| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Basically this thread is to gather a bit of data as far as how all the martial classes hold up to each other. By the end of this thread it might be neat to see each person doing a build for each of the 4 main martial classes (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin) to hopefully stem any "Well you're just better at building characters!" arguments
The rules are as follows:
Human only, for simplicity's sake and to give everyone even ground.
20 point buy.
2 Traits.
All official Paizo books are fair game. Archetypes, Feats, whatever you can find for these 4 characters.
Builds start at 1st level, and if the consensus is that yes, it is comparable to a 1st level character of the other classes, level him up to 3rd. Repeat for levels 6 and 10. Tiebreakers will be level 15 and 20.
If a character is deemed unfit at any level, participants may rebuild at that level, but may not go on to the next until it is considered on par with the others.
Only discuss the builds on their own merits and in comparison to other builds posted. If you have something to say about a build posted that isn't constructive criticism on how to possibly make it better, then you'd better make a better build to present.
Also, for the sake of (more) simplicity, it will probably be easier to compare like to like as far as builds go. So say, everyone builds a 2H fighter 1st, or an Archer, or TWFer to head off any confusion over whether it is the class or build/fighting style making one better than the other.
Thassabout all I got for now. If you have any other rules you think I overlooked/should be added, feel free to suggest before we begin.
|
Here is my archer build.
“Flightmoon” 1st level Human Fighter.
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Traits: Eyes and Ears of the City, Latent Psion (Alternative: Bandit (Stealth)
AC: 16
Flat: 12
Touch: 14
Init: + 4
Spd: 30ft
HP: 1d10 + 1
Fort: + 3
Ref: + 4
Will: + 1 (+ 3 vs Mind effects)
Attack: composite longbow (Str + 1): + 4 1d8 + 1 / 1d8 + 1 x3 (While using Rapid Shot).
Normal: + 5 1d8 + 1 x 3
If within 30 ft + 5 1d8 + 2 / 1d8 + 2
Longsword: + 3 1d8 + 2 19-20 x2
Feats(3): Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Skills: Climb: + 6, Knowledge Dungeoneering:, + 6, Ride: + 8, Survival: + 5, Perception: + 6,
Gear (300gp): (str +1) composite longbow, longsword, leather armor
|
Jan Eric, First Level Fighter
Str: 18 (16+2) 10 Pts
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 10
AC: 16
Flat: 12
Touch: 12
CMB = +5
CMD = 16
Init: + 4
Spd: 30ft
HP: 14 (10+1 con +3 Toughness)
Fort: + 3
Ref: + 3
Will: + 1
Attack:
Greataxe: + 5 1d10 + 9 (always furious focus) 19-20 x2
Shortbow: + 3 1d6
Feats(3): Power Attack, Furious Focus, Toughness
Traits: Reactionary (+2 init) and Deft Dodger (+1 reflex)
Skills (4 [2 Fighter, 1 Human, 1 Favored): Climb: 1 Rank (8-2 = 6), Knowledge Dungeoneering:,0, Ride: 1 Rank (4), Survival: 1 Rank (5), Perception: 1 Rank (+5),
Gear (175gp): Chain Shirt (100), Greataxe (50 gp), Shortbow, Pathfinder Kit 12 Gp, arrows (1 gp) 12 pg misc.
So I hit pretty well in melee, and I can afford a backup ranged weapon and a Chain Shirt and two weapons thanks to the high starting gold. I will need to address my will saves at 3rd level or so, but for now I'm pretty much with everyone else.
A Barb will out damage me when raging with the same feat choices, but will lose AC and not be able to do that very often. And they don't have the starting gold for the armor and two quality weapons.
I may do a monk next. Even I won't try a rogue, but I would love to see what someone else can do. Let me know if this is "good enough" and I'll level it up.
|
|
Ira Monk 1st Level Human [Dual Talent] Monk
Str: 18
Dex: 13
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 16 [14+2]
Cha: 10
AC: 15 (1 Dex, 3 Wis, 1 Dodge)
Flat: 15
Touch: 15
CMB = +4
CMD = 15
Init: + 3
Spd: 30ft
HP: 12 (8+1 con +3 Toughness)
Fort: + 3
Ref: + 3
Will: + 5
Attack:
Unarmed: + 4 1d6 + 4
Flurry: +3/+3 1d6 +4
Shruiken: +1 1d2 +4 (0/0 1d2 +4 Flurry)
Stunning Fist (1/day) DC 13
Feats(3): Toughness, Dodge (monk)
Traits: Reactionary (+2 init) and Wisdom in the Flesh (Use wisdom for a skill check)
Skills (4 + 1 favored): Climb (1 rank): 8, Knowledge History (1 rank) 4, Perception (1 rank): 7, Stealth (1 rank + 3 from Wisdom in the Flesh):7, Sense Motive (1 rank): 7
Gear (35gp): Pathfinder kit (12gp) Shuriken 1gp
Just to throw into the mix. AC and Hit Points are comparable, damage is lower, but has basically TWF. Very high perception, sense motive and saves, and thanks to wisdom in the flesh stealth.
Rolled up this fellow for a Rogue, a coastal raider personality.
Skaldi Haroldson
Male Human (Ulfen) Rogue (Scout, Swashbuckler) 1
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 17 (1d8+9)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 35 ft.
Melee Rapier +3 (1d6+1/18-20/x2) or Sap +3 (1d6+1/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +3 (1d6/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 14
Feats Tribal Scars (Raptorscale), Weapon Finesse
Traits Cheat Death (1/day), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +7, Bluff +5, Climb +3, Diplomacy +5, Disable Device +5, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Knowledge (local) +5, Linguistics +5, Perception +5, Ride +1, Stealth +5, Swim -1
Languages Common, Elven, Goblin, Skald
SQ heart of the wilderness +1
Other Gear Lamellar (leather) armor, Arrows (20), Rapier, Sap, Shortbow, Backpack (3 @ 5.44 lbs), Thieves' tools, Torch, Waterskin, 4 GP, 9 SP, 9 CP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 20/20
Cheat Death (1/day) - 0/1
Torch - 1/1
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Cheat Death (1/day) Even Besmara's most faithful worshipers usually call upon her only in times of greatest need. Sometimes Besmara intervenes on behalf of her faithful; other times, she turns her face away as they sink beneath the waves. Once per day, when you would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of a failed ability check, skill check or saving throw on your part, you may invoke this ability in order to reroll the failed check. You must take the result of the second roll, even if it is worse than the original.
Heart of the Wilderness +1 Negative Hp required for death increases by listed amount, +5 on CON checks to stabilize.
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Can I buy a partially charged wand? ^^
(I understand this can be misinterpreted, but I'm just joking around, ciretose, not trying to antagonize you) ^^
Wasn't the idea of the thread to throw these character at some kind of mini-adventuring test?
Like, a series of CR appropriate encounter/traps to see how they fare (assuming they have the help of a reasonably optimized/balanced party, let's say, a Wizard, a Cleric and a... I'd say Rogue but we seem to have some of those here...).
As of now, we're just throwing builds around, which is fun, but doesn't prove much by itself, IMHO.
Someone could propose a mini adventure or something, which involved finding the Enemy's Dungeon/Lair/Headquarters is, then attacking it.
Maybe an AP.
|
|
Wasn't the idea of the thread to throw these character at some kind of mini-adventuring test?
Like, a series of CR appropriate encounter/traps to see how they fare (assuming they have the help of a reasonably optimized/balanced party, let's say, a Wizard, a Cleric and a... I'd say Rogue but we seem to have some of those here...).
As of now, we're just throwing builds around, which is fun, but doesn't prove much by itself, IMHO.
Someone could propose a mini adventure or something, which involved finding the Enemy's Dungeon/Lair/Headquarters is, then attacking it.
Maybe an AP.
I would love to do this, but it wasn't the original intent I had.
I tried to do this with ROTRL, but it fizzled out when we ran out of judges around 4th level.
Ira Monk 1st Level Human [Dual Talent] Monk
** spoiler omitted **
Just to throw into the mix. AC and Hit Points are comparable, damage is lower, but has basically TWF. Very high perception, sense motive and saves, and thanks to wisdom in the flesh stealth.
I think you used 25 Point buy here (just took a quick peek so I could be wrong).
As for offering a build (will do others when I have some more time).
Level 1 Fighter (Lore Warden)
=== Stats ===
Str 18 (16 +2Racial),Dex 16,Con 14,Int 9,Wis 10, Cha 7
=== Defense ===
Ac: 17 (+ 4armor +3 dex)
Touch AC: 13
FF AC: 14
HP: 12
CMD: 18 (20 vs Sunder)
=== Saves ===
Fort +4
Ref +3
Will +0
=== Attacks ===
Heavy Flail: Attack: +5 (Always Power Attack w/ Furious Focus) 1d10+9 (19-20/x2)
or
Bec de Corbin: Attack: +5 (Power Attack/Furious Focus) 1d10+9 (x3)
Ranged
Sling: Attack: +4 Damage: 1d4+4
CMB: +5 (+9 Sunder, +11 sunder Med/Heavy Armor with Bec de Corbin)
=== Traits ===
Threatening Defender, Destructive Blows
=== Feats ===
1. (1st) Power Attack
2. (Human) Furious Attack
3. (Bonus) Improved Sunder
=== Skills ===
Perception +1, Swim +5, Craft(weapons) +0, Craft(armor) +0
=== Gear ===
Chain Shirt (100gp), Heavy-Flail (15gp), Bec de Corbin (15gp) Sling w/ 10 bullets (1sp), Fighter's Kit (9gp), Artisian's tools (5), Explorer's Outift (free), Grappling Hook (1gp), Flask of Acid x2 (20 gp), Weapon Blanch silver (5 gp) = 170gp 1sp. 4gp, 9 silver remaining.
Will focus on various Combat Maneuvars (mostly sunder, disarm, and trip). Was debating on a TWF with blade boot along with the Flail, but changed my mind. Using Lore warden skill points for craft to repair broken weapons and armors to sell (Wizards in my group tend to avoid Mend).
Edit: Put character in spoiler to make post smaller.
RDRR :)Can I buy a partially charged wand? ^^
(I understand this can be misinterpreted, but I'm just joking around, ciretose, not trying to antagonize you) ^^
I have no idea what RDRR means... But since there's a smiley emoticom there, I assume you were not offended.
I would love to do this, but it wasn't the original intent I had.
I tried to do this with ROTRL, but it fizzled out when we ran out of judges around 4th level.
The problem is that this a bit too impractical to do in a forum enviroment.
We can't go it round by round, because it'd take ages to write/read it.
We could try skimming over the challenges ("In this situation, my character would Do X, which most likely would result in Y..."), but that doesn't give us any concrete data.
(e.g.: There is an explosive trap with a DC15 Perception check to notice, and it deals average 15 fire damage to everyone in the AoE, one character has a 35% chance to note the trap, the other has 65%, and the third one has only a 10% chance, but she's an archer, so she most likely stays in the back or center of the party, where it's safe from explosion because other party members will either find or activate the trap before she is in the AoE. How do we calculate how much damage the trap deals to each character?)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think you used 25 Point buy here (just took a quick peek so I could be wrong).
Nah, he went Dual-Talent, alternate human racial trait for two +2's, rather than one. One in STR, one in WIS. He just didn't mark the STR +2.
Also hi5 for Lore Warden builds
no,no no. That means he want to hurt you but he would smile while do in it ....:PRDRR :)Can I buy a partially charged wand? ^^
(I understand this can be misinterpreted, but I'm just joking around, ciretose, not trying to antagonize you) ^^
I have no idea what RDRR means... But since there's a smiley emoticom there, I assume you were not offended.
I knew it! I knew I couldn't trust internet people to not be offended!
I have no idea what RDRR means...Say each letter out loud.
Ah, it's supposed to be a sarcastic laughter... That makes sense.
Yup. Sorry for the confusion.I think you used 25 Point buy here (just took a quick peek so I could be wrong).Nah, he went Dual-Talent, alternate human racial trait for two +2's, rather than one. One in STR, one in WIS. He just didn't mark the STR +2.
Also hi5 for Lore Warden builds
IMHO, for the purpose of this thread, it'd be better to stay away from race-specific options. I think the best way to is assuming the character belongs to a medium-sized humanoid race whose only racial trait is a +2 to any one attribute score.
That means no bonus feats for Paladins and no extra skill points for Fighters.|
|
How are you going to take mobility into account ? Also I was thinking of seeing how a charger compares but that usually requires a small race to be practical but given the the human limit should I just go ahead with a medium sized charger ?@Lemmy - Normally I would agree with you, but if we are limiting to one race I thik we should allow all of the options of that race if we are keeping all books open.
I'll defer if others disagree, take strength down and pick another feat. It can work either way.
I think when you have builds of equal level you can compare them directly for what they can and can't do.
Looking at all the builds so far, mobility seems to be a wash. Barb will have an advantage when it appears, but it will also only have probably about 6 rounds of rage a day.
@Lamontius - Ahh, I missed that part. Like I said, only a quick peek. Tbh, I have yet to play a Lore Warden, but the archetype does look fun(actually have only played 1 fighter in the 4ish years my group has been playing Pathfinder).
@Nicos, Thank you. I wasn't paying attention when I copied the format. :)
Ciretose, I like your builds, you understand it’s hard to be heroic when you’re dumber than the village idiot and so horrid people throw rocks at you when you go out in public.
Sir Dinadan, Hu Paladin & healer:
Str 14
Dex13( Any better place to put one leftover point? Int? Wis?)
Con14
Int10
Wis 12
Cha 14+2= 16
Longsword +3, 1d8+2
Underbridge Dweller:Armor Expert
Extra Lay On Hands
Skills with ranks: Perc (+5/7), Dipl (7), Heal (5), Rel (4)
Longsword, Light hammer, Chainmail, Hv Wood shld
AC 19.
|
|
Ciretose, I like your builds, you understand it’s hard to be heroic when you’re dumber than the village idiot and so horrid people throw rocks at you when you go out in public.
I won't prove anything if I have to min/max to prove it, now will I?
I am here to test, not proclaim. If I'm wrong, it will show.
I wish there were more classes represented, but it seems the ones who "know" aren't interested in testing if they are correct.
Except Rynjin, props to him for making the thread.
Rolled up this fellow for a Rogue, a coastal raider personality.
** spoiler omitted **...
Doh, my bad, slight stat correction I made and didn't save:
STR: 13DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 12
CHA: 12
I do not believe the change alters any other parts of the initial level 1 build.
I'll post a Barb, gimme a few minutes. And I'll try to come up with a few CR appropriate things for each character later if y'all want. Just like "Here's a few CR 1 enemies, how does he fare?" and "Here's a trap, can he avoid it?"
For the sake of judging the mechanics though, no nifty tricks like "I trigger the trap from a safe distance with a pole" since IMO that kind of tactic's validity can vary from table to table, and besides that it's kind of universal to each trap anyway.
My Archer Barbarian, just to be sassy and to compare with Shallowsoul's archer fighter.
(Also, this build is PFS-legal)
Jarl Long-Eye
Male Human (Ulfen) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager, Urban Barbarian) 1
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +1 shield, +4 Dex)
hp 13 (1d12+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +1
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Greataxe +3 (1d12+3/x3)
Melee Greataxe +5 (1d12+6/x3) (Normal Rage)
Ranged Longbow +5 (1d8/x3)
Ranged Longbow +6 (1d8+1/x3) (Point Blank Shot)
Ranged Longbow +7 (1d8/x3) (Controlled Rage - +4 Dex)
Ranged Longbow +8 (1d8+1/x3) (Point Blank Shot + Controlled Rage)
Special Attacks rage (8 rounds/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 17
Feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Traits Berserker of the Society, Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea)
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +4, Craft (bows) -2, Diplomacy +4, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Perception +5, Ride +2, Stealth +2, Swim +4
Languages Common, Skald
SQ controlled rage, controlled rage: constitution, controlled rage: dexterity, crowd control
Other Gear Studded leather armor, Buckler, Arrows (20), Blunt arrows (20), Greataxe, Longbow, Backpack (4 @ 6.72 lbs), Torch (2), Waterskin, 18 GP, 9 SP, 9 CP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 20/20
Blunt arrows - 20/20
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) - 8/8
Torch - 2/2
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Berserker of the Society +3 rounds of Rage a day.
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crowd Control (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea) You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
=== Defense ===
HP: 15 (17 Rage)
AC: 16 (14 Rage)
Touch AC: 12
Flatfooted AC: 14
CMD: 16
=== Saves ===
Fort +4
Ref +2
Will +1 (+3 Rage)
=== Attacks ===
Melee: Scythe +5 (2d4+6/x4), Power Attack: Scythe +4 (2d4+9/x4)
Melee: Scythe +7 (2d4+8/x4), Power Attack: Scythe +6 (2d4+11/x4)
Ranged: Javelin +2 (1d6+4/x2)
CMB: 15
=== Traits ===
Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Berserker of the Society (+3 Rage rounds)
=== Feats ===
1. Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
=== Skills ===
Climb +8
Intimidate +6
Perception +5
Survival +5
Swim +8
=== Special ===
Rage (9 rounds)
Fast Movement (+10 ft speed)
=== Gear ===
Chain Shirt, Scythe, 10 javelins, Miscellaneous adventuring gear
Okie. Howzat?
I went with a Scythe because I wanted to make a two-hander user but I've never made a scythe wielder before. I'm usually very attached to the Earthbreaker. Tell me if that second trait needs to be changed.
As for challenges, perhaps 1 combat, 1 trap, and one NPC interaction or information gathering?
Say, at level 1 it goes something like this.
Combat: 2 Skeletons
Trap: Pit trap
NPC Interaction: Diplomacy or Intimidate to get information from an NPC, or Kn. Religion or History to figure it out for yourself. DC 15 on both.
|
|
My Archer Barbarian, just to be sassy and to compare with Shallowsoul's archer fighter.
(Also, this build is PFS-legal)** spoiler omitted **...
Just want to point out PFS has much higher starting gold than regular for Barb (105), and is less than fighters, Paladins and Rangers who normally average 174.
This is only an issue at 1st level, but it would mean probably no longbow...
I have absolutely no knowledge of RoTRL.
The only one I know thoroughly is Carrion Crown, and the first 3 books or so of Serpent's Skull, and the first book of Skull and Shackles.
|
|
Two Questions and then a suggestion.
1. Would anyone say any of the builds are lagging.
2. Would anyone like to expand beyond Martial class and post other classes.
And then the suggestion.
We should look at APs and or modules for the appropriate level and consider what would be a "day" in that module. Opening sequence or two perhaps, and discuss which build, if any, would have trouble or would be awesome.
For example
minor RoTRL Spoiler
The opening sequence for RoTRL is 3 consecutive encounters designed for 1st level characters.
|
|
I have absolutely no knowledge of RoTRL.
The only one I know thoroughly is Carrion Crown, and the first 3 books or so of Serpent's Skull, and the first book of Skull and Shackles.
Any of those work for me. I just ran Carrion Crown and I got through book two of Serpent Skull (then we wanted to play something else) and have the set.
My Archer Barbarian, just to be sassy and to compare with Shallowsoul's archer fighter.
(Also, this build is PFS-legal)** spoiler omitted **...
Just want to point out PFS has much higher starting gold than regular for Barb (105), and is less than fighters, Paladins and Rangers who normally average 174.
This is only an issue at 1st level, but it would mean probably no longbow...
Built him with 150gp. If it's going to be an issue, I'll just take off stuff until he's under whatever limit you are deciding to use.
|
|
My Archer Barbarian, just to be sassy and to compare with Shallowsoul's archer fighter.
(Also, this build is PFS-legal)** spoiler omitted **...
Just want to point out PFS has much higher starting gold than regular for Barb (105), and is less than fighters, Paladins and Rangers who normally average 174.
This is only an issue at 1st level, but it would mean probably no longbow...
Built him with 150gp. If it's going to be an issue, I'll just take off stuff until he's under whatever limit you are deciding to use.
Not my thread. PFS is also a perfectly reasonable standard. Just pointing it out, not intended as actual criticism, just a comment.
|
|
Just for fun...not the most effective, but he should do fine...I've always wondered how I'd build a Meteor Hammer fighter...so here he is.
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 10
Init: +2
AC: 17 (18 w/2-h style)
Flat: 12
Touch: 13
CMB: +4
CMD: 15
HP: 12
Fort: +4
Ref: +2
Will: +1
Attack:
Meteor Hammer +4, 1d8+4, Reach, Trip
Shortbow +2, 1d6 (x3)
Dagger +4, 1d4+3 (19-20/x2)
Feats(3): EWP: Meteor Hammer, Combat Reflexes, Dodge
Traits: Jenivere Crew: Acrobatics, Armor Expert
Skills: Acrobatics +6, Climb +6, Intimidation +4, Know: Dungeoneering +5, Perception +2
Gear: Chain Shirt (100), Meteor Hammer (10), Shortbow (30), Dagger (2), Pathfinder's Kit (12), 20 Arrows (1), 20 gp
Edit: Corrected AC w/2-h style Meteor Hammer, added bow and dagger.
My name is Byrd, and I approve this thread!
Getting my hands dirty here. Human sohei monk.
Str: 16 (+2)
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Ini: +4
AC: 18
Flat: 14
Touch: 14
Cmb: 4
Cmd: 17
HP: 12
F: 3
R: 5
W: 3
Feats: dodge, combat reflexes, toughness
Fcb: HP
Skills: sense motive (+5), diplomacy (+3), acrobatics (+7), know religion (+3)
Attack: ranseur, + 4, 2d4 + 6, 20x3 (reach, disarm)
Attack: unarmed strike, + 4, 1d6 + 4, 20x2
Attack: flurry, +2/+2, 1d6 +4, 20x2
Attack: javelin, +3, 1d6 + 4, 20x2 (range 30ft)
Gear: chain shirt, ranseur, javelin x4.