Optimizing this fighter


Advice


Having read this

Selgard wrote:

Get off the message boards. :\

Ignore people who tell you not to take a feat because its a "trap".
Ignore people who tell you not to play a class because its "weak".
Ignore people who tell you if you don't have X stat you are ineffective.

There are way too many armchair quarterbacks around here who delight in telling everyone the "right" way to play. I suggest finding your own way to play- that way that gives and brings you enjoyment.

Also, welcome to the game :)

-S

it made me wonder how effective a fighter could be with utterly poorly assigned stats. So as a challenge to all you optimizers I would like to see if anyone can make a fighter with the stats below into an effective martial threat at level 5 (hitting CR equivalent enemies and doing enough damage to drop them in a couple of rounds).

Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con 10 Int 16 Wis: 10 Cha: 18 (20 point buy), assume a trait is dedicated to Diplomacy and Use Magic Device because otherwise these stats make no sense.


Well I would start with a Lore Warden since the build is pretty int focused or actually Tactician since that will get you Diplomacy for free.

Though I am inclined towards lore warden since you don't sacrifice weapon training which you will need to compensate for the mediocre physical stats. At least at 7th the lore warden gets an ability which will offset the stat weakness some in Know Thy Enemy.

However at 5th, there's not much to be said really. You don't even have the stats for some crucial feats. Honestly you'd be a lot better off with a ranger since you could get bonus feats which ignore prerequisites.


Dot


fighter/rogue. 2 handed weapon with power attack. sneak attack will make up for damage. You can level however you want. Maybe even go rogue 5 for extra sneak attack damage. Maybe Dragon Disiple? Quickest entry is Sorcerer 1 (must have Draconic bloodline)>Fighter 4 or anthing else that fights well. Use magic to buff yourself, then go to town.

what you get with DD: HD (d12),2 good saves, average attack progression, extra STR/CON (ability boost)and natural armor. Best for fighters. BTW flying is a class skill. spells per day, Blood of Dragons (increases sorcerer level for bloodline powers), Breath weapon, bite attack, dragonform 1 or 2 a day, wings. (increased movement 90ft.)


Alejandro Acosta wrote:

fighter/rogue. 2 handed weapon with power attack. sneak attack will make up for damage. You can level however you want. Maybe even go rogue 5 for extra sneak attack damage. Maybe Dragon Disiple? Quickest entry is Sorcerer 1 (must have Draconic bloodline)>Fighter 4 or anthing else that fights well. Use magic to buff yourself, then go to town.

what you get with DD: HD (d12),2 good saves, average attack progression, extra STR/CON (ability boost)and natural armor. Best for fighters. BTW flying is a class skill. spells per day, Blood of Dragons (increases sorcerer level for bloodline powers), Breath weapon, bite attack, dragonform 1 or 2 a day, wings. (increased movement 90ft.)

Everything in this post is wrong.


I thought about it and you should go Dragon Disciple ALL THE WAY. Keep increasing your strength as though you were a fighter. The enlarge spell will increase your STR and natural weapon damage at the same time and you get to play something cool.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Alejandro Acosta wrote:

fighter/rogue. 2 handed weapon with power attack. sneak attack will make up for damage. You can level however you want. Maybe even go rogue 5 for extra sneak attack damage. Maybe Dragon Disiple? Quickest entry is Sorcerer 1 (must have Draconic bloodline)>Fighter 4 or anthing else that fights well. Use magic to buff yourself, then go to town.

what you get with DD: HD (d12),2 good saves, average attack progression, extra STR/CON (ability boost)and natural armor. Best for fighters. BTW flying is a class skill. spells per day, Blood of Dragons (increases sorcerer level for bloodline powers), Breath weapon, bite attack, dragonform 1 or 2 a day, wings. (increased movement 90ft.)

Everything in this post is wrong.

Why do you say it's wrong? I gave him 2 different options. I think the Dragon Disciple will be better. Forget about the Rogue/fighter.


A character like this could make a decent general, but not a DPR-focused front line combatant or even a satisfactory defensive tank. If you're super lucky, your GM does what I do and gives +1 point towards raising stats per level instead of +1 to a stat per 4 levels---for instance in my game you could raise strength from 10 to 11 at 1st, to 12 at 2nd, 13 at 3rd (so you could get power attack) and to 14 by 5th level. You could also raise your charisma to 19 at 4th level by spending 4 such points if you saved them. This makes the level advancement attribute bonus a bit more equitable for MAD classes and suboptimal characters like this one.
But looking at what you CAN do---I'd track along the dazzling display to deadly stroke line. You can't qualify yet for anything on the power attack line, or anything on the archer line or two weapon line. You probably want to do the weapon-shield non TWF approach since 2handed isn't going to raise your DPR much anyway and you will desperately need the defense. So max out your intimidation and diplomacy and work mostly as a debuffer in combat.


Viking archetype, for the rage to compensate for the poor offensive stats as well as move-action Intimidate checks. Dazzling Display heading toward Shatter Defenses, etc. at 6.


Does it have to be the fighter class, or do you just mean melee combatant? Those are pretty good stats for a synthesist summoner, for example. If the former, is multi-classing allowed, or do we have to stay single classed fighter?

Also, do I have to be human? I'm assuming the base stats were 16 int, 16 cha, and you put the +2 in charisma.


Alejandro Acosta wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Alejandro Acosta wrote:

fighter/rogue. 2 handed weapon with power attack. sneak attack will make up for damage. You can level however you want. Maybe even go rogue 5 for extra sneak attack damage. Maybe Dragon Disiple? Quickest entry is Sorcerer 1 (must have Draconic bloodline)>Fighter 4 or anthing else that fights well. Use magic to buff yourself, then go to town.

what you get with DD: HD (d12),2 good saves, average attack progression, extra STR/CON (ability boost)and natural armor. Best for fighters. BTW flying is a class skill. spells per day, Blood of Dragons (increases sorcerer level for bloodline powers), Breath weapon, bite attack, dragonform 1 or 2 a day, wings. (increased movement 90ft.)

Everything in this post is wrong.
Why do you say it's wrong? I gave him 2 different options. I think the Dragon Disciple will be better. Forget about the Rogue/fighter.

He wants a fighter build to lvl 5, DD cannot be achieved until a minimum of lvl 6, power Attack requires a STR of 13.

You didn't do what the OP asked, and multiclassing out, while the most viable option, is a cheap way of optimizing this fighter.

Shadow Lodge

going duelest or scholar makes sense for this guy but even without that there are a few feets that would help this guy out a great deal
there was a feat in 3.5 that added int bonus to damage
add the feat "weapon trickery" to add cha bonus to hit
after that focus on feinting and maxamise bluff


To further the Viking archetype idea, you could dip into some rage powers as well by taking say, Reckless Abandon and Inspire Ferocity.

You're not the best by far, but you're solid in melee and you're going to make up for that by making your allies around you better with the above rage power pair while making any witches, inquisitors or dominator casters love you for the debuffs to saves from demoralizing all the enemies.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Alejandro Acosta wrote:

Maybe Dragon Disiple? Quickest entry is Sorcerer 1 (must have Draconic bloodline)>Fighter 4 or anthing else that fights well. Use magic to buff yourself, then go to town.

what you get with DD: HD (d12),2 good saves, average attack progression, extra STR/CON (ability boost)and natural armor. Best for fighters. BTW flying is a class skill. spells per day, Blood of Dragons (increases sorcerer level for bloodline powers), Breath weapon, bite attack, dragonform 1 or 2 a day, wings. (increased movement 90ft.)

Everything in this post is wrong.
Why do you say it's wrong? I gave him 2 different options. I think the Dragon Disciple will be better. Forget about the Rogue/fighter.

He wants a fighter build to lvl 5, DD cannot be achieved until a minimum of lvl 6, power Attack requires a STR of 13.

You didn't do what the OP asked, and multiclassing out, while the most viable option, is a cheap way of optimizing this fighter.

okay so forget about PA for now. The fastest way to qualify for DD is sorcerer 5 or Sorcerer 1/fighter 4. Since he wants a fighter I say go with Sorcerer 1/fighter 4, the DD will beef up his physical stats. He can do Sorcerer 1/ fighter 4 and then pick up DD @ level 6 and go from there.

Liberty's Edge

I would go archer...with a 10 Dex and Con, melee is suicide, especially without the Str for even medium armor...definitely dazzling display...

Ugh.


Dilvias wrote:

Does it have to be the fighter class, or do you just mean melee combatant? Those are pretty good stats for a synthesist summoner, for example. If the former, is multi-classing allowed, or do we have to stay single classed fighter?

Also, do I have to be human? I'm assuming the base stats were 16 int, 16 cha, and you put the +2 in charisma.

It can be any class martial class or race you want apart from summoners who are notorious for their odd relationship with attributes. The point is to determine whether you you need certain stats at certain levels to be effective.

Lantern Lodge

Fighter (Lore Warden)2/ Rogue (Knife Master Scout)3. Charge in to do a SA with the knife. Next turn Spring attack with the longsword in ur off hand and move away from combat. Rinse and repeat.

Shadow Lodge

Wind Chime wrote:
Dilvias wrote:

Does it have to be the fighter class, or do you just mean melee combatant? Those are pretty good stats for a synthesist summoner, for example. If the former, is multi-classing allowed, or do we have to stay single classed fighter?

Also, do I have to be human? I'm assuming the base stats were 16 int, 16 cha, and you put the +2 in charisma.

It can be any class martial class or race you want apart from summoners who are notorious for their odd relationship with attributes.

would you count magus as a martial class

and for race, maybe suli? or one of the variant aasimar that grants a bonus to either dex or str


Lord Foul II wrote:
Wind Chime wrote:
Dilvias wrote:

Does it have to be the fighter class, or do you just mean melee combatant? Those are pretty good stats for a synthesist summoner, for example. If the former, is multi-classing allowed, or do we have to stay single classed fighter?

Also, do I have to be human? I'm assuming the base stats were 16 int, 16 cha, and you put the +2 in charisma.

It can be any class martial class or race you want apart from summoners who are notorious for their odd relationship with attributes.

would you count magus as a martial class

and for race, maybe suli? or one of the variant aasimar that grants a bonus to either dex or str

A Spell Combat focused Magus who is in his enemies face I would count as a martial but if the magus just hangs back and acts as somewhat inferior blaster I wouldn't count it as a martial.

Shadow Lodge

oh of cource, then in that case
magus with the kensi and bladebonded archtypes
free awesome weapon at 3rd lvl,
diminished casting
removed armor proficency
add int bonus(to a max of magus level) to AC,
free weapon focus
take the feat weapon trickery to add cha bonus to hit
take the feat dodge, take the feat combat experties, and the feat web of steel to add your level/2+2 rounded up to your ac as an armor bonus so long as you are weilding your weapom
get magic items that give bonuses to con as a first priority, and str as a second priority
voilia!

Shadow Lodge

Lets see here, with out a dex or strength 13 this will be tough but it can be done.

I would go Free Booter Ranger. Two handed Weapon Style

Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con 10 Int 16 Wis: 10 Cha: 18

1. Weapon Focus: Great Sword, Toughness
2. Power Attack
3. Combat Expertise
5. Improved Trip

AC: 18, to hit: +6(+9 flanking) Damage: +8
Trip: +10

No Magic

A solid amount of damage and power. Team it up with some good wands for hours of fun.

Recommended magic items: Wand of Enlarger person, Wand of Divine Favor, Wand of Bulls Strength, Wand of magic vestment, Wand of keen edge Wand of Shield.

Skills:
Diplomacy: +5+4+4=13
Craft Weapons: +5+3+3=11
Perception: +5+3=8
Survival: +5+3=8
Swim: +5+3=8
Climb:+5+3=8
Acrobatics:+5+3=8
Use Magic Device: +5+4+4=13


No martial class does anything relevant with Int at level 5. None of them. At all.

Cha is only really useful for a Paladin. So, Oath of Vengeance, extra lay on hands*3, for a total of 2 (class) + 3 (level+cha lay on hands) +3= 8 smites, each for +4 to hit, +4 AC, +5 damage. That's seriously worse, on your best day, than having 18 Str and no feat support for fighting.

Int 13 is the usual cutoff point for usefulness, because Combat Expertise. The only vaguely combat relevant int skills are knowledges. And you could maybe cobble something together with Ki-rin Strike at level 5, but...+6 damage, once per turn, still spells "useless".

Liberty's Edge

Pupsocket wrote:

No martial class does anything relevant with Int at level 5. None of them. At all.

Cha is only really useful for a Paladin. So, Oath of Vengeance, extra lay on hands*3, for a total of 2 (class) + 3 (level+cha lay on hands) +3= 8 smites, each for +4 to hit, +4 AC, +5 damage. That's seriously worse, on your best day, than having 18 Str and no feat support for fighting.

Int 13 is the usual cutoff point for usefulness, because Combat Expertise. The only vaguely combat relevant int skills are knowledges. And you could maybe cobble something together with Ki-rin Strike at level 5, but...+6 damage, once per turn, still spells "useless".

...and dead.

Liberty's Edge

Paladin Archer. At least he's got some 'use', and doesn't have to melee. Eldritch Heritage: Stormborn gives 1d6 shocking on his bow a few times a day. (7, 2 rounds each time)

Shadow Lodge

I believe my proposed magus would still be viable, a lot of the builds on this forum seem to be rather half hearted, which dissapoints me


To make this a bit fairer change the stats to (Str:13 Dex: 13 Con 10 Wis:12 Int: 15 Cha:16) that way you still get power attack and the mobility feats as an option, losing power attack/pirana strike was always going to cripple any martial class without some extra source of damage (frostbite, sneak attack, etc).


EDIT: Correction, he can do Sorcerer 1/fighter 1. Originally in 3.5 you needed Arcane spellcasting without preparation, language Draconic and Knowledge Arcana 8 ranks. in PF you only need 5 ranks of knowledge Arcana. Clarification on class skills/cross class skills needed. (I don't see cross class). So, Sorcerer 1/fighter 1/Dragon Disciple 3. even better.
okay so forget about PA for now. The fastest way to qualify for DD is sorcerer 2 or Sorcerer 1/fighter 1. Since he wants a fighter I say go with Sorcerer 1/fighter 1, the DD will beef up his physical stats. He can do Sorcerer 1/ fighter 1 and then pick up DD @ level 3 and go from there.

Liberty's Edge

Wind Chime wrote:
To make this a bit fairer change the stats to (Str:13 Dex: 13 Con 10 Wis:12 Int: 15 Cha:16) that way you still get power attack and the mobility feats as an option, losing power attack/pirana strike was always going to cripple any martial class without some extra source of damage (frostbite, sneak attack, etc).

With that, a dozen builds become viable. I'd still go pally archer...melee with a 10 Con blows unless you kill quick...and he won't.


A fighter with 10s across the physical stats is like a wizard with 10 int. You don't have the con for melee, the strength to qualify for power attack to deal meaningful damage, or the dex to qualify for archery feats.

There's only one way to salvage this as a fighter.

Goblin Crossbowman. +4 racial dex is going to save your array. With the strength penalty you don't want to use a bow, and besides you won't be able to qualify for manyshot without more shopping luck that I'd want to rely on. Crossbow Mastery, though, only needs a 15 dexterity and you can get that at level 4 with no magical help. You need it at level 6. Pump dex at every opportunity.

Your feat plan should look something like this:
1: rapid reload, point blank shot
2: weapon focus heavy crossbow
3: precise shot
4: weapon specialization
5: rapid shot
6: crossbow mastery
7: deadly aim
8: greater weapon focus
9: improved critical
10: critical focus
11: {either of the on-crit feats with an 11 BAB prerequisite}
12: greater weapon specialization
13: {either of the on-crit feats with a 13 BAB prerequisite}
14: critical mastery
15: {any of the on-crit feats with a 15 BAB prerequisite}
...And you pretty much keep taking on-crit stuff.

Alternately instead of deadly aim you can take leadership and get yourself a bard or evangelist cleric cohort (depending on whether you'd rather lose them to a reflex half blast or a fort save or die). You probably will usually not use deadly aim because of your poor accuracy.

Or you can take the easy way out and dip Synthesist Summoner.

Shadow Lodge

heck with those score I will take of the challenge with a straight fighter. Those are lovely.

Fighter 5 - HP: 40 AC:20
1. Toughness, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Power Attack
2. Furious Focus, Bravery
3. Iron Will, Armor Training
4. Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, +1 Str
5. Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Training: Blades

Attack: Greatsword +10, 2d6+12 19-20X2
Saves: Fort: 4 Ref: 4 Will:4

Equipement: Full plate, MW Greatsword, Wand of Shield, Wand of Magic Weapon, Wand of Enlarge Person, Wand of Protection from evil.

Skills:
Diplomacy: 5+3+4=12
Perception: 5+1=6
Know: Dung: 5+2+3=10
Acrobatics: 5+1+3=9
Use Magic device: 5+3+4=12


Alejandro Acosta wrote:

EDIT: Correction, he can do Sorcerer 1/fighter 1. Originally in 3.5 you needed Arcane spellcasting without preparation, language Draconic and Knowledge Arcana 8 ranks. in PF you only need 5 ranks of knowledge Arcana. Clarification on class skills/cross class skills needed. (I don't see cross class). So, Sorcerer 1/fighter 1/Dragon Disciple 3. even better.

okay so forget about PA for now. The fastest way to qualify for DD is sorcerer 2 or Sorcerer 1/fighter 1. Since he wants a fighter I say go with Sorcerer 1/fighter 1, the DD will beef up his physical stats. He can do Sorcerer 1/ fighter 1 and then pick up DD @ level 3 and go from there.

Alejandro, have you actually read the Pathfinder rules? You can't have five ranks in a skill until level 5.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

@Seriphim84:

That's pretty much the build I had in mind, but remember that you can't get Power Attack or Furious Focus until you have 13 STR. You can do that with a +2 belt and the +1 bump at 4th, but to get Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Weapon Specialization, you'll have to pick up a junk feat earlier and retrain it at 4th.

Shadow Lodge

RainyDayNinja wrote:

@Seriphim84:

That's pretty much the build I had in mind, but remember that you can't get Power Attack or Furious Focus until you have 13 STR. You can do that with a +2 belt and the +1 bump at 4th, but to get Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Weapon Specialization, you'll have to pick up a junk feat earlier and retrain it at 4th.

Not that Windchime changed his rules. with a new set of stats. With the originals it is much harder and yeah retraining is a must. but it would be fun to play. I could also see running the original stats with a barbarian who uses spirit totem (that does as much damage as he does) and the superstitious line.


ZanThrax wrote:
Alejandro Acosta wrote:

EDIT: Correction, he can do Sorcerer 1/fighter 1. Originally in 3.5 you needed Arcane spellcasting without preparation, language Draconic and Knowledge Arcana 8 ranks. in PF you only need 5 ranks of knowledge Arcana. Clarification on class skills/cross class skills needed. (I don't see cross class). So, Sorcerer 1/fighter 1/Dragon Disciple 3. even better.

okay so forget about PA for now. The fastest way to qualify for DD is sorcerer 2 or Sorcerer 1/fighter 1. Since he wants a fighter I say go with Sorcerer 1/fighter 1, the DD will beef up his physical stats. He can do Sorcerer 1/ fighter 1 and then pick up DD @ level 3 and go from there.
Alejandro, have you actually read the Pathfinder rules? You can't have five ranks in a skill until level 5.

I forget, I'm used to 3.5. so back to Sor1/ftr4. happy? Even with the new stats make a Dragon Disciple anyway When you reach level 6.


I didn't see the second array.

I think goblin archer is still the way to go, but longbow is possible instead of crossbow. 17 dex after racials will match the standard elite array archer and with 13 base strength your strength is non-negative. A +1 may be worth it at some point to get it to 12 for the damage.


I think you guys are going about this exercise in the wrong way. The person that gave his character those original stats is not an optimizing fiend. The question I would be interested in is could this character be of any use at all as a strait fighter. What would he look like if he lived to see 5th level?

So, keeping that in mind, an optimized non-optimized build might be:

Spoiler:
Wimp the Fighter
Human Fighter 5
NG Medium Humanoid

Init: +0
Senses: Perception +0

DEFENSE
AC: 22 (10, +7 armor, +3 shield, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
Touch: 12
Flat-footed: 21
HP: 44 (5d10+10)
Fort: +5 (4 base, +0 Con, +1 resistance)
Ref: +2 (1 base, +0 Dex, +1 resistance)
Will: +4 (1 base, +0 Wis, +2 feat, +1 resistance)
Defensive Abilities: Bravery (+1 vs. Fear)

OFFENSE
Speed: 20 ft.(30 ft.)
Melee:
+1 Longsword +8 (1d8+4/19-20x2)
MW Lance +6 (1d8/x3)
Ranged:
Longbow +5 (1d8/x3)

STATISTICS
Str: 11 +0 (10 base, +1 level)
Dex: 10 +0 (10 base)
Con: 10 +0 (10 base)
Int: 16 +3 (16 base)
Wis: 10 +0 (10 base)
Cha: 18 +4 (16 base, +2 racial)

BAB: +5; CMB: +5; CMD: 15

Traits: Diplomacy and Use Magic Device (Not sure of the names)

Feats: Dodge, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Weapon Specialization: Longsword

Skills: Diplomacy +13(5r), Handle Animal + 12(5r), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +11(5r), Knowledge (Engineering) +11(5r), Ride +3(5r, -5acp), Use Magic Device +13(5r)

Languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven, Orcish
Special Qualities: +2 to Cha, Bonus Feat, +1 Skill per level
Class Abilities: Armor Training +1, Bravery +1, Weapon Training (Heavy Blades +1)

Equipment:
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
+1 Breastplate (1,350gp)
+1 Heavy Wooden Shield (1,157gp)
+1 Longsword (2,315gp)
Masterwork Lance (310gp)
Dagger (2 gp)
Longbow (100gp)
20 Arrows (1gp)
Explorer's Outfit (0gp)
Backpack, masterwork (50gp)
Bedroll (0.1gp)
Waterskin (1gp)
Wand of Cure Light Wounds 50ch (750gp)
2 Scrolls of Bull's Strength (300gp)
Horse, heavy (combat-trained) (300gp)
Chain Shirt Barding (400gp)

Money: 463.9gp

10,500gp

There you go!

Wimp the Fighter is carrying a medium load, but since he has no Dex to speak of, who cares? Mostly he will ride his horse around and charge into battle with his lance. He will then pull his longsword and lay about him.

Wimp is also quite clever and charming. He knows quite a bit about unusual creatures and construction. He also has an uncanny knack for figuring out magical devices.


The exercise isn't to take a bad stat arrays and make a complete waste of a chair. It's to salvage a bad stat array. If you can't justify why your group would want your character to adventure with them you need to do better. Wimp does not meet that minimum standard.


I think that I answered the original question:

Wind Chime wrote:

Having read this

Selgard wrote:

Get off the message boards. :\

Ignore people who tell you not to take a feat because its a "trap".
Ignore people who tell you not to play a class because its "weak".
Ignore people who tell you if you don't have X stat you are ineffective.

There are way too many armchair quarterbacks around here who delight in telling everyone the "right" way to play. I suggest finding your own way to play- that way that gives and brings you enjoyment.

Also, welcome to the game :)

-S

it made me wonder how effective a fighter could be with utterly poorly assigned stats. So as a challenge to all you optimizers I would like to see if anyone can make a fighter with the stats below into an effective martial threat at level 5 (hitting CR equivalent enemies and doing enough damage to drop them in a couple of rounds).

Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con 10 Int 16 Wis: 10 Cha: 18 (20 point buy), assume a trait is dedicated to Diplomacy and Use Magic Device because otherwise these stats make no sense.

The answer is: No.

I think I am the only one that really tried to answer the original question. Everyone else wants to change the race, or class, or multi-class or change the stats. No. Take the stats and see what you can do.

If you use the second set of stats then that is a new question, and most likely the answer will be "yes", but I haven't seen anyone do that yet either.

Edit: Correction. Seriphim84 did a pretty good job with the second set of stats. Good Job!


And I didn't really waste my time with my build either. I am totally going to use that build as an NPC. Young merchant's son is forced into jousting and sword-play by his father who wants to hobnob with the nobility. Son is handsome and smart, but would rather sit and read books.

It is kinda like the stereotype jock dad that forces his nerdy son into playing sports even though he has no physical ability to speak of. :)


No race was specified. I assumed it was a pre-racial array. If it's not it's like showing up with an 11 int wizard and refusing to multiclass.


The original stats: Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con 10 Int 16 Wis: 10 Cha: 18 (20 point buy).

A 20 point buy means that the Cha has to be 16 with the +2 racial going into charisma. I guess you could go with Human, Half-elf or Half-orc.


Lord Twig wrote:

And I didn't really waste my time with my build either. I am totally going to use that build as an NPC. Young merchant's son is forced into jousting and sword-play by his father who wants to hobnob with the nobility. Son is handsome and smart, but would rather sit and read books.

It is kinda like the stereotype jock dad that forces his nerdy son into playing sports even though he has no physical ability to speak of. :)

That's an interesting concept. But I have to wonder...

(I'm assumng he's skilled enough to get levels in a PC class)

If he is successful in avoiding his training, wouldn't he become a Bard, Magus, Rogue or Alchemist instead? (Which specific class would depend on how often he gets to skip training sessions and what he does with the extra time)

And if he simply can't get away from his forced training, wouldn't he have higher Str and/or Dex?

Shadow Lodge

Lord Twig wrote:

I think that I answered the original question:

Wind Chime wrote:

Having read this

Selgard wrote:

Get off the message boards. :\

Ignore people who tell you not to take a feat because its a "trap".
Ignore people who tell you not to play a class because its "weak".
Ignore people who tell you if you don't have X stat you are ineffective.

There are way too many armchair quarterbacks around here who delight in telling everyone the "right" way to play. I suggest finding your own way to play- that way that gives and brings you enjoyment.

Also, welcome to the game :)

-S

it made me wonder how effective a fighter could be with utterly poorly assigned stats. So as a challenge to all you optimizers I would like to see if anyone can make a fighter with the stats below into an effective martial threat at level 5 (hitting CR equivalent enemies and doing enough damage to drop them in a couple of rounds).

Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con 10 Int 16 Wis: 10 Cha: 18 (20 point buy), assume a trait is dedicated to Diplomacy and Use Magic Device because otherwise these stats make no sense.

The answer is: No.

I think I am the only one that really tried to answer the original question. Everyone else wants to change the race, or class, or multi-class or change the stats. No. Take the stats and see what you can do.

If you use the second set of stats then that is a new question, and most likely the answer will be "yes", but I haven't seen anyone do that yet either.

Edit: Correction. Seriphim84 did a pretty good job with the second set of stats. Good Job!

now that is rude I answered the original question, I answered it twice

I proposed that he should take weapon trickery to add his Cha bonus to hit and after that specialize in feint/bluff
The second time I answered it i made a magus that would actually be pretty powerful


One Scary Dude

Human Rogue (Thug) 1/Fighter (Weapon Master) 4

1st: Bludgeoner, Enforcer
2nd: Weapon Focus
3rd: Dazzling Display
4th: +1 str
5th: Weapon Specialization, Skill Focus (Intimidate)

Taking rogue first means you don't have to waste your traits on diplomacy or use magic device. Instead take unnatural presence (to scare animals and vermin) and bully (for the +1 to intimidate).

Using the original array, You are +16 to your intimidate skill. Using your Dazzling display, you can cause everyone around you to be shaken, and with frightening, you can add a round to the target being shaken. If you get 4 rounds of shaken, you can frighten them instead.

If you hit someone with your warhammer, you can do non-lethal damage, causing them to be shaken for 1d8+4 rounds, or frightened for one round.

Wear the heaviest armor and shield you can manage. Don't worry about being under a heavy load, since your dex doesn't matter anyway.


Lord Twig wrote:

I think you guys are going about this exercise in the wrong way. The person that gave his character those original stats is not an optimizing fiend. The question I would be interested in is could this character be of any use at all as a strait fighter. What would he look like if he lived to see 5th level?

So, keeping that in mind, an optimized non-optimized build might be:

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm with this guy. What's the point in responding to "optimize this fighter" with "play a rogue/sorcerer and go dragon disciple!"

To be effective by lvl 5, one needs to understand what their niche is in combat, thus "optimizing" will look a lot different than with most builds.

That "Weapon Trickery" feat is 3PP material, and I'm not sure if it qualifies, but it would be useful as all get out.

That bump to CHA makes me think that focusing on an Intimidate build would be pretty effective, this fighter would focus more on battlefield control in a way that would be a lot like if magic simply didn't exist at all in the game.

But it does exist, and it is important. Using traits to get specific class skills may not be that useful, but the feat Cosmopolitan can grab you both Diplomacy and Use Magic Device and grab 2 additional languages.

Throwing in extra languages means you can use the feat Antagonize a lot better than most fighters. Without a lot of damage to put out, you have some standard actions to spare.

Combat Expertise is a blatant necessity to this build.

If we could go beyond 5th level, I would say go lore master and max out crafting, go Master Craftsman and make yourself a makeshift Artificer build.

Shadow Lodge

Even without weapon trickery, a Kensi bladebonded magus is still quite a viable melee combatant,

Shadow Lodge

Dotting for interest

Silver Crusade

I like Twiggy's build, although I would either swap out the longsword for a scimitar or swap out Dodge for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and use a bastard sword one-handed. The +1 armor from Dodge isn't going to be game-changing, but the extra 1 damage from the bastard sword might be.

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