Your GM gives your this info... [Character Build]

[Scott_UAT]

So this is a thought experiment. Your GM tells you that you are building a character of an unknown class.

This class has the following qualities:

Medium BAB (As Rogue)

d8 HD

Monk AC Bonus

WIS Based Characters (One damaging)

You are designed to be a melee character

2 + Int skill points

Ranger spells

What feat trees would you suggest utilizing? (Lets say you're level 10 for the sake of debate)

[ShadowcatX]

I wouldn't. I don't like control freak DMs.

As to feat trees, probably weapon focus, maybe toughness or dodge.

More likely, spell focus (necromancy), improved spell focus (necromancy) and an elf with dumped constitution and wisdom (and played appropriately for a dumped wisdom) just to make sure the DM enjoyed me playing his gotcha class as much as I enjoyed playing it.

[Scott_UAT]

Oh it's for a class we are playtesting. We full well know what the class is.

[Ascalaphus]

Could you elaborate a bit on what the class is supposed to be?

[Bearded Ben]

What does "WIS Based Characters (One damaging)" mean? What weapons does the class get? (It looks like a monk archetype that swaps flurry for ranger spells, so the monk guides would probably help.)

[Scott_UAT]

@Ascalaphus
Unfortunately beyond that I'm afraid I cannot elaborate. I am currently under NDA.

Thanks Bearded Bed. I'll consult those.
It's a damage based ability along the same veins as smite evil or challenge.

I can say that it is not an archetype however.

[Crosswind]

<edited because apparently double post.>

[wraithstrike]

It really depends on how much damage wisdom provides. If it is similar to smite then it becomes the first or second stat. If it is only used for spellcasting, and the damage is not that great then wisdom is the third or 4th stat

Using 20 point buy--wis equals smite level damage.

str 14

dex 13

con 14

wis 16

int 9

cha 8

------------------
If wis does not equal smite level damage.

str 16

dex 13

con 14

wis 14

int 9

cha 8

Use two handed weapons since they do damage, but are not feat intensive.

[Crosswind]

So the questions I'd need to have answered are:

1.) What role in the party am I trying to fill?

2.) Is there anything special (such as a rogue's flanking) that I need to be able to do in order to maximize my capabilities?

Edit: Because, to be honest, Wisdom doesn't do @#$%all for you, feat-wise. Only feats that matter for it are monk-related. Nor are there ranger-spells.

So basically you're asking, "What feats would you take for a melee character with 3/4 BAB and low hit points".

To which I would say: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, etc, are always good.

-Cross

[Psion-Psycho]

Since there is no list of abilities known ill go off my knowledge of both monk and rogue and say relatively equal parts dex and wis utilizing the 2weapon feat chain along with crane style.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, there's not really much anyone can tell you without more info. I understand that there's an NDA and all but essentially what you've thrown out is "How do you build a Non-Sneak Attacking Rogue/Flurry-less Monk with very limited spells but no skills", to which there's not really much to say except generic "Using a 2H weapon and the Feats that complement or play off of such (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Combat Maneuvers, etc.) would probably be the ideal to offset your lack of BaB."

Also, if it works exactly like the Monk's AC bonus, upping your AC would be a must.

From what little info though that's been provided, there's not much to go on. d8 HD/Medium BaB/2+Int Skills/4 level casting/One specific class feature doesn't say much about the character except that he'd better have some other neato class features to make up for the fact that he's got low HD, lower than normal attack bonuses, likely low AC, and no good spells to help him be a melee character (like a Magus gets), and yet still doesn't have many skills to make him a good skill monkey.

[Jarl]

I'd probably be looking at something like:

1. Dodge or Toughness
3. Weapon Focus
5. Power Attack
7. Furious Focus
9. whatever improved the Wisdom damage ability

Hard to know though without more info.

[Scott_UAT]

Thanks guys. Sorry I can't give more. I guess a better name would be "Are there any good Wisdom based feats for a melee character".

[Fergie]

Scott_UAT wrote:

So this is a thought experiment. Your GM tells you that you are building a character of an unknown class.

This class has the following qualities:

Medium BAB (As Rogue)

d8 HD

Monk AC Bonus

WIS Based Characters (One damaging)

You are designed to be a melee character

2 + Int skill points

Ranger spells

I think this is impossible to attempt because this class as presented is unplayable.

Medium BAB and d8 are a fairly weak way to start off a melee class.
Monk AC bonus REALLY sucks! It means you won't have armor, and even with a great Dex and Wis, your AC will still be crap.
Perhaps the wisdom based thing would help - can I add wis to hit and damage? Does it replace Str or Dex?
2 skill points, and I'm already MAD? (Multiple Ability score Dependent)
Ranger spells might help a little, but this class needs some serious help to even reach monk levels.

[Kudaku]

Scott_UAT wrote:

Thanks guys. Sorry I can't give more. I guess a better name would be "Are there any good Wisdom based feats for a melee character".

Guided Hand provides Wisdom modifier to hit with your deity's favored weapon, but it has some requirements (specifically Channel Energy) that probably won't go down too well with this class.

I'm guessing the monk-like AC bonus doesn't stack with armor?

[noretoc]

Fergie wrote:

I think this is impossible to attempt because this class as presented is unplayable.

I'm pretty sure I could play it. Yup, just wrote in on my sheet. Nothing caught on fire. It's playable.

I would take standard feats. PA or Dodge tree. If its a playtest, might as well see how it is without anything special.

[Fergie]

noretoc wrote:

Fergie wrote:

I think this is impossible to attempt because this class as presented is unplayable.

I'm pretty sure I could play it. Yup, just wrote in on my sheet. Nothing caught on fire. It's playable.

I would take standard feats. PA or Dodge tree. If its a playtest, might as well see how it is without anything special.

Sorry, I didn't mean that it literally could not be played, just that it was woefully underpowered by PC class standards. And hey, I'm probably missing some important aspect that isn't being disclosed.

It is just that I have really been trying to make a good monk lately, and came up with what I thought was a damn good build. High str, high wis, and the ability to power attack and later trip with a ransuer! Good times! But then I realized that there was no one in the group to cast mage armor on me. For the first several levels, I had a 14 or 15 AC - not a viable melee character. Without mage armor, you need a high dex, and weapon finesse, and you can't deal much damage... so you end up with an average AC, and crappy damage. Not much of a melee character.

If you want to judge a melee character compare it with a full BAB character with a greatsword and full plate. No feats, special class abilities, just ability scores, the sword and full plate. If you can't match that damage and AC, you are not good in melee. Even if you can match it, you are still worse then a smiting paladin, a ranger facing favored enemy, or a fighter with his specialized weapon.

[Kudaku]

@Fergie

I can't help but feel you're ignoring other aspects of the game, saves and movement speed for instance. A level 1 fighter with a greatsword is slow and will have a terrible armor check penalty. He'll probably have a decent fortitude save, with reflex and will saves struggling to keep up.

Compare him to the monk who's benefiting from having no ACP and overall excellent saves.

Mind that I'm not arguing that the monk is a stronger class than the monk, but I do think your comparison model misses important variables.

[Petty Alchemy]

Melee classes have either: Full BAB or a spell list going up to 6 (ex Magus/Inquisitor).

So why doesn't this?

[Dark servitude]

Rogue doesn't get fighter BAB. But they can still sneak attack flanked foes which boosts more damage. Id like to know more about this class, looks interesting so far. Post the class when its finished plz :D

[Petty Alchemy]

There should be a subclause of Godwin's Law for bringing up the rogue in a class design discussion.

[Fergie]

Kudaku wrote:

@Fergie

I can't help but feel you're ignoring other aspects of the game, ... more

I see your point, and feel that monks can be a fully playable class. It just takes a little party support (mage armor for example). To be a "melee" character however, requires decent enough defenses to survive trading full attacks with a foe, and decent enough attacks to be relevant - that is, make trading full attacks with you a bad idea for most foes. You don't have to be great at either of these things, and if you have enough other abilities, you can get away with being moderate at these things.

The class described by the OP has one of the worst AC's in the game, the worst skill points in the game, no way of making up for its 3/4 BAB, and some of the weakest spells in the game.

Again, I withhold final judgement since we don't know all the info, but as described in the first post, the class does not qualify as a PC class, and I can't offer help to improve it into something survivable.

[Dark servitude]

Oh god forbid saying rogue. Rogue rogue rogue. R.....o.....g.....u.....e.....rogue.

If its a caster monk wooo.

[Scott_UAT]

Dark servitude wrote:

Rogue doesn't get fighter BAB. But they can still sneak attack flanked foes which boosts more damage. Id like to know more about this class, looks interesting so far. Post the class when its finished plz :D

For sure. We will be releasing it in our "Heroes of the East III" book.

You guys have given us a lot to think about regarding it, particularly to damage scaling. We've tweaked something and I think it will actually play a bit better now thanks to you guys.

One thing I can reveal is that even though it has 2 + Int skill points it won't suffer due to a class skill that boosts certain class skills in certain situations. (Maybe not to rogue levels but pretty far up there)

AC suffers a bit when you go melee. (An alt has the option for heavy armor at the cost of the monk AC bonus and some other stuff changes as well) The ranger spells don't do a lot to AC (I think it is only Aspect of the Bear that provides an AC bonus and that is only a +2). I asked for melee feat lists but some of our EARLY builds were ranged builds (a little less MAD).

I'll toy with full BAB but I think that's where the ranger's spell list shines. An HP buff might be more of whats in order.

[Dark servitude]

If this is a rogue that is actually wisdom base....and gets spells.....I love you.

[Scott_UAT]

Much more related to samurai & druid.