Kthulhu |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I realize that this is an unpopular view here, but I think that if you truly and completely fixed all the problems with 3.x/PFRPG, the end result would bear so little relation to what we have now that many people would end up hating it on principle alone.
And as long as backwards compatibility remains a goal, you aren't going to make too much progress in ironing out all the wrinkles.
Alzrius |
In fairness, there are some obvious fixes that could occur that would go a long way to improving the game.
Counterpoint, there's nothing even close to a consensus regarding what these "obvious fixes" are, nor is there any way to measure how much they'd improve the game.
Trying to fix everything will never happen.
Yes, but again this is because there's no real way to even measure if something is in need of fixing, let alone any real agreement on how to fix it.
Personally, I think there should be more discussion about the difference between problems inherent with the system (e.g. the game mechanics) versus problems arising from how people use the system.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
I'd like to see Sorcerers get healing (and cleric) spells. It would 'make up' for their delayed casting, and make them unique again.
Ezren: "I am sorry m'lady. I have studied every arcane theory. From Azlanti texts, to the lost writings of Hao Jin. I am afraid arcane magic is no help to your husband."
Seoni: *casts heal*
Ezren: "How the hell did you do that?
:-)
Kthulhu |
I'd like to see Sorcerers get healing (and cleric) spells. It would 'make up' for their delayed casting, and make them unique again.
Ezren: "I am sorry m'lady. I have studied every arcane theory. From Azlanti texts, to the lost writings of Hao Jin. I am afraid arcane magic is no help to your husband."
Seoni: *casts heal*
Ezren: "How the hell did you do that?
:-)
Of course, also using arcane magic, a bard, an alchemist, or a witch could also heal him.
FrinkiacVII |
To give a somewhat modern take on trying to answer the OP question, consider this:
Engineers are really smart. Medical doctors are really smart. One devotes his or her time to the study of bridges, engines, electronics, etc and the other to medicine. It's not that one would have been incapable of learning the other's trade, it's that he or she simply didn't want to.
A wizard is a wizard, and doesn't learn healing because he or she doesn't want to. If they did, they'd have become something else. Go to arcane school, go to religious instruction, it's a career choice. That's how I see it anyway.
The Bard, admittedly, is a jack-of-all-trades (and master of none) type of class, and in my opinion was intended as such. Frankly, if I had my "druthers" I'd rewrite the class to make it less melee (which is to say, no melee) and less healing (again, no healing) and more straight arcane, but with a musical slant. Trying to make any sense of the Bard class in or out of the DnD context is frustrating and pretty much pointless. How can a guy heal through music? Why it's MAGIC! But wait, the Wizard is the MASTER of magic and HE can't heal using magic, singing or no singing. And the Bard class isn't really a religios calling, at least not in the flavor text I've read. So what gives? The class was basically written to be a class that could do a smattering of everything, (and by everything I mean melee, healing, and magic) but not any one thing really well.
Weirdo |
Well, if the wizard is an engineer and the cleric is a doctor, the bard is the guy with a Master of Liberal Arts degree. Some people do choose versatility or a broad education over specialization, either in a game or IRL.
ciretose |
I realize that this is an unpopular view here, but I think that if you truly and completely fixed all the problems with 3.x/PFRPG, the end result would bear so little relation to what we have now that many people would end up hating it on principle alone.
And as long as backwards compatibility remains a goal, you aren't going to make too much progress in ironing out all the wrinkles.
You will never, ever, "fix" all of the problems. Some solutions will create new problems.
But if the system doesn't evolve, it will stagnate. There was plenty of material published for 1e that is still out there. Yet, not many people still play it outside of nostaligia.
Similarly, there is no reason we can't all play 3.5. They had more crunch out than we currently have for Pathfinder. But it most people don't.
Taking a step forward isn't going to make all the current content disappear anymore than people will stop running CoCT or Legacy of Fire now that they have to convert it.
My rule of thumb would be that if they update, I should be able to run CoTC, the original RoTRL, etc...just as easily with conversion as I would any of the 1.0 Pathfinder stuff.
Then you can pick your system and Paizo still makes money selling you current and nostaligia AP's.
3.5 Loyalist |
In 3.5 they can!
I remember I almost pulled off some massive healing with a 3.5 war mage. It was all about energy substitution, altering the elements of a spell. I'd change fire to sonic a lot (oh you don't have sonic resistance monster, that is too bad), and later took sonic to positive, since positive is also an element by the rules and contrasts to negative. Alas I realised the small-print on one of the sources for this substitution, but not all, said you can't actually take positive if not a cleric/druid etc.
Then along came magicka, and gave wizards the positive healing element (which hurts undead). Good game.
3.5 Loyalist |
I realize that this is an unpopular view here, but I think that if you truly and completely fixed all the problems with 3.x/PFRPG, the end result would bear so little relation to what we have now that many people would end up hating it on principle alone.
And as long as backwards compatibility remains a goal, you aren't going to make too much progress in ironing out all the wrinkles.
No matter the reforms or modernisation, the masses always revolt.
MaestroVolpe |
Providing an answer that steers away from mechanical game-balance answers and focuses purely on the flavor of the character (mmm… bard…)
I would say that it's because Wizards and Sorcerers and Arcane magic in general is recognized to be the universe-bending, divining, exploding side of the magical coin.
Where as Clerics and Druids focused primarily on the inherently benevolent nature of divine magic to provide protection and healing (with some other cool abilities).
But Bards are born out of a universal drive for adaptation. He or she is a jack of all trades, yet a master of none. In a typical party the Bard watches the fighter doing his drills and takes mental notes. He keeps an eye on the rogue to try and master that flick of the wrist. He peers over a wizard's shoulder while they study their spell book and he even listens to the quiet prayers of the devout cleric, perhaps to see if there's a good song in there, somewhere.
It just makes sense that a character obsessed with always having SOMETHING to provide in any situation, however small, would manage to find a way to cast a cure spell.
amethal |
But if the system doesn't evolve, it will stagnate. There was plenty of material published for 1e that is still out there. Yet, not many people still play it outside of nostaligia.
Similarly, there is no reason we can't all play 3.5. But most people don't.
That's great, I've often wanted a reliable source of who plays what, and why. Where are you getting your data from?
Haladir |
From a rules perspective, it's about game balance and character class roles. Bards and clerics are designed to be primarily support characters, hence their spells tend toward buffs, debuffs, and healing. Wizards and sorcerers are more general-purpose spellcasters, but they are designed specifically not to have much of any healing capabilities so as not to trample on the role of the support classes.
From an in-world perspective, it's about the source of magical power.
Divine casters aren't so much casting spells as performing miracles at the behest of their gods. They are the conduit of divine magic. And part of the divine magic is the ability to miraculously heal wounds, restore sight, remove curses, and resurrect the dead. These are the purview of divine miracles, not arcane magic.
Arcane casters have different sources of power, but these sources vary by character class. Indeed, the difference between the arcane casting classes are these sources and how the caster taps into them. However, the natural forces of life and healing are mostly beyond the power of arcane magic. The closest arcane magic comes is necromancy-- the unnatural control of the powers of unlife.
Wizards, through careful and prolonged study, have learned the mystical underpinnings of reality, and can use this knowlege to invoke magical effects simply by their words, gestures, and use of appropriate magical talismans (i.e. spell components). They use their finely-honed knowledge and practiced skill at working magic to bring the desired effects into being.
Sorcerers are born with magical super-powers. It's a gift that they have learned to use through instinct and force of their own personality. Because they are innate super-powers, sorcerers can't really learn new spells through study nor can they teach their inborn powers to others. When a sorcerer acquires a new spell, they are learning to use an inborn power that they had in inkling of, but hadn't yet figured out how to tap.
Bards have a muse-- a mystical connection to the power of sound and music. The muse can tap into both arcane and divine sources-- for the power of music transcends such boundaries.
Witches gain their power from their mystical patron. Again, while primarily arcane, their patrons have (and can grant) some amount of divine power, which is why witches have limited healing abilities.
That's how I've explained the differences in the spell lists in-game to new players.
But, in your home game, if you want to grant wizards the ability to cast cure critical wounds, go right ahead. It's your game!
Shain Edge |
It does seem a little weird from an in character perspective. "I can reform your body into whatever I wish, but I can't fix a few scratches?"
Yes, that is my big pet-peeve on wizards unable to cast healing spells. They have all sorts of spell effects that 'should' by every reasonable means include healing, but it is simple fiat choice of the designers that they are not able to heal.
Personally, I don't think it is a game breaker if wizards/sorcerers have access to healing spells. Clerics still are the heal masters, considering you include their AoE heal bursts.
Shain Edge |
So, you'd be OK with fighters completely outperforming all other classes in (for example) damage, under all circumstances, because after all, "it's fighting"?
Wizard does not equal god. Only gods get to be good at everything.
I play fighters very rarely.. almost never.. despite that they are so far ahead of the other classes damage wise. I'm a support player or a sneak. I don't care about out performing.
Matter of fact, Last few times I've played (rare time of being a player). I convinced the DM to allow me to play a 'Mage', which is a spell point, free form, caster. For the purposes of 'power' they are outperformed by Wizards. However, they are very flexible, including healing.
Basically, Fighters are exceptional at DPS and tanking. Wizards can be good at DPS, Support, miscellaneous, and in the case I add healing, healing. But they can't be good att all of them at the same time. They have to choose how you are going to expend their finite power.
Larkos |
There's another thread about this if anyone is interested
The reasoning of spell source is the best one I have. Healing the body and spirit, channeling the energy of life and death directly, and reuniting soul and flesh is a power that only the gods can do and they allow this power only to their chosen followers. Witches may not directly follow the gods but the have a mystical patron which seems to be divine in nature.
Bards are the real hang-up on both threads. I usually just explain it away in my head with the power of rock/comedy/inspiration. If you want something serious though, bards can heal because the point of their class is to do a bit of everything.
A bard should travel the land learning things from everyone. He learned to rock from his mentor. He learned to wield a longsword and wear light armor without penalty from a village of barbarians after he used his charm to convince a dragon to leave the village alone. He picked up some magic from ancient book of magical sheet music he found in an ancient tomb. He learned healing from a very understanding village priest after that one-nighter with that naughty Aasimar. Either that or his wide knowldege of legends, books, songs, speeches, and stories allowed him to have unique access to certain skills just like his bardic knowledge.