to write you up to your superiors!" . . . . that just seems like something a lawful person would do. A lawful person would want to work within the system to see that justice was done. Chaotic folks generally don't put much stock in hierarchical organizations like the paladin's order surely would be, so I find it odd that one would threaten to do so. When the paladin said "Sure, here is where you can send it", it was really more of a "I'm calling your bluff, you have no standing, plus my god seems to be on my side". While the paladin may have been a bit arrogant in his rejection of your input, why should he, or any of the organization, care what you think? He still has his god's blessing, why should he listen to a former criminal over Torag? Expecting the paladin to be fazed by "I'm gonna tell on you!" is very silly.
The question is whether there should be lasting animosity. From what has been stated in this thread, there should be a helping of disdain (for lack of a better term) due to their stylistic differences (stealth and cunning versus loud plate and honor). There should also be some caution as what the paladin did was really harsh. From what has been described by the OP, nothing really here that would warrant a CN ninja completely not helping the paladin in combat anymore. I believe the OP also said at some point his character was upset the paladin didn't respect his authority, and had a holier than though attitude. For the former, as a chaotic character, the ninja probably doesn't respect authority, so expecting another character to respect his authority is hypocritical. For the latter, yeah . . . that's a danger of playing a class that most of the time is holier than though. This would surely grate on the CN ninja, which would, in my mind, shift the slaying of helpless prisoners to be more of a "so, you aren't as wonderful as you seem to think you are".
A bit more about Torag...
One of Torag's tenets is that against his people's enemies he shows no mercy, he doesn't allow their surrender except to gain information. He will even scatter their families...
So based on this part, I personally believe that the Player who runs the Paladin worked it perfectly with the Morlocks and the Drow. The drow surrendered and he got the group some valuable information. Morlocks on the other hand are evil evil evil beasts that wouldn't try to surrender, they just want to frickin eat you. This means they need to die. The Paladin is absolutely spot on here. Read the spoiler below about Morlocks...
Degenerate humans long lost from the world of light, morlocks have regressed through years of subterranean dwelling into ravenous, barely thinking beasts of the endless night. They no longer remember the civilized lives their ancestors led, although many morlock tribes still dwell in the shattered ruins of their ancient homes. Ironically, in many cases morlocks worship the statues left behind by these ancestors as their gods. Morlock priests of such ancestor worship have access to the domains of Darkness, Earth, Madness, and Strength. A typical morlock stands just over 5 feet tall and weighs roughly 150 pounds.
Morlocks move about on two legs at times, but often drop down to a creepy four-limbed shuffle when speed or stealth is necessary. Their wiry, often emaciated frames mask the strength of their limbs and their swift reactions.
Morlocks typically give birth to broods of three to four babies at a time, ravenous creatures born with a full set of teeth and a cannibalistic predisposition. The first few weeks of a brood's life must be carefully mothered to prevent attrition—it usually takes that long for the morlock young to overcome their natural inclination to feed on whatever is closest. Morlocks mature quickly, achieving adulthood after only 5 years of life. A typical morlock can live to a ripe old age of 60—although the majority of their kind die far sooner than that due to violence.
Actions determine alignment, not the other way around. A CN character can act however the player desires; he may be on his way to an alignment shift in the process.
Classes do not come with baked-in personalities. The fact that he is a ninja is irrelevant.
I have to agree there. It really bugs me that so many people seem to think that alignment is some kind straitjacket that dictates every single aspect of your character's personality, and any deviation from the Nine True Personalities is badwrongfun that must be punished by the gaming gods. It leads to incredibly boring and one-dimensional characters.
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my character is a ninja but even he has rules and has been in jail has part of his back story.
And here we see the problem. If your Ninja has a set of rules, or a code, that he won't break, then he isn't CN, he's Lawful.
I think that the root of the problem is (as the barbarian's player told us) that the paladin's actions bring harm (or at least uneccesary trouble) to the group.
Can we get a clarification and some more info on that?
I just finished a similar scenario. After subdueing a circle of evil Druids, I took the liberty of dispatching them. I acted as judge and executioner. The area had no means to hold the prisoners, and we couldn't risk them causing more trouble. So I executed them. I have a speech and felt sorry for it, but it had to be done. I was able to subdue and capture a few other baddies though, and I always use blade of mercy in combat, but this time I just couldn't allow them to go.
my character is a ninja but even he has rules and has been in jail has part of his back story.And here we see the problem. If your Ninja has a set of rules, or a code, that he won't break, then he isn't CN, he's Lawful.
I think it depends on what the OP means be 'rules' really. If he's got a strictly defined code he doesn't deviate from, then I'd agree he's lawful.
However, if it's something more like the Pirate's Code, where they're really more like open-ended guidelines than iron-clad rules, then that's a different matter. I could certainly see a Chaotic-aligned character saying along the lines of: "I don't really like killing unarmed prisoners. Well, unless they deserve it. Or they piss me off. Or there's a woman involved. Or I'm getting paid."
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People, people, people! Let's all get serious for a moment. They were evil. EVIL. With a capital... uh... ev. And all the other letters.
To define evil:
Evil: Noun. EE-vuhl. 1) Not good! 2) Usually not lawful! 3) That creepy sensation that pings when you're detecting it, letting you know that it deserves to die! 4) That thing that gets hurt more when you yell about smiting it! 5) That thing that you hate, remember? 6) EEEEVILLLLL
Now, folks, I can safely say that I hate evil as much as the next guy, and I know how corrupting it can be. After all, what if they were faking being weak prisoners? What if it was really a Demon Lord in disguise? Huh? Huh? Huh?
I'm not ashamed to say that I've smote my fair share of children, women, and the helpless because they were evil (and only my share, because any more would be unlawful and break my code). EVIL NEVER RESTS, compatriots, and neither do true paladins when it comes to destroying it.
The only thing I see wrong here is that the paladin in question used an elemental to perpetrate the act, rather than charging and doing it himself. That was cowardly and obviously grounds for falling; I will be contacting my friends in high places forthwith to assure that he doesn't keep his fancy paladin powers.
Look, when in doubt, remember these three rules.
1) Always detect evil on EVERYTHING and EVERYONE you meet. Never know where evil might be lurking!
2) If it's evil, SMITE IT. Don't ask yourself if you should, or if it's socially appropriate, or if you've got the right weapon on hand; I don't care if you're down on one knee and suddenly have to smite your fiancee's mother with the engagement ring itself, SMITE THAT EVIL BEING.
3) If it doesn't die when you smite it, KEEP SMITING, and when you run out of smites, KEEP FIGHTING. Retreat means falling, remember. Also, ranged attacks of any sort. In fact, even reach melee weapons or a big sword could be considered cowardly, so maybe that ring isn't a bad plan.
*Runs off to put newborn tieflings to the sword to prevent future evil*
Is the problem the actions, or that "a paladin" did these actions?
If this character weren't a Paladin, how would you handle the situation?
As my character, the actions themselves were the problem and it wouldn't have mattered if it had been any other member of the party had proposed killing the prisoner.
As a player, it is not how I see a paladin acting for the reasons I outlined above. But I'm the player and not the GM, so I'll leave that be.
My character's reaction is to keep a wary eye on the paladin. He'd write a sternly-worded letter to the proper authorities, but he's a) a barbarian and illiterate and b) an awakened dog and can't hold a pencil.
I'll pee in his boots when he's not looking.
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I have had an offline conversation with the player and we resolved any personal conflict.
Is there a question in there or is this just venting?
As a player, it's not your call to say whether the Paladin is playing correctly or not. That's the GMs job. And as GM, the GM should warn the Paladin before performing the action and if he continues, he suffers the results of that action.
Think about it for a second. PF isn't wishy washy about alignment. Evil is EVIL in PF. If I found a mass murderer in a prison cell, if I let him go he will probably go on to kill more people. That blood is on my hands. And some of you think I should offer redemption to this evil guy and let him go? I don't think so.
A smart(er) Paladin would probably keep them around to see if they have any redeeming value, but that can also backfire. Letting them go in the underdark could be fatal (and stupid), especially if they get their friends and hunt you down. It is their domain after all.
If I was GMing, I would not have a problem with that paladins actions, as long as he is consistent. Killing them is probably the best idea given the circumstances. Leaving them there until they return is perhaps more merciful.
In my mind he is no better than me.
If he's being as "bad" as you, why do you care?
As teammates, your job is persuade him in cases like this, in character. That makes for good roleplaying, as opposed to bad out-of-game complaining. If he doesn't listen to anyone and it builds up, kick him from the party. Hopefully you guys have enough backstory that he'll listen to someone.
I haven't read the thread yet (only the first two posts), but it seems like your scenario is the opposite of this one, except the paladin falls for not killing them:
After dropping off Mr. Bad Guy in the prison, we suddenly get visited in the middle of the town by a solar. A solar specifically asking for my paladin. Now I'm thinking "Gee, we must be going on some crazy quest so this'll be a huge honor!" Nope. Turns out that my paladin was being punished for allow evil to live on and propagate, trusting a (what the angel called) corrupt justice system to mete out justice instead of slaughtering them on the spot. He even said "My mercy will be my undoing" and took me and my compatriots to Heaven, where we spent a whole session in some kangaroo court trying in vain to prove my innocence. I was found guilty of aiding evil and not seeing the "big picture" and my paladin was sent to hell to be tortured for all eternity. The End. Don't Pass Go, Don't Collect $200.Link
I hear my ears ringing. Somebody summoned me?
Is the problem the actions, or that "a paladin" did these actions?
If this character weren't a Paladin, how would you handle the situation?
As my character, the actions themselves were the problem and it wouldn't have mattered if it had been any other member of the party had proposed killing the prisoner.
As a player, it is not how I see a paladin acting for the reasons I outlined above. But I'm the player and not the GM, so I'll leave that be.
My character's reaction is to keep a wary eye on the paladin. He'd write a sternly-worded letter to the proper authorities, but he's a) a barbarian and illiterate and b) an awakened dog and can't hold a pencil.
I'll pee in his boots when he's not looking.
I'm not familiar with your campaign so who are these authorities? What exactly can they do? Usually the only authority is the god, and he's clearly cool with it. Doesn't that PROVE the paladin acted as the paladin should? That doesn't mean what he did was nice, but then it doesn't have to be.
He'd write a sternly-worded letter to the proper authorities, but he's a) a barbarian and illiterate and b) an awakened dog and can't hold a pencil.
I'll pee in his boots when he's not looking.
I'm not familiar with your campaign so who are these authorities? What exactly can they do? Usually the only authority is the god, and he's clearly cool with it. Doesn't that PROVE the paladin acted as the paladin should? That doesn't mean what he did was nice, but then it doesn't have to be.
It does appear impossible to make a joke around here.
He'd write a sternly-worded letter to the proper authorities, but he's a) a barbarian and illiterate and b) an awakened dog and can't hold a pencil.
I'll pee in his boots when he's not looking.
I'm not familiar with your campaign so who are these authorities? What exactly can they do? Usually the only authority is the god, and he's clearly cool with it. Doesn't that PROVE the paladin acted as the paladin should? That doesn't mean what he did was nice, but then it doesn't have to be.It does appear impossible to make a joke around here.
Har dee ha ha?
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A bit more about Torag...
** spoiler omitted **
So based on this part, I personally believe that the Player who runs the Paladin worked it perfectly with the Morlocks and the Drow. The drow surrendered and he got the group some valuable information. Morlocks on the other hand are evil evil evil beasts that wouldn't try to surrender, they just want to frickin eat you. This means they need to die. The Paladin is absolutely spot on here. Read the spoiler below about Morlocks...
** spoiler omitted **...
You need to brush up on your history of Torag to be honest. Having no mercy is not the same as murder. Having an opponent surrender during battle is one thing but killing slaves is another. I own both Faiths of Purity and Dwarves Golarion and neither one mentions any of the above when it comes to Torag's dogma. All it mentions is finding mercy weak but that is mo excuse for murder.
Please go and read more before you spread more untruths.
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I have had an offline conversation with the player and we resolved any personal conflict.Is there a question in there or is this just venting?
As a player, it's not your call to say whether the Paladin is playing correctly or not. That's the GMs job. And as GM, the GM should warn the Paladin before performing the action and if he continues, he suffers the results of that action.
Think about it for a second. PF isn't wishy washy about alignment. Evil is EVIL in PF. If I found a mass murderer in a prison cell, if I let him go he will probably go on to kill more people. That blood is on my hands. And some of you think I should offer redemption to this evil guy and let him go? I don't think so.
A smart(er) Paladin would probably keep them around to see if they have any redeeming value, but that can also backfire. Letting them go in the underdark could be fatal (and stupid), especially if they get their friends and hunt you down. It is their domain after all.
If I was GMing, I would not have a problem with that paladins actions, as long as he is consistent. Killing them is probably the best idea given the circumstances. Leaving them there until they return is perhaps more merciful.
In my mind he is no better than me.If he's being as "bad" as you, why do you care?
As teammates, your job is persuade him in cases like this, in character. That makes for good roleplaying, as opposed to bad out-of-game complaining. If he doesn't listen to anyone and it builds up, kick him from the party. Hopefully you guys have enough backstory that he'll listen to someone.
How did you know he was a mass murderer?
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...I am real sick of people telling me I am "meta gaming" I am not at all I have explained my actions to the T all in game and with motives and evidence.
it is not reasonable for a CN character to disagree about something for selfish reasons? I was there first I opened the gates maybe I take umbrage with some guy telling me what to do? I am chaotic neutral I do what i want when I want I don't have to have a reason other than I feel like it. maybe I had a moment of pity for those prisoners because being locked up sucks and then to have this giant asshat for a paladin who is supposed to be a good guy just say there evil kill them bothers me a little?
maybe in the future you people could send me a script so I know how to act at all times I would not want to role play in correctly.
in fact in game I said to him I am going to write your superiors he looked me in the eyes and said "go a head they could use a good laugh" and gave me the temple and the head of his order. maybe has a cold blooded killer it offended me to watch beings be killed with out being able to fight back? and I saw my own actions reflected in others?
any way so far this thread has been less than helpful and I have decided to let it go and fate will grant me an opportunity to strike. so please stop posting I have changed my mind apparently it is okay for a paladin to kill starving prisoners but not okay for a CE ninja to be upset about it.
can you tell I am pissed off?
Look, dude, you opened this up to a forum asking for our opinions on the topic. Just because you disagree with our assessment doesn't mean that we are wrong. In my opinion, you're pissed off because you know we're correct, we're not buying into your BS justifications, and you're now reverting into a classic case of emotionally defensive maneuvers.
You're sick of us telling you that you're metagaming because you appear to have no
Clerics of Torag are not Hitler type clerics. If you read Faiths of Purity, the SRD and Dwarves of Golarion it talks about them having honor. There is no honor in killing prisoners and I just want to point out again that believing another deity's vision of mercy is weak is not a free ticket to murder. Showing no mercy when engaged in combat is not the same thing as killing prisoners. In the least, and I mean in the least, a servant of Torag would hand them a weapon a prepare to defend themselves.
Please don't take on board what you have been hearing about Torag from the others until you have a good read.
Please don't take on board what you have been hearing about anything from the others until you have a good read.
This is really good advice, I amended it a little bit for application, and reposted. Core tenet for any player or GM.
As for the OP, really two issues here.
1: How your character (not player) would feel in that situation. Maybe put out, because he either didn't want to see the slaves/captives killed or he wanted to do it himself in his own way. Maybe he thought of the Paladin in a different light, as a goodie-goodie who was all high horse, only to reveal a rather grim nature under it all. Maybe complete indifference. Who knows but you how your character reacts. The only rule that applies is keeping player knowledge and character feelings separate. Which leads into...
2: Knowing how a Paladin should play vice how this one is playing. A Paladin's Code of Conduct is usually only intimately known by Paladins and clerics of their particular order, the basics of that code by Paladins and clerics of other orders of similiar alignment, the gist of that code by other religious members, usually the neutral and evil clerics, and everyone else just knows that Paladins are champions of their faiths, usually morally good. The ninja might have thought the Paladin was better than that, and would roleplay accordingly, but refer to #1 on how he approach the Paladin.
As for "dealing" with the Paladin, PVP is always an option, though I highly advise against this, as players tend to take such assaults personally, and the slain PCs player is likely to retaliate with his new character despite, in-game, this new PC knowing nothing about the other. I would leave the "dealing with" up to the GM. Its a perfectly allowable situation to remark to the GM when something doesn't seem to jive with the rules, and see how the GM reacts. Some GMs just doesn't want to hold the game up for an event that took 5 minutes and then never reoccurs. If its a continual trend, this "Paladin" slaughtering and pillaging anything that detects as evil, then the GM should declare the Pally "fallen". Calling someone out takes a bit of tact, but overlooking a character aspect as serious as a Paladin's CoC changes the class. Paladin comes with the CoC for a reason, and the player should adhere to it. If the GM decides genocide, even of slaves and captives, then its legit.