Thornkeep deadly denizen... [Spoilers]

[Kanebaenre]

Tomorrow I'm going to run The Accursed Halls and I have a doubt.

In a room, there is a Wight. If he hits a Level 1 PC... The PC is dead by Energy Drain. BAMF! There is another Wight (less powerful) in 1d4 rounds...

Am I correct?

[warfteiner]

It's brutal, but yes. Thankfully there's a save for it though.

When I ran this for my players I encouraged them at several times throughout the adventure to make knowledge checks. Some of my players were very new (having played 10 or fewer Pathfinder games total), and when they got to the room you are speaking about they were frightened but managed to get the mage to do her thing... which ended just as you'd think it would ;)

[graypark]

I thought the wight's energy drain automatically bestowed a negative level on a successful hit; the saving throw was to remove the negative level after 24 hours. Or am I mistaken?

[Eric Clingenpeel]

Sorry Warfteiner, but graypark is correct. The save listed is for getting rid of the negative level 24 hours after you gain it. There is no save when the wight hits you.

Spoiler:

Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature's description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

Format: energy drain (2 levels, DC 18); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks.

[graypark]

If it's any consolation, the wight never succeeded in hitting any PCs before being dispatched at my table when I ran "The Accursed Halls."

However:

The shadow was particularly nasty and troublesome.

[Chris Mortika]

Graypark, that seems typical, although letting either critter get into the room with the statue makes for an uglier fight.

[Thamius]

Because the Energy Drain text says that the negative level becomes permanent only if the character fails the Fortitude save 24 hours later, I treat it as a temporary negative level for the first 24 hours, thus a first level character is not auto-dead.

Interesting question, if the party completes the dungeon level straight through after that (i.e. without leaving to heal up and return the next day), does the character level up before attempting his Fort save? If he fails then he'd just be a second level character with one permanent negative level, which he can later remove for 4 PP or 1280 gp.

Edit: The text for Energy Drain and Negative Levels in the Core Rulebook states: If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

I think for new players I'll still treat it as a temporary negative level (-1 penalties to ability checks, attack rolls, CMB, CMD, saving throws, and skill checks) because auto-dying is the opposite of fun, but experienced players are another matter.

[warfteiner]

ack, you're right. the joy of recounting adventures from memory

[Eric Clingenpeel]

For new players, I always ask for knowledge checks as soon as they see a creature. In cases like Wights, the first thing I tell them is the energy drain. Other creatures I'll inform them of the deadliest thing that they need to be careful of.

I also try not to target new players unless they rush in ahead of everyone else. I've run AH three times now, never had a single death (though its been quite close many times each game.

[Kanebaenre]

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

For new players, I always ask for knowledge checks as soon as they see a creature. In cases like Wights, the first thing I tell them is the energy drain. Other creatures I'll inform them of the deadliest thing that they need to be careful of.

I also try not to target new players unless they rush in ahead of everyone else.

I'm going to do this. It's a good plan.

[Seraphimpunk]

Don't forget the shadow. Kill one pc there too, name you got another shadow in a few rounds.

The wight at least gives the player something to control, in nerfed form, until the main weight dies. Especially fun if their religious sage dies and they don't know their buddy is about to come back.

[kinevon]

Any advice on how to handle the CR 5 encounter?

With the bugs' jump charge ability, they are deadly even on a surprise round charge. :(

Last time I ran it, the wight was killed before he could hit anyone. The Shadow got a hit off, but went down fast, too.

Potions of Bless Weapon, and spells that can affect undead, and, of course, the Cleric channeling positive to harm undead...

[Mike Lindner]

kinevon wrote:

Any advice on how to handle the CR 5 encounter?

With the bugs' jump charge ability, they are deadly even on a surprise round charge. :(

Last time I ran it, the wight was killed before he could hit anyone. The Shadow got a hit off, but went down fast, too.

Potions of Bless Weapon, and spells that can affect undead, and, of course, the Cleric channeling positive to harm undead...

The bugs start on the ceiling, thus negating their ability to charge. Allowing them to charge makes this far too deadly IMO. I assume that's the reason for putting them on the ceiling.

[Chris Mortika]

I thought it was to give the players a sphincteriffic scare when you drop the bug miniature right behind the archer.

[Rusty Ironpants]

Mike Lindner wrote:

The bugs start on the ceiling, thus negating their ability to charge. Allowing them to charge makes this far too deadly IMO. I assume that's the reason for putting them on the ceiling.

How would starting on the ceiling negate their ability to charge, given that it is a jump move?

[Mike Lindner]

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

Mike Lindner wrote:

The bugs start on the ceiling, thus negating their ability to charge. Allowing them to charge makes this far too deadly IMO. I assume that's the reason for putting them on the ceiling.

How would starting on the ceiling negate their ability to charge, given that it is a jump move?

The reasoning I used when I ran this (after backing up combat because using the falling charge would have been a TPK for sure) is that charging is a full round action involving moving towards the target and that doesn't exactly jive with just letting go of the ceiling and letting gravity do its thing.

Then I came up with a better argument: charging requires you to go to the nearest square where you can attack the target. If the bug is falling it is necessarily going to end up past the nearest square, since the nearest square would leave 5' between the bug and the ground. Trying to get around that by saying it is charging to the nearest square, then simply falling the remainder smells of arguing within the rules to defeat the rules - rather than using the rules in a way that keeps with common sense, that is, where you end up is where you charged to, and if that isn't valid space for a charge then you can't do it.

There's also the fact that, as I recall, the ceiling is more than 10' up, and so simply dropping to the ground means they have to make an acrobatics check to avoid falling damage and landing prone. Why do that when you have a climb speed and can just climb down the wall and attack that way?

[Jacob Saltband]

Deadly Thornkeep monster?

Enigma vault's Visitant. Read this nasty carefully befoe your PC encounter it.

[Sir_Wulf]

Jacob Saltband wrote:

Deadly Thornkeep monster?

The Enigma Vault's Visitant. Read this nasty carefully before your PCs encounter it.

Very true. When I first ran this, the first PC encountering the Visitant immediately turned and fled, encouraging the others to flee the level with him.

They were wise. When I've run the Enigma Vaults, that horror has reduced every group that stood against it to a tattered shambles.

[Jacob Saltband]

James MacKenzie wrote:

Jacob Saltband wrote:

Deadly Thornkeep monster?

The Enigma Vault's Visitant. Read this nasty carefully before your PCs encounter it.

Very true. When I first ran this, the first PC encountering the Visitant immediately turned and fled, encouraging the others to flee the level with him.

They were wise. When I've run the Enigma Vaults, that horror has reduced every group that stood against it to a tattered shambles.

I don't think a party of 7 3rd levels could defeat this thing.