Are special abilities affected by the recent casting limit?


Rules Questions


10 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Are special abilities affected by the recent casting limit?

My main concern is ki points for a monk, but the question is also general.

I cannot find anything in the forums about it searching for these key words and feel like it should at least have a thread in here about it.

I feel like I've read somewhere that james jacob stated that the "recent casting limit" is a general limit that applies to all abilities that are on a daily cycle, in order to prevent "abusing" the system.

If I am a monk, and we are attacked at night half way through the night, and I use ki, are those taken away from my daily allotment.

What if I am a sorcerer and I use my SLAs during an interuption?

What if I am a cleric and I use my channels during an interuption?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PRD wrote:
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

Same thing for a magus arcane points [he recover them when memorizing his spells] and several other abilities with a daily use.

As I see it if you have spent some of your power in the last 8 hours you can't recover that part of it as 8 hours or rest or meditation haven't elapsed.

A wizard or magus can delay the time at which he recover his spells and so bypass this problem. A cleric can't (he must pray at fixed times, but he don't need to be rested).

For a monk it is a bit dubious.
He can delay his ki point recovery to get all of them?
If he is suffering for teleportation lag after teleporting to the other side of the world and go to bed at 9.00 AM (but for his body it is 9 PM) and wake at 5 PM, he can recover his Ki points?

My personal interpretation is that the monk recover his Ki point after waking and completing the 8 hours of sleep/meditation, regardless of the local clock [obviously only once/day] and can't delay that recovery.


I always interpreted that spending ki, arcane points and similar resources resets the resting time forcing one to count hours of rest from the last expenditure of such resource.


Should we FAQ this? I haven't found any official say to this in the CRB.


Icyshadow wrote:
Should we FAQ this? I haven't found any official say to this in the CRB.

This is the exact reason I wanted to bring the topic to light. We are having a player claiming that once he finishes his rest, even though he was interupted, because the hours do not need to be consecutive, that he gets them ALL back.

He doesn't believe me that all "per day powers and spells" are affected by the recent casting limit.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would prefer a more concise FAQ request, as per Sean suggestions in this thread, but FAQed.


Diego Rossi wrote:
I would prefer a more concise FAQ request, as per Sean suggestions in this thread, but FAQed.

Hmm I thought my original question is concise :( I specifically tried to make the title / first line question real concise and exact to my point.

Thank you for the FAQ, I hope those question gets answered officially.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We need way more than 3 FAQ requests.


What recent casting limit change do you speak of?


Buri wrote:
What recent casting limit change do you speak of?

From what I've gleaned from this thread, it sounds like any spells and possibly abilities used within the past 8 hours (such as during your 8 hours of sleep) are not renewed with your daily resting habit. I.e. If you are attacked while sleeping and cast spells and finish your rest after, those spells cast during your sleep would not be regained the next day.

However, I would like to see a link to the original post about this, because I could be way off.


For those confused, this thread seems to refer to the "Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions" rules for spells, rather than a "recently" changed rule.

PRD wrote:
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.


Ah, okay. Nothing new here.


Buri wrote:
Ah, okay. Nothing new here.

Yes, nothing new, but also nothing concretely defined.

Also the wording under ki is confusing. It sounds like they refresh just like normal spells, to me. Others do not see it this way though.


What's not clear about "spells cast in the last 8 hours count toward your daily limit?"


Buri wrote:
What's not clear about "spells cast in the last 8 hours count toward your daily limit?"

The question is about special abilities, not spells.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I only see "Wizard". Not Monk. Sounds like you're safe.


Recent casting applies to spells, not other abilities. As Nefreet pointed out it also only applies to Wizards. If Paizo intends for it to apply more broadly they should issue an FAQ entry about it.

Sczarni

No need for a FAQ lol, it applies to spells cast, nothing about abilities.


I'm just saying. If it applies to others then why don't they even mention sorcerers? That would take an FAQ.

Sczarni

I would assume it at the min applies to anyone that prepares spells or knows spells.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This whole thing is news to me anyways. I just heard about it two days ago from a fellow player, so forgive me if it is written elsewhere, but the quote above specifically says, "Wizard", so Sorcerors would be unaffected.

Sczarni

It's really kind of a moot issue in most cases as you generally need 8hrs of rest to prepare spells, I'm not sure how this really comes into play as an issue....

Also

Quote:
Recent Casting Limit: Any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer's or bard's daily limit.
Quote:
Recent Casting Limit: As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.

Source here

I'm really not sure what kind of mountain you're making out of this ant hill though, as it seems pretty clear it doesn't really affect wizards or sorcerers, the only people it really has a chance of affecting are clerics who could convievably cast say before dawn, then when they do their dawn commune with a diety the diety says "I'm sorry but you've recently invoked the power of restoration, please come back tomorrow"

As every other class seems to clearly not be affected any differently than they were before...


I don't know what JJ told you, but the RAW gives no reason to think that Ki Pool suffers the type of '8 hours without use of this ability' restriction that Wizard casting has. Neither for any other X/day ability, unless something specific says otherwise for it.

Cleric casting doesn't suffer that, and even if the Wizard wording was transposed to the Cleric, Channel wouldn't interfere with spell preparation becaue it isn't spellcasting (likewise if a Wizard has Channel Energy, it wouldn't interfere with spell preparing other than interrumpting sleep), and Channel itself has no such requirement, it just kicks in X times/day and that's that.

SLAs seem the only unclear point to me, but this is only for classes like Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric where 'rest interruption' is already in play.
SLAs count as spellcasting, but unless ALL spellcasting during that 8 hours (e.g. via mystic theurge multiclassing) is supposed to interfere with wizard spell slot preparation, i don't think SLAs would either... THe point is that the wizard spell slot is being used (by casting) and needs sufficient 'rest' before it can be used again, that is why it is on a per-slot basis, so other classes' spells (or SLAs) that CAN'T fit in that slot can hardly count against that slot... I mean, there are actually SLAs that are not spells-in-a-can, but are unique class abilities so how can that 'count' as a wizard spell slot? If you imagine a multiclass with two classes subject to wizard 'rest interrumption' then if ALL spells/SLAs interfered then just casting half their spells (one class' full allotment) would negate BOTH class' casting (assuming they have identical number of slots). Regardless, nothing prevents the 'refresh' of SLAs/day, you get the SLAs regardless.

If it wasn't clear, it is only the last 8 hours being free of spellcasting that matter, so if you are interrumpted in your sleep and cast some spells and then go back to sleep, those slots can't be re-prepared when preparing spells immediately after waking... but once 8 hours pass from the 'midnight casting' those slots are then free to prepare. i don't believe you even need any extra rest, and after you wake and prepare the initial set i believe you could even cast some spells and then prepare the 'missed' spellslots, you would have recently cast some more spells (from the new day) but those ARE counting for the daily spell limit so the 'missed' spellslots should be legit to prepare/spontaneously cast later on.

Sczarni

I realize you were probably typing it all while I was typing mine, but click on the link to go to the PRD where it specifically calls it out for basically all spell casting classes.


Yup, now edited for the Sorceror stuff...
The RAW is kind of weird for Divine, since Spontaneous Divine don't 'prepare' spells at all,
per RAW I would say that spontaneous divine casters EFFECTIVELY don't have the 'interruption rule' in play,
since all it says is 'at the time of preparation, spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the number of spells prepared'.
It should probably be Errata'd to more clearly apply to both preparation and spontaneous.
(Magus should get the Wizard wording too, or better, just fix the Core wording to cover all potential Casters, Spontaneous and Prepared, Arcane and Divine and even future Psychic Magic Users)

All the non-spellcasting stuff seems pretty clear per RAW, about Cleric's fixed daily prayer time, given that they CAN prepare slots later on (with 8 hrs of no spellcasting), they should be able to recover those slots later, although they have to suffer the reduced number of usable spells until they can have 8 hours of no spellcasting.

I'm not really sure the point of the fixed daily prayer time anyways given the standard ability to prepare additional slots later on. I'm not sure if spending that 1 hour praying is an actual requirement to prepare spells later on in the day (it doesn't seem to exactly say that), and even if that is a requirement, I don't know if preparing ANY spell slots is necessary to meet the requirement, i.e. just 1 hour of prayer counts. Worst case, it seems like preparing just 1 1st level spell would count, and you can prepare the rest at your leisure thru-out the day. Since that works so similarly to Wizards, the whole fixed prayer time thing seems to lose alot of it's importance.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Apparently there is a "Recent Casting Limit" for clerics as well, in the Magic chapter, under "Preparing Divine Spells".

The monk is still safe, though. No FAQ needed. Since this is the first time in 8 months of me visiting the forums that I've even heard of this detail, I'd hardly call it a "Frequently Asked Question".

Moving on.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quandary wrote:
If it wasn't clear, it is only the last 8 hours being free of spellcasting that matter, so if you are interrumpted in your sleep and cast some spells and then go back to sleep, those slots can't be re-prepared when preparing spells immediately after waking... but once 8 hours pass from the 'midnight casting' those slots are then free to prepare. i don't believe you even need any extra rest, and after you wake and prepare the initial set i believe you could even cast some spells and then prepare the 'missed' spellslots, you would have recently cast some more spells (from the new day) but those ARE counting for the daily spell limit so the 'missed' spellslots should be legit to prepare/spontaneously cast later on.

You recover your spell slot all at once and only once day. If you had a fight at 1 AM and what to recover all your spells you have to wait till after 9 AM to recover all your spell slots.

There isn't a "I recover 3 spell slots at 6 AM, 3 at 9 am and the others at 1 pm" option.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quandary wrote:

Yup, now edited for the Sorceror stuff...

The RAW is kind of weird for Divine, since Spontaneous Divine don't 'prepare' spells at all,
per RAW I would say that spontaneous divine casters EFFECTIVELY don't have the 'interruption rule' in play,
since all it says is 'at the time of preparation, spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the number of spells prepared'.
It should probably be Errata'd to more clearly apply to both preparation and spontaneous.

All the non-spellcasting stuff seems pretty clear per RAW, about Cleric's fixed daily prayer time, given that they CAN prepare slots later on, they should be able to recover those slots later, although they have to suffer the reduced number of usable spells for (up to) 8 hours though.

I'm not really sure the point of the fixed daily prayer time anyways given the standard ability to prepare additional slots later on. I'm not sure if spending that 1 hour praying is an actual requirement to prepare spells later on in the day (it doesn't seem to exactly say that), and even if that is a requirement, I don't know if preparing ANY spell slots is necessary to meet the requirement, i.e. just 1 hour of prayer counts. Worst case, it seems like preparing just 1 1st level spell would count, and you can prepare the rest at your leisure thru-out the day. Since that works so similarly to Wizards, the whole fixed prayer time thing seems to lose alot of it's importance.

Preparing spells and restoring slots are 2 different things. You restore your slots once a day, but you can prepare your spells multiple times a day if you leave open slots.


Preparing Spells is what is relevant, nothing else is affected by Recent Casting Limit:

Quote:
Recent Casting Limit: As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.

That kicks in when they prepare spells, which they can do multiple times during the day. That they previously did so when the 8hr Recent Casting Limit (from the previous day's spellcasting) was still in effect doesn't seem to impose any ongoing limit on future preparation, the rule applies to what you can do when preparing at that time. The Recent Casting Limit rule doesn't convert those spell slots into 'used spell slots' for the whole day, it is just a limit on preparing those slots "at the time of preparation", as it states.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PRD wrote:

Spell Preparation Time: After resting, a wizard must study his spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If he wants to prepare all his spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of his daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

Spell Selection and Preparation: Until he prepares spells from his spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that he already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, he chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that he has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, he can repeat the preparation process as often as he likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. He cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.

The rules clearly treat differently preparing spells the first time, when you can replace unused spells and recover your slots and later in the day.

Saying that you can recover further slots later in the day is clearly stretching the rules and trying to weasel out of the limit of "you recover your spells only once a day".


It sounds like you are merging these concepts of 'recovering slots' and 'preparing' them.
Recent Casting Limit ONLY prevents you from preparing them at the time, it doesn't change the status of the slot,
doesn't prevent the slot from being 'refreshed' or make it count as 'used'.
So I don't see how Recent Casting Limit preventing you from preparing X spell slot at the time impacts your ability to later prepare that spellslot, any more than Aunty Budge giving you THAT LOOK that means you shouldn't prepare X spell slot in her sight does... The slot simply remains unprepared, whether that was willing or unwilling isn't a factor by RAW, so it remains ready to prepare later (when you can do so).

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

correct, and you're still limited by your spells per day limit.

I don't see anything in this thread that suggests a way of gaming it to get more. And if there is, they're doing it wrong.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PRD wrote:
Recent Casting Limit: Any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer's or bard's daily limit.
PRD wrote:
Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before.
PR wrote:
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
PRD wrote:

Preparing Wizard Spells

A wizard's level limits the number of spells he can prepare and cast. His high Intelligence score might allow him to prepare a few extra spells. He can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward his daily limit. To prepare a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level.

PRD wrote:
Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
PRD wrote:
A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

The rules say very clearly that you have a daily limit to the spell you have in a day and that the spells you have used in the las 8 hours before recovering your spells count against the day daily limit.

There is no room to say "I will prepare my spells at 8 am, but the spell I used at 4 AM will be prepared at 12 AM". as Quandary say.

You get back your spell slots once. You can leave some of the open, but you don't get some of them back now, some later.


So my summoner is unaffected. Woot!

Sczarni

I would just assume the spell casters all follow the same rules based off if they cast like a sorc, wiz, or cleric lol

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Buri wrote:
So my summoner is unaffected. Woot!

Oh yes, the spell section on the summoner class don't say anything about recovering your spells. So you don't recover them at all.

Must be interesting living that way.

[You get what you give]

lantzkev wrote:
I would just assume the spell casters all follow the same rules based off if they cast like a sorc, wiz, or cleric lol

I think I have seen that text in some corner of the rules for the summoner too, but I don't recall its position.


Nope. Instead I just do it. I don't even need rest, booya!

Quote:
A summoner can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level each day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 2–7.

Sczarni

just like oracles witches magus etc aren't "listed" it's chassis for casting should be considered affected. Not that it matters too terribly much as to get new spells you have to rest for 8hrs.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Are special abilities affected by the recent casting limit? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.