|
A lot of people in this thread need to step back, and re-evaluate why they do this (hobby). It's a game, in a shared world, and no one is special in it. SO just go with the flow and have fun while you can, yeah?
Except for the people who make it possible for everyone else to have fun, of course.
Look, there will always be "workhorse" GMs, and that's great. Personally, I'm not one of them. I run Society stuff because there aren't enough dedicated GMs to go around, and so everyone (with a shred of competence) needs to take a turn.
Considering how many people utterly refuse that duty, though, I feel like there should be recognition made of the people who take their turns for the sake of the community.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
|
I like the idea of boons for reaching a star. Perhaps a race that has been offered in the past but is no longer available, or a boon for something simple, like a one use reroll that can be stacked with the shirt reroll or perhaps an upgrade of a weapon to be of a certain material?
Wouldn't cost anything for Paizo and would be a good incentive. Perhaps better boons for the higher stars, with You Be Goblin for reaching 5 stars!!!
|
|
I like the idea of boons for reaching a star. Perhaps a race that has been offered in the past but is no longer available, or a boon for something simple, like a one use reroll that can be stacked with the shirt reroll or perhaps an upgrade of a weapon to be of a certain material?
Wouldn't cost anything for Paizo and would be a good incentive. Perhaps better boons for the higher stars, with You Be Goblin for reaching 5 stars!!!
Hmm, old races ... that works. What was the first super-exclusive GenCon race? Was it Fetchling? Has it been long enough that we could start letting a few of those leak into play under high-star GMs? I think that's a damn fine idea.
|
|
What if, after you run the same scenario for the third time, you get a credit at the store good for one free scenario? You're demonstrating that you're getting mileage out of them--that's somewhere between 9 and 21 players that were entertained by you over the span of 12-ish hours--and that builds up some goodwill amongst the GMs who are willing to keep re-running things.
Edit: Oh, oh! How about this? After you run the scenario for the third time, if you purchased it--i.e. if you paid money for it, rather than getting it free from an organizer, which is presumably something noted on your account history--you get the price "refunded" in store credit! You're demonstrating that Paizo is better served by giving you more scenarios than keeping your $4.
Edit edit: It won't even require a lot of tech work--a task that runs once a day (or once a week or whatever) could query the database for the initial list, screen out people who've already been rewarded, then compare to account history. Or whatever; I'm not big on database protocols, but the point is it doesn't have to be part of the reporting process if that would mean a lot of work from the web team; the information is all there already.
|
Personally, I would like to go with something along the lines of:
1 Star: a free reroll 1/game. This does stack with the free reroll for having a Paizo shirt or other product, and can also be used for any roll, such as a d6 for damage or a d8 on healing, but can not be used at the same time as any other reroll.
2 star: maybe a single small boon, say maybe the ability to use all Know checks untrained, or the ability to for example begin new characters at level 2, as if they had accomplished First Steps, (Level 2, 3xp, 6 Fame, 6 PP, 1,387 GP).
3 star: an additional race or to have one of your characters receive a small title within their faction, (brother/elder for Lantern Lodge, Silver Crusader for Silver Crusade) without needing the Fame requirement.
4 star: a discount when purchasing scenarios
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know someone suggested it on the first page, but I think if you are going to get an idea of what to give people:
1 Star: Common boon sheet, either the Trio Kitsune/Wayang/Nagaji (seems like this goes out a fair bit) or just ONE of the three.
2 Star: Elemental Races (ifrit, slyph, so forth)
3 Star: Dhampir (Or something equally odd and rare)
4 Star: Suli or Vishkanya
5 Star: A very, rare boon sheet, like Grippli or a new one that is ONLY available to 5 stars (Android has been mentioned a couple of times by people, but really just something special)
|
|
Scarred witch doctor isn't a legal resource :-p
Well no, but neither are orcs, currently.
No orcs. Please at least keep the line drawn at evil races.
And, yes, I realize goblins are evil. I'm not happy about those, either.
BUT I WANTS TO PLAYZ TEH DROW
Seriously, though, as much as I enjoy a good redemption story, I agree that the fully evil races (such as Goblin) should be kept to a minimum. If races were authorized for this project, it should be things that would at least make a certain amount of sense.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
|
Whatever the race boons would be, I would think they would change according to what is currently available vs. what was before and what has not been at all.
I think the higher star boons (4 and 5) would be some of the lesser evil races, like the Kobold and the You Be Goblin boon, maybe even a Mite!!!
Mite... errr, might be fun!!
|
|
What if, after you run the same scenario for the third time, you get a credit at the store good for one free scenario? You're demonstrating that you're getting mileage out of them--that's somewhere between 9 and 21 players that were entertained by you over the span of 12-ish hours--and that builds up some goodwill amongst the GMs who are willing to keep re-running things.
Edit: Oh, oh! How about this? After you run the scenario for the third time, if you purchased it--i.e. if you paid money for it, rather than getting it free from an organizer, which is presumably something noted on your account history--you get the price "refunded" in store credit! You're demonstrating that Paizo is better served by giving you more scenarios than keeping your $4.
I like this idea.
For DMs who do not perform the PFS 'marketing' function for Paizo, paying for PFS modules makes sense. (Example: a DM like me who might acquire PFS modules 'just' to run for a home game, the same way I'd acquire Adventure Paths or other Paizo products).
For DMs who put in the time, effort, expense, and hassle of DM'ing for the public as part of Paizo's marketing program, however, a 'rebate' of the cost of purchasing the promotional material (the PFS scenario) after a certain number of times running the session seems like both a fair reward for the DM and a sensible marketing investment by Paizo.
I'd be interested in reading multi-star DMs' feedback on this idea. Do multi-starred DMs already receive most of their scenarios free? If not, would this be a useful reward?
Edit: Now, hopefully, with 10% greater clarity.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let's imagine, for a minute, two hypothetical people. Al is pretty new at PFS. He's got his first PC up to third level. Beth is more active, having GMed 7 or 8 sessions. She has a character at 7th level and a second character at 4th.
I would like to think that if I sit down to play PFS with Todd and Andy and Thea and with Al and Beth, that the high-star GMs would not have super re-rolls or super-PCs or any other mechanical benefit that will help make the newer players feel left out.
As a matter of fact, I'd rather that any thank-yous from Paizo not affect our PCs at all. We get enough of those for GMing conventions. (Really. I GM at conventions far more often than I start a new 1st-level PC. I can ladle four or five boons onto a brand new character, and it will be a lot spiffier than Al's or Beth's character. Let's not make the situation worse by giving GMs morepower-ups for characters.)
It seems unseemly to say how I'd like to be thanked, but I'm not always the seemliest. I would prefer that any thank-yous that Paizo sends make it either (a) easier to play, like getting first dibs for seats at high-demand venues like Gen Con, or (b) easier to GM, like free full-size pdfs of maps from this month's scenarios.
|
|
Let's imagine, for a minute, two hypothetical people. Al is pretty new at PFS. He's got his first PC up to third level. Beth is more active, having GMed 7 or 8 sessions. She has a character at 7th level and a second character at 4th.
I would like to think that if I sit down to play PFS with Todd and Andy and Thea and with Al and Beth, that the high-star GMs would not have super re-rolls or super-PCs or any other mechanical benefit that will help make the newer players feel left out.
As a matter of fact, I'd rather that any thank-yous from Paizo not affect our PCs at all. We get enough of those for GMing conventions. (Really. I GM at conventions far more often than I start a new 1st-level PC. I can ladle four or five boons onto a brand new character, and it will be a lot spiffier than Al's or Beth's character. Let's not make the situation worse by giving GMs morepower-ups for characters.)
It seems unseemly to say how I'd like to be thanked, but I'm not always the seemliest. I would prefer that any thank-yous that Paizo sends make it either (a) easier to play, like getting first dibs for seats at high-demand venues like Gen Con, or (b) easier to GM, like free full-size pdfs of maps from this month's scenarios.
This is why I like the idea of race boons. They don't have to be "power ups"--in theory, races are balanced, and should only add variety, not power.
In theory. But that's why you'd have to pick races carefully.
|
|
While I don't have a horse in the race so to speak.. I'm with Chris to be honest. We already have a few threads complaining about how much GMs get already, so to publicly ask for more is only going to perpetuate that attitude.
Give us the advance seating as a thank you... or the maps.. that would work
|
|
I think the easy answer would be some Paizo store credit, maybe $10 per star. The truth is, if you run 10 tables to get one star, you probably brought in much more then $10 in business from those players (if you didn't spend at least that yourself.) I don't think this would be life changing, but I think it would be a simple thanks from Paizo for helping the game be what it is.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Again at star levels I think is meh. But how much you DM in a time span.
That was my original suggestion, last year: every month that you run (and report) some thresh-hold number of games (let's say 5), Paizo would drop a map PDF into your downloads.
It's a little more work for Paizo -- both in terms of preparing the full-size map as an independent product, and writing the code that recognizes the thresh-hold being met and dropping the maps every month -- but it rewards currently active GMs, no matter their star level.
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
Again at star levels I think is meh. But how much you DM in a time span.That was my original suggestion, last year: every month that you run (and report) some thresh-hold number of games (let's say 5), Paizo would drop a map PDF into your downloads.
My initial reaction to this is somewhat negative. For a lot of GMs I'd guess that running five games in a month might happen if you're GMing at a con, but otherwise isn't that likely to occur; even if you're one of the mainstream GMs at your local game store you probably want to play occasionally. So a reward system that would exclude those guys doesn't sound like a particularly good idea - there are already enough complaints about boons, etc., not being available unless you attend a convention.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
All right, John.
Reduce the thresh-hold to three, or write the website code to drop maps in whenever the GM gets at least five games reported, so that a GM still gets rewarded if it takes her three months to get that.
The point is to reward continual GMing, rather than passing big mile-markers.
|
|
All right, John.
Reduce the thresh-hold to three, or write the website code to drop maps in whenever the GM gets at least five games reported, so that a GM still gets rewarded if it takes her three months to get that.
The point is to reward continual GMing, rather than passing big mile-markers.
If you really run that often, I am deeply impressed, and I'm not just saying that--that's an impressive level of commitment. We have a few GMs in this region who are that in to it, and that's awesome. I'd love to see some sort of reward for them.
The issue, though, is getting the "little guy" more interested in GMing. This is why I've been proposing tiered rewards. Star tier is the easiest, because it requires no work on Paizo's part, but I'd be willing to work with regular games too--or maybe to compromise, require both; you have to run a certain amount of games to get the reward activated, but then run X games a month to keep it active.
|
|
If I got a boon for Dming 5 games a month I would most liekly give it away the next time I GMed. So people that do not go to cons could still get one
Now I did not say in a month, a week, day, or decade. I said in a vague timespan. Heck it could be 3 months, a year. I think a boone emailed to you would be a great payment. You are Dming enough to promote the game like a con would. It is not over powering since they already give them away. It would give peopel that cry about not being able to go to cons a way to get boones. I see it as a win/win/win.
I have yet to read any legitimate reason why this would be bad for society play or paizo.
|
|
you think the boones is what drive people to attend conventions?
I am sorry, but I feel that is near the bottom of peoples priorities.
There are two assumptions with your statement. One is that giving boones for uber DMs would lower con attendence, and that Paizo wants you to attend cons VS playign elsewhere.
Lets entertain that since it is a valid assumption. Ok so less people attend cons at the expense more people attent local games. Local games are not as frequent(you can play 3 con games in one day, store games are usually 1 a day). The reason this matter is because players are brought into an area to buy merchandise more often. If I go to a con I will may something, if i go to a store I may buy something at the same chance about. Well if I go to the game store 8 times in a month because aswesome sause Chris Mortika is Dming I have 8 chance to buy something vs 1 to 3 at the con. So I will end up buying more if the events are spread out equaling to more profit for paizo(plus my disposable income is greater over a month vs a weekend). I worked heavily in marketing for stores the more time people expotnentialy increase the liklihood they would purchase items. For video games where I worked in your chances of purchaing a game doubled every time you walked through the electronics department. As a vendor for these games my job was to place adverts at the front of the store to lure people back there. This would follow that same example.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I can only speak to what the campaign leadership has posted, repeatedly.
It is in Paizo's interests to get players to attend conventions. That is the sole reason for the convention boons. They want people to GM at conventions, so GMs get nicer boons than players.
It doesn't matter whether I think it's effective. The PFS campaign leadership does.
If I had to take a guess, I would guess that they think that playing at conventions leads to more play at local game store game days and home-based PFS play.
|
|
I understand, but companies make mistakes all the time. Look they change things like magic knack. I have only like 4 years experience in marketing, but I am trying to apply the experience I have into paizo's favor by providing logical understandings of why to do it.
Now the flaw in my assumption is that I assume setting these things will increase the amount people DM. If they fail to improve the amount of store games then it is not worth it. Although I think if you put something people want infront them they may do that extra to get it. IE a kitsune boone for 15 games in 3 months. Someone that really wants that boone would be inclined to DM a few extra games for it.
|
Also, conventions provide far more visibility for Pathfinder than other outlets. Conventions draw all types of gamers who might see all the PFS activity and be drawn in. You can argue similar for stores, but not for the numbers of players all at once, in one place. Also, folks notice the amount of activity going on at conventions. It looks good for PFS to have lots of tables there.
Also, attending conventions costs more money than other venues. I believe Paizo wants to acknowledge this by offering boons and swag for those who make the effort to attend.
|
To add to what Don said, I believe that conventions also bring in more new players, on average, than store events do. Especially if the gaming area is somewhere visible. People will drop by, see people playing, and ask about it, maybe try it if they have the time free.
I expect that the numbers would show that more new player numbers, on average, are given out at, say, a three day convention than at three days of a normal PFS game day.
It's how I got sucked in, I mean started in PFS.
Don't get me wrong, I strongly support having local game days too (in fact I coordinate multiple game days a month!), and I see new players come in from time to time there as well. Also local venues are likely to be where you recruit new judges on a regular basis.
Also, don't let my belief that conventions draw in the most new players mean that I don't support some kind of reqrd system by GM star. I would like to see some kind of system to reward GMs when they reach star milestones. While right now it's being done at the local level, not every locality will have someone that steps up to recognize when people make major milestones. Heck, not every locality has someone to do so!
|
|
All right, John.
Reduce the thresh-hold to three, or write the website code to drop maps in whenever the GM gets at least five games reported, so that a GM still gets rewarded if it takes her three months to get that.
The point is to reward continual GMing, rather than passing big mile-markers.
Actually, this reminds me of another issue with the "X a month" theory--reporting isn't automatic and some event organizers are terrible about it. Like months behind. It's annoying enough if you're waiting for another star, but if it affects your continued eligibility for something, it's going to start to be a problem.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm... feel free to take my ideas with a grain of salt as I'm just shy of that elusive first star, but I have GM'd hundreds of sessions of non-PFS Paizo products for a decade for whatever that claim is worth.
Ultimately (to me), GMing isn't about personal reward - it's about doing something for the players. An unselfish way of thinking leads to the best GMs - one's who aren't competing with players, but are focused on ensuring the players have the best time possible.
Giving out "power rewards" (i.e. fancy exclusive race boons, other boons) runs somewhat counter to the personality of my favorite GMs. For me, it at least stirs the "oh yeah I want wealth" feelings - and I'd tend to focus on myself, my own characters, and that's less time spent on thinking about other people and their experience.
I love maps, and while I'd love to have free PDF maps for GMing, I'm not sure Paizo wants to give up that revenue source (and we shouldn't blame them), since GMs are undoubtedly the predominant source of map (printed and PDF) revenue.
How about giving GMs with stars a reward that actually reinforces and encourages their selflessness?
This is - a boon that GMs can't use on themselves, but can give out to others. This continues to foster the "GM giving to players" relationship, and honestly, there's nothing more rewarding that doing something for someone else
You could say per each star earned, a GM gets a monthly allotment of points that they can hand out the next month that they GM. For example, if I were a 1 star GM and I GM'd something in May, then in June I could give out via boon sheets to my players up to 5 prestige points of rewards. Perhaps a 5-star GM could give out 25 prestige worth of value on this chronicle. Ultimately, this gives a 5-star GM the ability to raise/restore one PC per month with some room. The lower star folks would just have things like remove blindness, or a temple affiliation they could hand out in a month. We'd of course do this as a result of some especially solid roleplaying by a PC in a scenario and could decide "hey, you earned a free temple membership".
Technically, this is rewarding a high-star GM with more power. But it's the kind of power the players want that GM to gain, and everyone is aligned with the acquisition of it, because it's the kind of power that can only be used for acts of selflessness. It also creates a stronger relationship out of game between that GM and the player(s) they use the reward on, which should foster that player returning to play with that GM who selflessly used their "monthly power" on them.
I'm not sure it's required, but you could further limit these "GM rewards, that are really just rewards they in turn give to player rewards".
A GM could possibly only give out the reward once per character. This could prevent a GM from showering the same PC (that is not theirs) with rewards month after month.
The rewards could be limited only to use when that PC plays with that same GM in the future. For example, a 2-star GM hands out his monthly reward as a "caravan" vanity, but it only works with that same GM who awarded it. If it was a consumable, it could be handled the same way. A GM uses his allotment of 2pp and gives a player the fancy darkwood longbow used by a major NPC in the scenario, but it's on loan and only available when that same PC-GM interact again.
I believe all that's needed for implementation is a couple chronicle sheets.
|
|
I think store venues increase visiblity much more than cons. The people that go to cons are dedicated and look for these events. EVERYTIME I play in a store I have people ask me questions about the game. I get more new people to play pathfinder in the store then at the cons I have been to. The cons I have been to draw people from all over to play yes, but they are established peopel that like me feene for the game. They really want to play the game and will put themselves through a lot for the opportunity.
In all honesty I feel Going to store games is cheaper or as much as cons. The reason being is if I DM I can get in the cons for free. When I have to DM a store game I need to buy the game and print it out. Also this is on me, but I buy things for my GMs and try and make the game easier for them
D&D is old and many people have forgotten about it as their D&D friends moved away or whatnot. Ton of people ask "You guys still play D&D?" and they are excited to get back into it. Seeing it at a place as they go past brings them back into the game. Plus for busy people PFS is great since you can pick it up and go as you please.
Then lets assume that cons draw more people. How much more? You could easily adjust the amoutn of boones provided to a con compared to local stores. Plus you could reserve the top boone for cons and provide something to the people that pay for and run the store games. It is a cheap thank you for the people paying from their own pocket that allows other people to play. Heck you could even have VCs and VLs hand out the free tien language boon to people that run games all the time as a thank you.
If this incentive can be used to increase people coming and increase sales then it should be used.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Sorry, Katie (and Don), but I'm with Finlanderboy. As a very active PFS coordinator for both my store and for the two largest local cons, I can assure you that far more regular players are "born" via my in-store game days than are created by the conventions. Like, blows the convention numbers out of the water, more.
And that's just using the numbers I am intimately familiar with from my store and those conventions. There are 8 other (very) active stores along the Front Range of Colorado.
Developer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pardons for being a bit out of touch lately, but as I recall Robert mentioning, we do try to read as much as we can of these threads, time permitting. I know from the big board of pre-Gen Con tasks that stands next to my workspace that the degree to which I will be able to participate in this kind of discussion might be limited in the near future, but I can at least provide a bit of feedback.
My first point is that the "reach" of conventions and game days is considerable but in my anecdotal experience tends to lure slightly different crowds. At least in Georgia we have several keystone participants who we first introduced to Pathfinder Society Organized Play at a convention, and we have certainly passed out a healthy number of player numbers in that setting. Conventions are great for attracting the people who are already have a peripheral interest in fantasy/sci-fi/RPGs and inviting them to try something new. Game days are also excellent places to recruit because of what is often a more...relaxed atmosphere; there's rarely big pressure to finish a slot by a certain time, and the cost to participate is little or nothing. To reference my experience in Georgia again, we met and recruited lots of wonderful folks at game days. I don't think I could pick my favorite venue and the people who came with it if I tried.
I had the pleasure of seeing Drogon's game store experience in person a week ago, and I had a blast. The man behind the draconic avatar is a scholar and a gentleman, and Colorado is a stronger place for Pathfinder Society as a result.
As far as GM rewards go for varying star counts and related achievements, I can say that Mike and I have bandied about a few ideas over the past few months, and there are some promising prospects in the works. Reading through the roughly 250 posts here gives us some other ideas to work with. Actually getting those into a format that will be ready for widespread distribution will require some time, and there are some other priorities to handle before that happens.
But it's on my radar.
|
|
I never said that cons "breed" more players overall, just more per time invested. When you have a couple cons a year that are only three days long vs a game store that has three game days a month, sure the game store is going to bring in more new players overall. Just not all at once like at a con. But the con environment is often a good place to get seen, even if people don't play they might check it out at their local store afterwards. More importantly, it is likely to be a different group of people than you see at your normal game store (sure there's some overlap), which means more exposure to different people. Your game store is still going to give you the best chance to recruit new judges.
While I agree with you wakedown that the best judges are usually the ones that do it for no reward, sometimes those judges aren't enough to run an entire convention or even game day. I hate having to turn away players because there aren't enough judges.
Not to mention those that do it for no reward still do like to know their work is appreciated. Some way of showing that appreciation would be awesome, though is not required by any means. It would be another tool in my toolbox for recruiting more judges to lighten the load on those that already do so much. Not to mention there's been a lot of growth in PFS lately and more judges are needed to sustain and possibly even improve that growth.