Angel Wings


Advice

Liberty's Edge

I've been planning on my Aasimar Cleric taking Angel Wings as a feat when he reaches Level 11, but after comparing what you get with similar PC flight abilities for class-based flight, it's a lousy deal.

Unencumbered or wearing Light Armor, he would be able to fly up to 30' per round. With medium or heavy armor, he can only fly 20' per round. The maneuverability suffers accordingly.

Oracles with the (Flight) revelation can fly 60' per round with average maneuverability regardless of what armor they are wearing.

Witches with the Flight hex can Fly as the spell (at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load)). The maneuverability is Good regardless of the character's encumbrance or armor.

Angel Wings grants unlimited flight, while the class-based flight is limited to minutes (per class level), but in combat that doesn't matter as most combats won't last a full minute anyway.

In summary, I feel that Angel Wings is a raw deal compared to what other classes receive. How do you all feel about this? Has there been any errata to the Advanced Race Guide regarding this Feat to make it more consistent with what you get with other Flight options?

Shadow Lodge

so you're mad that your fighter doesnt need to carry around fly potions anymore?

i dont get how you feel a feat should be better then a class feature, and im also concerned that you dont see to useful ness of having a fighter or barbarian that can fly without any magic.

that opens quite a bit of wealth and a slot, just for a racial feat.

Lantern Lodge

Hello,
First I would like to point out you are comparing three different groups of things.

The groups you are comparing are Race, Class and, Feats.

Looking at the book the Tieflings, the "evil" version of Aasimar, don't get a Demon Wings feat. So why should an Aasimar get a angelic version?

As you stated your Aasimar's wings never go away! There are no minimum cast times or maximum cast times. Meaning you can fly whenever you want without worrying about how many minutes you have used them today.

The witch and Oracle ability to fly per the hex spell or Revelations maxes out at 20 min. Adding to this using their ability forces them to use AT LEST 1 min of the spell per casting that is a minimum of 20 casts.

Combat isn't the only time you may find yourself using your wings. Climbing? - why bother? you can fly up that cliff at no negative impact to you.

That Oracle or witch they have to burn 1 minute of their hex / revelation to do the same thing. That is 1 less minute they will not have for later on.

So I feel that the feat is very balanced.

Silver Crusade

Val, I would argue that demons are not nearly as closely associated with winged beings as angels are. That's why tieflings don't have a wing feat specifically for them.

I do agree that the Angelic Wings feat is very balanced, especially when you consider you can take the Metalling Wings feat 2 levels later and add 2 secondary natural attacks to your arsenal.


It's UNLIMITED flight. Which you already seem to be aware of, but don't care about?

You can use it for out of combat.

All the time.

Climb check? Fly!

Jump/Acrobatics check? Fly!

Walk? Fly!

Scout? Fly!

Simply going from Point A to Point B in the most laziest, but resource-efficient and rather showiest way possible? FLY!

Only other player at-will flight I can think of are:
Wings of Air (Sylph racial feat. level 9 and Airy) where fly speed (good) = base speed and only in light or no armor.
Air Supremacy for Wizard Air School level 10, cast fly at will.

Since Angel Wings are pretty comparable to Wings of Air, but you can use heavier armor and aasimar seem to have tons of nice options since ARG and Blood of Angels came out, it looks fine.

If it's still an issue, use your level 11 feat and get Craft Wondrous Items and make wings of flying.


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casiel wrote:
In summary, I feel that Angel Wings is a raw deal compared to what other classes receive. How do you all feel about this?

I feel that it's at least ten times better than Angelic Blood, at any rate.

Liberty's Edge

TheSideKick wrote:

so you're mad that your fighter doesnt need to carry around fly potions anymore?

i dont get how you feel a feat should be better then a class feature, and im also concerned that you dont see to useful ness of having a fighter or barbarian that can fly without any magic.

that opens quite a bit of wealth and a slot, just for a racial feat.

First of all, I'm not mad. I'm not going to allow myself to get mad about a game. I just don't think the feat is consistent with the other rules for flying as established by classes.

Second of all, I already said my character is a Cleric--not a Fighter or a Barbarian.

And yes, I feel that Feats should be equivalent to a Revelation or other class feature... especially when they require the character to be Level 11 before you can take them (yeah, it says Level 10 but how realistic is that). Oracles can fly at Level 7. The Fly spell can be cast as low as Level 5. I feel that a Feat that requires 11th level should allow up to 30'/round of flight per round regardless of armor or encumbrance. You can Fly (as the spell) in heavy armor or heavy encumbrance up to 40'/round. Therein lies the inconsistency of the rules.

Dark Archive

casiel wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:

so you're mad that your fighter doesnt need to carry around fly potions anymore?

i dont get how you feel a feat should be better then a class feature, and im also concerned that you dont see to useful ness of having a fighter or barbarian that can fly without any magic.

that opens quite a bit of wealth and a slot, just for a racial feat.

First of all, I'm not mad. I'm not going to allow myself to get mad about a game. I just don't think the feat is consistent with the other rules for flying as established by classes.

Second of all, I already said my character is a Cleric--not a Fighter or a Barbarian.

And yes, I feel that Feats should be equivalent to a Revelation or other class feature... especially when they require the character to be Level 11 before you can take them (yeah, it says Level 10 but how realistic is that). Oracles can fly at Level 7. The Fly spell can be cast as low as Level 5. I feel that a Feat that requires 11th level should allow up to 30'/round of flight per round regardless of armor or encumbrance. You can Fly (as the spell) in heavy armor or heavy encumbrance up to 40'/round. Therein lies the inconsistency of the rules.

You are aware that humanoids are not aerodynamically built for wings? Logically when using wings instead of magic they should always having clumsy flying.


Maybe you can be like Archangel from Marvel comics, and get your wings weaponized or something.

Silver Crusade

Perhaps Pazio should add the feat strong wings from 3.5 that grat noraml fly speed wearing med and heavy armor.


Vamptastic wrote:
Maybe you can be like Archangel from Marvel comics, and get your wings weaponized or something.

He can.

Keep in mind that the wings are not subject to Dispel or an Anti-Magic Field. Which becomes a much bigger deal the higher you are.


You can also get Mithral armor, which would make Medium count as Light for the purposes of flight.


Yes! That's so metal, dude.


Its a base movement and it is effected by haste? Thats a pretty common buff, so I think its pretty likely that you will end up with more movement than the others by virtue of that fact.

Scarab Sages

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Trogdar wise. Trogdar right. Trogdar good.

Silver Crusade

Bomanz wrote:
Trogdar wise. Trogdar right. Trogdar good.

Until he goes on a peasant burninating spree. Then Trogdar bad.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
casiel wrote:


Angel Wings grants unlimited flight, while the class-based flight is limited to minutes (per class level), but in combat that doesn't matter as most combats won't last a full minute anyway.

Those class abilities take a standard action to activate assuming you don't prebuff. A standard action is usually a significant portion of a players combat action allotment. And I would gladly trade those class features in for an overland flight/permanent variant if such was an option.

Honestly if Angel Wings didn't have that pesky racial requirement I am sure they would be extremely popular feats to take.


When I was explaining the difference to someone earlier, I told them to think of it as Magic vs. Physics. The Oracular and Witch wings, like flight spells, are magical and as such can freely flout the laws of physics. When you grow actual wings, though, that's your muscles doing all the work and a creature who has wings is only going to be designed to fly itself. Not the extra weight of armor and weapons.

As an example, if I made a suit of full plate armor for a bald eagle, not only would it be awesome, but I doubt very much the eagle would be able to fly well, if at all.

Edit:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1516/eagleqj.jpg
An armored Eagle IS awesome!

Scarab Sages

New Druid concept, only using iron wood. Thank you.

Liberty's Edge

Trogdar wrote:
Its a base movement and it is effected by haste? Thats a pretty common buff, so I think its pretty likely that you will end up with more movement than the others by virtue of that fact.

Very good idea. I'll just accept the feat as-is and cast Blessing of Fervor and select the 30' of extra movement to raise my Fly speed to 50'/round. Done deal.


Sorry for necromancing the thread but I thought I'd note something. Though I do think that At Will Flight probably does somewhat mean that this is at least somewhat balanced, but I would still note the things that I think could make a character get a little iffy about it.

1: it takes 3 feats and is race exclusive (Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh, and then the Wings themselves) and mentioning that Angelic Flesh reduces your Stealth rolls by 2, making it a little less useful for scouting than Protoman mentioned.

2: Though I feel that his point of "similar level abilities being better flight at this level" is a bit off, I do thing that there should be some extent to which they should be able to gain a bonus beyond this at an appropriate time, Like Lou Diamond mentioned.

Lou Diamond wrote:
Perhaps Pazio should add the feat strong wings from 3.5 that grat noraml fly speed wearing med and heavy armor.

Though I doubt it would happen a lot for anyone other than Aasimar (since.. Strix PCs certainly wouldn't use heavy armor much, and Wyvarans could but they'd be more likely to go for medium armor and go for being a barbarian rather than a fighter in plate. But being able to buy off a disadvantage like this for a stat (make them have a strength of at least 13 or maybe even 15 for it) would make a lot of sense. Granted being 4 feats in for a 30 foot fly speed in full plate sounds like it's not that great.. but I'll put another example of flight (though a 3pp one) as to why I feel like this could use something a bit more.

Two Advanced Talents from Spheres Of Might (which depending on how you calculate it amounts to being equivalent to one feat or half of a feat)

Sparrow’s Path (fly)

Prerequisites: Athletics sphere, Fly 3 ranks.

You gain a fly speed equal to half your base speed, with a maneuverability of clumsy. The fly speed only functions during your turn; if you are not on a surface that can support you at the end of your turn, you fall. If you deal damage to a hostile creature with a melee attack during your turn, you may choose not to fall at the end of that turn.

At 8 ranks in Fly, this fly speed becomes permanent. This is a supernatural effect.

Eagle’s Path (fly)

Prerequisites: Athletics sphere, Sparrow’s Path, Fly 9 ranks. Your fly speed increases to become equal to your base speed, and your maneuverability improved to (average).

For at worst 2 feats and at best 1 feat (though that one feat one means you gave up a total of 5 feats or more to get the right to be a Proficient Practitioner and got GM permission to get the talent) you're gaining pretty much the same thing without it making any specific mention of reduced speed except for the speed reduction incurred naturally by your armor.


Protoman wrote:

Only other player at-will flight I can think of are:

Wings of Air (Sylph racial feat. level 9 and Airy) where fly speed (good) = base speed and only in light or no armor.
Air Supremacy for Wizard Air School level 10, cast fly at will.

There's Overland Flight (40 feet round) and some effects that mimic it. At minimum 8 hours of flight is plenty considering 8 hours a day is the max for overland travel before forced march. With Extend as a feat it's a minimum 22 hours which is effectively all day (even with a ring of subsistence you still need 2 hours of sleep). Even with a rod it's a minimum of 16 (full day minus your sleep time).

There's also Shapechanger bloodline. When you hit effective sorcerer level 9 (Even a gish can get this with Robes of Arcane Heritage and minimum sorc levels needed to enter Eldritch Knight) one polymorph spell you cast has hours/level duration (and can still be extended per above). That's 60 feet fly speed minimum on top of the whole being a dragon all day thing.


I've been an aasimar fullplated warpriest with wings in a fairly arcane rich party (i.e. magic potions all over the place and a magus capable of casting fly/overland flight). But the amount of times I rescued the party from antimagic pits, partymembers beying thrown off a cliff, abducted by airborn creatures, etc etc etc is not countable on 4 hands.

Yes, it takes 3 feats, yes it's slower than other forms of flight, yes your flight is pour, BUT it is permanent and not susceptible for anti-magic fields and many..many many many circumstantial situations where casting is no longer an option.

Being able to immediatly dash towards your enemy, regardsless of where they are (higher ground, on roofs, of city walls, otherside of a cliff, behind tables and what not), beats having to cast fly everytime. And like Protoman said, being able to fly (constantly) is so favourable in so many situations.

And besides, a feat should not be as "powerful" as a class ability, otherwise I'd have taken a feat which would grant me evasion for eeeeevery single character I've had.


Danny StarDust wrote:

I've been an aasimar fullplated warpriest with wings in a fairly arcane rich party (i.e. magic potions all over the place and a magus capable of casting fly/overland flight). But the amount of times I rescued the party from antimagic pits, partymembers beying thrown off a cliff, abducted by airborn creatures, etc etc etc is not countable on 4 hands.

Yes, it takes 3 feats, yes it's slower than other forms of flight, yes your flight is pour, BUT it is permanent and not susceptible for anti-magic fields and many..many many many circumstantial situations where casting is no longer an option.

Being able to immediatly dash towards your enemy, regardsless of where they are (higher ground, on roofs, of city walls, otherside of a cliff, behind tables and what not), beats having to cast fly everytime. And like Protoman said, being able to fly (constantly) is so favourable in so many situations.

And besides, a feat should not be as "powerful" as a class ability, otherwise I'd have taken a feat which would grant me evasion for eeeeevery single character I've had.

I wasn't saying it should be better, just that maybe there could be something you could use to mitigate the issue. I think that it's useful in its own way. I just thought play devil's advocate some as to why some players would see that as kinda hurting to give 3 feats of tax for it.


Like you can look at other forums and hear others say it's kinda bad as well. often citing that a spell slot can get the flight job done just as well as the permanent flight.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Spells can be dispelled. At-will flight is super powerful and one more thing you need to consider is that the game and adventures are designed around the assumption that flight is gained around level 5, which is in line with the 3 feat chain requirement.

Sure, there are exceptions and corner cases such as Strix, but a general average run the mill PF party can't fly reliably before level 5.


True, though you're looking at level 10 (more practically 11) before you can get angel wings because of the level prerequisites. Though I get what you mean by the feat chain thing.


you still have to wait until level 10 for it, but I get what you mean.


Personally I can't help but think that a fly speed of 30ft or even 20ft isn't good enough. Mostly because it means any other creature with a similar physical build can fly circles around them, without magical wings. Erinyes, which has the same basic bodily build, gets a movement speed of 50ft and good maneuverability. I personally think that for the 3rd feat in a chain, you should at least be able to match an Erinyes in the air.

Metallic Wings is amazing either way though.


Danny StarDust wrote:

I've been an aasimar fullplated warpriest with wings in a fairly arcane rich party (i.e. magic potions all over the place and a magus capable of casting fly/overland flight). But the amount of times I rescued the party from antimagic pits, partymembers beying thrown off a cliff, abducted by airborn creatures, etc etc etc is not countable on 4 hands.

Yes, it takes 3 feats, yes it's slower than other forms of flight, yes your flight is pour, BUT it is permanent and not susceptible for anti-magic fields and many..many many many circumstantial situations where casting is no longer an option.

Being able to immediatly dash towards your enemy, regardsless of where they are (higher ground, on roofs, of city walls, otherside of a cliff, behind tables and what not), beats having to cast fly everytime. And like Protoman said, being able to fly (constantly) is so favourable in so many situations.

And besides, a feat should not be as "powerful" as a class ability, otherwise I'd have taken a feat which would grant me evasion for eeeeevery single character I've had.

You either have some inefficient finger counting, some different hands, or way, way too many antimagic pits. I got a count of 1 048 575 for 20 fingers.


I'am I missing something? You only need 2 feats, angel blood>angel wings


The Sideromancer wrote:
Danny StarDust wrote:

my babbling:
I've been an aasimar fullplated warpriest with wings in a fairly arcane rich party (i.e. magic potions all over the place and a magus capable of casting fly/overland flight). But the amount of times I rescued the party from antimagic pits, partymembers beying thrown off a cliff, abducted by airborn creatures, etc etc etc is not countable on 4 hands.

Yes, it takes 3 feats, yes it's slower than other forms of flight, yes your flight is pour, BUT it is permanent and not susceptible for anti-magic fields and many..many many many circumstantial situations where casting is no longer an option.

Being able to immediatly dash towards your enemy, regardsless of where they are (higher ground, on roofs, of city walls, otherside of a cliff, behind tables and what not), beats having to cast fly everytime. And like Protoman said, being able to fly (constantly) is so favourable in so many situations.

And besides, a feat should not be as "powerful" as a class ability, otherwise I'd have taken a feat which would grant me evasion for eeeeevery single character I've had.

You either have some inefficient finger counting, some different hands, or way, way too many antimagic pits. I got a count of 1 048 575 for 20 fingers.

Whut?

I've only got 5 fingers on each hand, hence 20+ times I saved my buddies from pits, traps, monsters, mountains, etc, combined.

How...and I am sincere...how did you read my post?

Wind_Paladin wrote:

I'am I missing something? You only need 2 feats, angel blood>angel wings

Yes, you are correct, it takes only 2 feats.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Danny StarDust wrote:

I've only got 5 fingers on each hand, hence 20+ times I saved my buddies from pits, traps, monsters, mountains, etc, combined.

How...and I am sincere...how did you read my post?

He read it nerdily. Binary. Instead of counting fingers, use each finger as a "yes/no" value. With just two fingers, you get four possible values (00, 01, 10, 11). Each additional finger doubles the possible results. 20 fingers gives his number.


The Sideromancer wrote:
Danny StarDust wrote:

I've been an aasimar fullplated warpriest with wings in a fairly arcane rich party (i.e. magic potions all over the place and a magus capable of casting fly/overland flight). But the amount of times I rescued the party from antimagic pits, partymembers beying thrown off a cliff, abducted by airborn creatures, etc etc etc is not countable on 4 hands.

Yes, it takes 3 feats, yes it's slower than other forms of flight, yes your flight is pour, BUT it is permanent and not susceptible for anti-magic fields and many..many many many circumstantial situations where casting is no longer an option.

Being able to immediatly dash towards your enemy, regardsless of where they are (higher ground, on roofs, of city walls, otherside of a cliff, behind tables and what not), beats having to cast fly everytime. And like Protoman said, being able to fly (constantly) is so favourable in so many situations.

And besides, a feat should not be as "powerful" as a class ability, otherwise I'd have taken a feat which would grant me evasion for eeeeevery single character I've had.

You either have some inefficient finger counting, some different hands, or way, way too many antimagic pits. I got a count of 1 048 575 for 20 fingers.

That's the other thing, nonmagical flight is kinda like Combat maneuvers or Illusions.

Combat Maneuvers example
If you GM basically never uses combat maneuvers, then your players probably won't either.
IF your GM uses them constantly, then defenses against them (and using them themselves) will be far more common and precious for PCs (or they'll just go unarmed in their next build).

Illusions Example
Though I'm sure there are more mediums and not just these extremes, you tend to get two vocal groups about illusion spells. On one side you hear "Minor Illusion is always abused!" and on the other side you hear "My illusion spells never work!". For the GM that allows it, illusions can be incredibly powerful and dismantle encounters as foes run for the hills. Or they can be totally useless as the enemies just totally ignore that illusiory dragon you worked so hard on crafting.

Angel Wings
If your GM rarely if ever uses antimagic, then the advantages of nonmagical flight will be lost on players.
If your GM uses (as Sidromancer puts it) "Way too many anti magic pits" then it will be the opposite effect, the advantages from magical flight will be cancelled out by the fact that they're being dispelled at every turn, making things like angel wings become far more precious because of their mundane status rendering them unable to be disabled so easily.

So it's really a "Your Mileage may Vary".

Brolof over here found that his use of angel wings found it that things were flying circles around him with ease.

Danny Stardust found that they were very useful because he was able to save his partners' lives on a regular basis (although danny cited reasons other than just anti magic.)..

And on top of this Metallic Wings exist (although I actually am not a fan of them because I use spheres of might a LOT for designing characters/builds so I'd have to create some kind of natural attack specific character. (and Bestial Training is Gone so I don't even know if I can do that much)

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