Ranged Flanking


Rules Questions

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2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does this exist?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xander_21 wrote:
Does this exist?

No.

Flanking: "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."

While some abilities allow you to threaten with a ranged weapon, which would allow you to possibly provide the flanking bonus to someone else, you do not benefit from that bonus unless you are making a melee attack.


As he said. Altho, it is possible there is some wierd PrC or feat that allows it, but if so, it would spell it out.


Cool. Thanks!

Silver Crusade

Grick you are mistaken. With the Snapshot chain of feats you can threaten up to 15' so you can flank when you can threaten.


Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lou Diamond wrote:
Grick you are mistaken. With the Snapshot chain of feats you can threaten up to 15' so you can flank when you can threaten.

Snapshot doesn't make it a melee attack just because you can threaten. As Grick said, flanking is a melee attack. He included the rest of the quote about threatening, but the point was:

Quote:
When making a melee attack...


Lou Diamond wrote:
Grick you are mistaken. With the Snapshot chain of feats you can threaten up to 15' so you can flank when you can threaten.

No, he addressed this in his post. While it allows you to threaten, flanking still says "in melee". Ranged threatening doesn't mean flanking.


4.0 added a feat designed to grant "combat advantage" (flanking) at range. I am not aware of a core equivalent in Pathfinder. There is a 3rd-party feat that allows it (don't remember which publisher off the top of my head).

If you're dealing with PFS, you are probably out of luck. If this is a non-moderated table, you could talk to your DM about either taking a third-party variant, or taking a very flexible reading of the Gang Up feat (i.e., that it states you flank "regardless of position" as long as two allies are adjacent to the foe).

Silver Crusade

From the definition of flanking, I would argue that someone could construe it such that a ranged attacker with the Snap Shot feat could be a flanking buddy for a melee character. However, the ranged attacker would not get a flanking bonus on its attacks.

Note: I do not think this is the way it works. I am simply stating that the wording of flanking is sufficiently ambiguous that someone could construe it that way.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

From the definition of flanking, I would argue that someone could construe it such that a ranged attacker with the Snap Shot feat could be a flanking buddy for a melee character. However, the ranged attacker would not get a flanking bonus on its attacks.

Note: I do not think this is the way it works. I am simply stating that the wording of flanking is sufficiently ambiguous that someone could construe it that way.

Combining Snap Shot and Gang Up can allow the character with the latter feat greater flanking opportunity.

Bow-wielder with Snap Shot is adjacent to the target; because of the feat, he's considered to be threatening. If another ally is next to the target, then the person with Gang Up would be considered to be flanking regardless of her actual position. That would be RAW, in my opinion.

Silver Crusade

Xaratherus wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:

From the definition of flanking, I would argue that someone could construe it such that a ranged attacker with the Snap Shot feat could be a flanking buddy for a melee character. However, the ranged attacker would not get a flanking bonus on its attacks.

Note: I do not think this is the way it works. I am simply stating that the wording of flanking is sufficiently ambiguous that someone could construe it that way.

Combining Snap Shot and Gang Up can allow the character with the latter feat greater flanking opportunity.

Bow-wielder with Snap Shot is adjacent to the target; because of the feat, he's considered to be threatening. If another ally is next to the target, then the person with Gang Up would be considered to be flanking regardless of her actual position. That would be RAW, in my opinion.

You have the following scenarion, where x = open square, r = ranged ally, m = melee ally, and e = enemy.

XXXXX
XREMX
XXXXX

The ranged ally has the Snap Shot feat, therefore he is threatening E. On M's turn, E is threatened on opposite sides so M should get the flanking bonus to his attacks. On R's turn, he cannot flank because he is not making a melee attack.


As others have said, you cannot benefit from flanking while using a ranged weapon because to benefit requires the use of a melee weapon. However, you can provide flanking to another person since the requirement is 'threatening' with no specific weapon type (melee or ranged) criteria.

- Gauss

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

As others have said, you cannot benefit from flanking while using a ranged weapon because to benefit requires the use of a melee weapon. However, you can provide flanking to another person since the requirement is 'threatening' with no specific weapon type (melee or ranged) criteria.

- Gauss

Ok, then I'm understanding it correctly. A ranged character with the Snap Shot feat can be a flanking buddy for a melee combatant, but does not get the flanking bonus itself.


@BigDaddyJug:

R has Snap Shot; M is a melee combatant; O is a melee combatant with Gang Up.

<linebreak to account for for picture :P>
<linebreak to account for for picture :P>
<linebreak to account for for picture :P>

X X X M X
X R E X X
X X O X X

O is considered to have flank on E at all times even though he is not technically positioning to flank, because he has two allies adjacent to the enemy who threaten it.

[edit]
Sorry for off-topic, just wanted to clarify what I meant.


This Class could do it if 3rd party is allowed, it from Kobold magazine
but not until level 16 it almost as strong as a Ranger, but not as strong.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press/elven-archer


If you disagree that ranged can PROVIDE a flank bonus, dissect flanking.

"When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus" :only the person making a melee attack gets the bonus, and under the following condition:

"if your opponent is THREATENED by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."

Now Snap Shot: "While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you THREATEN squares within 5 feet of you." Add Improved Snap Shot and Combat Patrol, and you're looking at potentially a 25-30 square burst that you threaten. However, because the ranged character is not making a melee attack, he cannot actually get the bonus, only threaten squares to provide it to others.

EVEN AT MELEE RANGE, A LONGBOW IS NOT A MELEE ATTACK. Unless you have an improvised weapons feat and intend to bash your enemy with your longbow, it will never be a melee attack! But you still THREATEN squares, which fulfills the requirement for the melee characters to flank.


Ranged Flank (Combat)

Even at a distance, you can take advantage of a distracted opponent.

Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +10.

Benefit: When attacking with ranged or thrown weapons from a distance of up to 30 feet, if the nearest adjacent space to your target is unoccupied and the opposite space is occupied by a threatening ally, you are considered flanking. Both you and your ally gain all the benefits of flanking, including +2 flanking bonus on attacks, rogues can sneak attack, etc.

Normal: Only characters in melee are considered flanking.

This Feat States you can not.

Also You can Attack with a Bow into an Adjcent enemies but it provokes AoO.

Point Blank Master (Combat)

You are adept at firing ranged weapons in close quarters.

Prerequisite: Weapon Specialization with selected ranged weapon.

Benefit: Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.

Normal: Using a ranged weapon while you are threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.

Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery combat style may select Point Blank Master as a combat style feat, but he must have Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization in the selected weapon.


Ranged flank works if you are playing in a game that allows 3rd party content. Other than that, you cannot gain flanking with a ranged attack. In PFS it is not possible.


Robert I didnt even notice it was in a 3rd party book


Xander_21 wrote:
Does this exist?

I believe it does.

From my reading of the rules people seem to be getting confused between flanking and flanking bonus.

As noted in the rules: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
By this definition your ranged attack cannot gain a flanking bonus.

In the rules flanking is defined as ...trace an imaginary line between the two attackers’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
By this definition a ranged attacker can flank.

Please note the difference between flanking and flanking bonus.
Nowhere does it require that you must threaten the target to be considered flanking. But your target must be threatened by an ally to gain a flanking bonus when you make a melee attack.

All emphasis is mine.

Lantern Lodge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

I full-heartedly agree with Davd Rowe. In my experience, this is how I rule. The intent of flanking is such that your attention is divided between in front of you and behind you. Proof that your attention is divided between in front of you and behind you when a ranged character is involved is the fact that you still get your dexterity bonus to AC against both attacks.

Not getting the flanking bonus for ranged attacks is correct. With this interpretation, one could say that a rogue with a bow could get sneak attacks against her opponent when there's a melee ally on the other side, so long as that rogue "threatens" the opponent with an ability like snap shot. Note that sneak attack is available when you are "flanking", not when your getting a flanking bonus.

I think that this deserves a FAQ, I've seen it asked a lot in some of the groups I play with.

Does a ranged attacker who threatens a character with an ability like snap shot qualify as "flanking" that character if all other conditions are met (such as having another threatening attacker opposite of the character)?

Spoiler:
PH-Combat wrote:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.

Does this mean that a ranged character who has improved unarmed strike threatens squares next to him with his unarmed strikes (not his bow)? Or is it illegal to use a different weapon other than the one used the previous round for attacks for your AoOs? Serious and honest question.

EDIT: Minor grammatical errors corrected.


Xander_21 wrote:
Does this exist?

Yes:

1) Reach Weapons
2) Reach through size / enlarge person
3) Lunge Feat
4) Summoned Monsters
5) Illusion Wizard: Bedeviling Aura

~I know a couple other more obscure ones if people care~


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:


Does a ranged attacker who threatens a character with an ability like snap shot qualify as "flanking" that character if all other conditions are met (such as having another threatening attacker opposite of the character)?

** spoiler omitted **

EDIT: Minor grammatical errors corrected.

The snap shot feat chain does not grant flanking with ranged weapons.

Grand Lodge

Mapleswitch wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:


Does a ranged attacker who threatens a character with an ability like snap shot qualify as "flanking" that character if all other conditions are met (such as having another threatening attacker opposite of the character)?

** spoiler omitted **

EDIT: Minor grammatical errors corrected.

The snap shot feat chain does not grant flanking with ranged weapons.

Actually, his question is stated a bit incorrectly, and it should be two questions, for clarity.

1) Does a ranged attacker, using a bow, with the Snap Shot feat, provide flanking for a melee attacker on the opposite side of their common enemy?
I think it does, as long as the ranged character still has AoOs left he can use with Snap Shot. (I believe that is written into Snap Shot)

2) Does a ranged attacker gain the flanking condition, not a flanking bonus, against an enemy character he is on the opposite side of from an ally who is threatening that same opponent?
Flanking bonus requires melee. Flanking does not specify melee. Mainly needed to clarify if a ranged character with precision damage can use it in such a case.

Lantern Lodge

Mapleswitch, your statement seems a bit forward to me... do you know why it's possible to believe that the snap shot feat could allow a character to flank another with a bow?

Kinevon, your second question is automatically no. The character would need snap shot in order to threaten a character, and threatening a character is part of the definition of flanking.

The question is correct in it's intent. The question is essentially: "Can I flank a character with a ranged weapon?"


You can't gain any benefit for trying to flank with a ranged weapon. There is already a FAQ that says you can't. You can provide a flank for someone else since you still threaten, but you can't yourself gain any benefit from flanking with a ranged weapon.

FAQ wrote:

Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?

The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)

—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10


Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)
You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.


Note that this feat makes no mention of 'melee' anywhere.

So if you can provide flanking with snap shot, then so too could you get a +4 bonus from this guy if you use teamwork feats.

Liberty's Edge

Remy Balster wrote:

Note that this feat makes no mention of 'melee' anywhere.

It doesn't need to as Flanking itself already states the Melee requirement. Nothing in that ability countermands the standard flanking rules, only adds additional benefits.


Fomsie wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:

Note that this feat makes no mention of 'melee' anywhere.

It doesn't need to as Flanking itself already states the Melee requirement. Nothing in that ability countermands the standard flanking rules, only adds additional benefits.

The standard rules allow you to flank from range...


When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.

///////

A= Ally M= Monster C= Character w/ imp snapshot

XXXXX
XAMXC
XXXXX

Is the monster flanked? Yes. Draw a line, you can clearly see that he is threatened by two opponents from opposite sides.

Now, typically C doesn't get a bonus, because he isn't using a melee attack. But if A and C have Outflank? That bonus doesn't mention melee a all, it just says to your 'attack rolls'.

Liberty's Edge

Remy Balster wrote:
Fomsie wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:

Note that this feat makes no mention of 'melee' anywhere.

It doesn't need to as Flanking itself already states the Melee requirement. Nothing in that ability countermands the standard flanking rules, only adds additional benefits.
The standard rules allow you to flank from range...

No they do not.

Flanking: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

Threatened: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.

Snap Shot lets you threaten and provide a flank for someone else, but you still are not making a melee attack to get the bonus.


When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.


Outflank does not spell out only melee.

Just that you need to be flanking.

The bonus is to 'attack rolls'.

Ranged attack rolls are 'attack rolls'.


Please provide a relevant rules quote that says you can flank from range. Flanking only works with melee attacks per RAW.

Flanking wrote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

You do not get a flanking bonus unless you are attacking with a melee weapon. Your argument is the same argument people were using for the Gang Up feat and that was FAQ'd to say that it doesn't work. This is a similar situation and the RAI is quite clear if you look at the ruling for Gang Up.


You just quoted it...

What is going on here??

Snap Shot allows you to threaten with a ranged weapon. Thus, you are threatening the opponent. If you are threatening the opponent from the opposite side from an ally... you are flanking.


opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

Liberty's Edge

When making a MELEE attack.

Snap shot lets you threaten, so you can provide the flank for an ally, who is in melee, it does not make your ranged attacks into melee attacks. So you do not considered as flanking for self bonuses.


You are NOT getting the STANDARD bonus. You are deriving the BONUS from the FEAT.


your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4.


Remy Balster wrote:
your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4.

What flanking bonus? You only get a flanking bonus when attacking with a melee weapon.


Gotta bring those OP Rogues back down to earth. Ranged sneak attack is breaking my game!


Is a ranged attacker capable of flanking with snap shot? Yes. He derives no bonus to his ranged attacks, because the standard flanking bonus is to melee attacks. But yes, he can in fact flank.

Okay, so... we have thus established that a ranged attacker can be flanking.

Well...

"Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4."

When you and an ally with this feat are flanking the same creature. When you are FLANKING. Is the ranged attacker capable of flanking? Yes. Okay, so... this requirement is SATISFIED.

Next...

"your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4."

Is the ranged attacker making an attack roll? Yes. Then the bonus to that attack roll is +4. This is spelled out, by the feat, as the benefit of the feat.

When flanking, add +4 to attack rolls. (given that you are flanking with an ally who also has the feat, against the same target)

Feats provide exceptions to default rules all the time. That is litterally what they do.


Robert A Matthews wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:
your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4.
What flanking bonus? You only get a flanking bonus when attacking with a melee weapon.

Whatever it was before is now +4. The RAW effect of the feat.

It doesn't say changes from +2 to +4. It says increases to +4.


FLANKING IS MELEE ONLY.

No feats currently change this despite what any one thinks or says. Flanking has the inherent requirement of melee, and nothing, NOTHING, changes that basic requirement anywhere.

Snapshot allows you to threaten at range, and thus would allow someone else who is threatening the same enemy with a melee weapon to receive flanking, but a ranged combatant will never receive flanking.


Claxon wrote:

FLANKING IS MELEE ONLY.

No feats currently change this despite what any one thinks or says. Flanking has the inherent requirement of melee, and nothing, NOTHING, changes that basic requirement anywhere.

Snapshot allows you to threaten at range, and thus would allow someone else who is threatening the same enemy with a melee weapon to receive flanking, but a ranged combatant will never receive flanking.

Glad to know your opinion.

Can we stick to RAW here on the Rules Questions messageboard?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Amulet of Natural Armor

"This amulet, usually containing some type of magically preserved monster hide or other natural armor—such as bone, horn, carapace, or beast scales—toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet."

Sweet! And enchancement to a bonus my character doesn't have! I guess these things don't work for most characters.

See how it says "his natural armor"? Standard races don't have natural armor. So how... pray tel... does a character get any benefit from wearing one of these amulets?

Do you think, maybe, that we just consider his 'effective' natural armor bonus to be +0?

Wouldn't the 'effective' flanking bonus of all noneligible attacks be +0? Of course it is.

Default rules for flanking gives a +2 to melee attacks when you flank. All other attack rolls have an 'effective' +0 flanking bonus. because they don't get the +2...

Insert specific Feat text which always trumps general: "your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4."

And BAM, just like that, your attack rolls get a flanking bonus of +4.

This is RAW. If this isn't RAW... then Amulets of natural Armor provide no benefit if you didn't 'already' have a natural armor bonus. But that is rediculous, because we all know that they in fact do work, even if you don't have a natural armor bonus.


David Rowe wrote:

Please note the difference between flanking and flanking bonus.

Nowhere does it require that you must threaten the target to be considered flanking. But your target must be threatened by an ally to gain a flanking bonus when you make a melee attack.

I... wow, I never actually looked this up. You may not get the flanking bonus, nor grant it to another character, but you can still be flanking with a ranged weapon. Which is all that matters for sneak attack.

You've just made ranged rogues not completely terrible. Good job.


Tharken wrote:
David Rowe wrote:

Please note the difference between flanking and flanking bonus.

Nowhere does it require that you must threaten the target to be considered flanking. But your target must be threatened by an ally to gain a flanking bonus when you make a melee attack.

I... wow, I never actually looked this up. You may not get the flanking bonus, nor grant it to another character, but you can still be flanking with a ranged weapon. Which is all that matters for sneak attack.

You've just made ranged rogues not completely terrible. Good job.

They'd still need a way to threaten with ranged though. Ie Snap Shot, or Improved Snap Shot.

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