I think Rogues should get ALL the experience for any trap they disarm!
Here is why:
- PCs should receive awards for Challenges that they participate in.
- When a rogue attempts to disable a trap, the only participants are the person that spotted the trap, the person disarming the trap, and the people affected by the trap.
By this logic, if a party takes the "bomb squad" tactic of "Rogue found a trap... everyone wait back here while he disarms it!" Then the rogue should get the xp.
If you have an encounter, and only two of the party participate (meaning the other two are in a separate room doing nothing or sleeping safely) then those two should recieve all the rewards of that encounter.
So, it is my contention that whoever spots, disarms, or is affected by the trap gets exp for it.
This would also ballance out rogues a little more, by giving them a chance to level up about 10-20% more quickly than the rest of the party.
Only in adventures that actually have traps. Traps can be rare (in which case it sucks even more to be a rogue).
That is fine, if your group is OK with getting separate XP rewards. What if the party battles creatures immune to sneak attack? Does the rogue get less XP? Does the wizard get more XP for incapacitating all of the enemies in a fight?
Only if he does not participate at all, like the people who are standing around doing nothing while the rogue risks his life and ability scores disarming a trap.
That is fine, if your group is OK with getting separate XP rewards. What if the party battles creatures immune to sneak attack? Does the rogue get less XP? Does the wizard get more XP for incapacitating all of the enemies in a fight?
LoL. If the barbarian is mind controlled... does he get less?
No. They participated. They at least were a part of the danger, they could have been a target, taken some hits for the team... clogged up the battlefield at least a little, provided flanking bonuses... still hit for some damage.
But with the traps, the barbarian doesn't participate in the danger.... and when he does (like being hit by a trap) I think he would then get a share of the xp.
Only if he does not participate at all, like the people who are standing around doing nothing while the rogue risks his life and ability scores disarming a trap.
Yes. This is what happens alot of the time. I think that maybe the rogue was depowered a little because he is thought to be getting more xp than the rest of the party.
I think Rogues should get ALL the experience for any trap they disarm!
Here is why:- PCs should receive awards for Challenges that they participate in.
- When a rogue attempts to disable a trap, the only participants are the person that spotted the trap, the person disarming the trap, and the people affected by the trap.By this logic, if a party takes the "bomb squad" tactic of "Rogue found a trap... everyone wait back here while he disarms it!" Then the rogue should get the xp.
If you have an encounter, and only two of the party participate (meaning the other two are in a separate room doing nothing or sleeping safely) then those two should recieve all the rewards of that encounter.
So, it is my contention that whoever spots, disarms, or is affected by the trap gets exp for it.
No, if you can contribute meaningfully in some way then you should. If you cannot contribute meaningfully then it is best for you to stay out of the way. Why does everyone who isn't a rogue not spot the trap and why don't they try to disable it? Because the trap spotter ability is a rogue talent, and no one else gets an autocheck to spot the trap. Part 2, disable device is a trained skill only. If there is a rogue with the skill there is no (mechanical) reason for someone else to take it. They wont be as good at is as the rogue. Part 3, if they do not spot the trap, and cannot disable the trap, then why would it be a good idea for them to stand near the trap? So that if it accidentally goes off the rogue and the barbarian both take damage or some other condition? That's a great idea, lets put more burden on the healer by putting everyone in danger! Splendid. It's not like having the person least likely to be harmed by traps and the most skilled at disabling them do so while everyone else remains in relative safely is a sound strategy or anything. I guess the wizard shouldn't stand behind the fighter for protection during combat either. Lastly, would you also make the argument that XP should be split conditionally by how useful you are in combat? So the wizard who disables everybody gets half the XP, and the fighter and barbarian each get 20% since they killed everybody else, and the rogue gets 10% because he only made 3 sneak attacks during combat while trying to set up flanking, etc?
So if you have a social encounter, and the bard is the one that does the talking, only the bard gets the xp for that? If the barbarian accidently walks through and survives the trap only he gets xp for it?
Each party member has different strengths, honestly traps are one of the elements of this game I like the least (at least as they are presented in the core rules) because of how exclusionary they are. Its not like people can actually help the rogue work on the trap, so other then rewarding foolish behavior (people who cant help being in the 'blast zone') what does this accomplish? Do you think rogues are supposed to be higher level then everyone else in trap heavy dungeons? That seems pretty nonsensical to me.
@Claxon
Obviously what you are describing is stupid. The fact is that everyone is involved in the combat, so then you split the xp evenly. Also, combat is not all about dealing damage. A wizard casting wall of force often contributes more than a fighter who does 40% of the damage. Casting a heal and keeping the barbarian up is quite valuable too.
In the same way, if another player is "involved" in disabling the trap... then split the experience evenly. Bard sings a song and rogue disables trap at +4 to his roll... then split the experience!
You can spot traps without the trap spotting ability. You simply say to the DM "I search for traps." Trap Spotter is for noobs and people who forget.
@Kolokotroni
-If there is some sort of XP reward for convincing someone of something specific in a social encounter... and the bard does it ALONE. Then YES!
What "experience" has your group gained by the BARD solving a problem on his own?
-Barbarian survives a trap on his own and it doesn't reset? Yes, Barbarian gets the XP (or EXPERIENCE). He has learned something.... "trap hurt"!
-YES People CAN help the rogue disarm traps. Through skill buffs, assisting with disable device, spotting the trap, dimension dooring the party past the trap, using bard song for buffs, running through the trap and setting it off, casting a summon monster 1 and setting it off ETC.
@Both of you
Anyone can spot nonmagical traps and disarm them.
Don't go down that road Matthias DM, maddness lies in that road.
And then you get
Rogue: i'm going to disable that trap.
Barbarian: no freaking way, that way i don't get any xp. I'm going to rush right along and trigger it so that I take the damage and the xp
Summoner: stop freating guys, i've already triggered it summoning a bunch of wolves, so i get the xp
And then you get
Rogue: i'm going to disable that trap.
Barbarian: no freaking way, that way i don't get any xp. I'm going to rush right along and trigger it so that I take the damage and the xp
Summoner: stop freating guys, i've already triggered it summoning a bunch of wolves, so i get the xp
Exactly, you not just rewarding potentially foolish behavior(the barbarian rushing the trap when the rogue could disable it), you are creating a competative environment instead of a cooperative one, first one to remove the trap wins the xp, everyone else is out of luck.
Event Based Leveling removes ALL of the extra role play experience that paizo puts in their products. It also removes the extra gain from solving the little things or dealing with problems in clever ways.
I used it as well, but I don't like it. It's not reflecting of the players' acheivements.
The Game becomes "you are supposed to level up here" and guess what, that breaks the 4th wall and the enchantment created by roleplaying.
@Dekalinder
Then keep a tab of their experience yourself. on a single sheet of paper and just tell them when they gain a level after their next rest.
Simple. Done. Players are free to roleplay.
That is fine, if your group is OK with getting separate XP rewards. What if the party battles creatures immune to sneak attack? Does the rogue get less XP? Does the wizard get more XP for incapacitating all of the enemies in a fight?LoL. If the barbarian is mind controlled... does he get less?
No. They participated. They at least were a part of the danger, they could have been a target, taken some hits for the team... clogged up the battlefield at least a little, provided flanking bonuses... still hit for some damage.
But with the traps, the barbarian doesn't participate in the danger.... and when he does (like being hit by a trap) I think he would then get a share of the xp.
BRB jumping into traps for exp then asking for healing.
Event Based Leveling removes ALL of the extra role play experience that paizo puts in their products. It also removes the extra gain from solving the little things or dealing with problems in clever ways.
I used it as well, but I don't like it. It's not reflecting of the players' acheivements.
The Game becomes "you are supposed to level up here" and guess what, that breaks the 4th wall and the enchantment created by roleplaying.
@Dekalinder
Then keep a tab of their experience yourself. on a single sheet of paper and just tell them when they gain a level after their next rest.
Simple. Done. Players are free to roleplay.
Does it though? More than "We just beat the BBEG but we're just short of leveling. We'll hit it off of some random encounter later." or what about a scenario such as: "I expected you guys to be far more clever than you have been, this fight is designed for you being a level higher than you are."
I like event based leveling, it makes more sense to me. I'd rather players be rewarded with small boons, if their cleverness working isn't a reward itself.
Not letting the players know what is happening is IMHO the first in the list of BIGGEST FAIL A DM CAN EVER DO.
Trasparency is the key to avoid 90% of the s~~~ that can happen on a game table.
The second biggest one on the list is awarding differents amount of xp to the players. That always is a setup for failure since players feel "punished" for playing their way.
I mean, if you want to roleplay a silent assassin of the lotus (not the pathfinder archetypes but the "real" ones of the old cinese empire) or maybe a monk with the vow of silence and your DM tell you "hey dude you didn't talk at all in the last 3 session, you'll get 50% less exp" it really feel like the DM is telling you to f%#! off.
I use XP because is a measurment of progression, and makes the players feel good. It makes them feel they achieved something even when they spend 3 session doing tavern brawls or splitting the booty.
And on top of that, when I award xp i always put out a short comment like
"i gave you extra exp for how you hadled this one situation" or
"i gave you a little bit less because you missed some usefull hints there and there" or also
"hey mister rogue, you did awesomely disarming that trap and convincing that guy to do that, you just won 7K exp for your party". Do this and you start see how no one will ever again start complaining on having a rogue in the group even if he pulls a little short during combats.
Keeping the players a little in the dark often creates mystery and the excitement of the unknown. That is actually a win for a good DM.
As much as you can, you should be avoiding breaking a players enchantment. Sometimes players get bogged down with such things as experience and it's best for you to take that away from them.
You can see this in your previous example where you imagined players all fighting for the experience! That's dumb. That has nothing to do with character, or story, or anything. You need to break your players from this way of thinking.
Lol, you think that Mr. Silent deserves bonus experience when communication is necessary to achieve it? If he does as much to help as a dead character... then he deserves as much experience as a dead character gets.
Just because the Indians win vs the Reds, doesn't mean that the Reds are being punished. Ever pass go in Monopoly? Were the other players being punished because they didn't? A players win... is just that... their win.
Really, the experience amount we are talking about is probably enough to change 1 level over the course of the game. They will just end up levelling a few encounters ahead of you. You will still end up where you should, level wise. There is tons of experience you never even see because you teleport past it or because you take a different path or because you don't roll random encounters.
You are free to ignore my advice.... or try it.
False idea 1: Transparency mean i tell everything to PC
Transparency means telling the reasoning behind things they know (like xp they are getting), not the actual numbers or facts.
False idea 2: rewarding a player for something and NOT REWARDING the others when they do something comparable is not favoritism.
Because if you give exp to the rogue when they disable something, you gotta give exp to the warrior when he kills something. Because as the rogue specialize in traps, the warrior specialize in killing stuffs. So you should reward him too when he does his things
False idea 3: An hyperbole is a fact
Because if one use an hyperbole to show the fallacy of a reasoning, you have to take it litterally. Beside, the fact that the original problem is not as marked as the hyperbole itself, it doesn't mean is less wrong.
False idea 4: if i tell you that my idea work because i tryed it, i'm telling you "you must"
You are still totallyn free to do whatever you wish. Still, i'm telling you this work.
False idea 5: writing all bolded make you more right.
Because it totally doesn't.
I envision the entire party putting one rank in disable device and crowding around every trap to "aid in disabling it". Or the party barbarian just running up to every door to set off the trap and grab the XP from it. :P
EDIT: And the 7 charisma barbarian insisting he speak to every npc, regardless of consequences, for that sweet, sweet XP.
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The worst thing that can happen in game is to set up a competition between players. Someone is going to get the shaft and they wont be happy about it. What you are suggesting Matthias will end up with everyone competeting for every snippit of XP to try and remain equal. IMO parties function best when everyone is the same level. A large level disparity between characters means one character is either having too easy or too hard of a time and that just ruins it for me.
Besides, in my book, when a character can't disable a trap then there is no point in you being near the trap. The most useful thing you can do for the trap encounter is stay out of the way. I'd rather see you penalize a dumb character for running in to be damaged by the trap because now they need healing than give the rogue all the experience since hes the only one with the toolset for the job.
I promise you, if you implemented something like this with the people I play with you simply see everyone trying to keep everyone else away from anythign that yields experience so they can get it all themselves.
Black Blood Troll is right anyways, event based experience seems a much better way to go in general, excepting adventure paths that expect certain levels for certain encounter, which can be alieviated so long as you know far enough in advance when to expect that encounter to occur and can coerce your PCs into some event worth causing a level up.
@Dekalinder
Sorry. I disagree. Rewarding xp based off merit isn't favoritism.
Wait, I guess I'm not sorry.
Also, I don't understand the rest of the gibberish you put down. I'm not going to get into some petty discussion about who has DMed longer or discussions about your use of hyperbole or other obvious issues.
I'm only saying whoever takes part in the encounter should gain experience for that encounter.
You are saying "gimme gimme gimme xp, don't take it away from me I need to level"<--I guess that's how I use hyperbole!
@Claxon
Yes, but that removes storyline experience rewards.... you know, the extra you get for completing the story a certain way or discovering hidden truths? That is extra experience that might place the PCs at a different level at different times.
It also assumes that everything before that point was completed (or doesn't care if it wasn't). Because of that, it makes players' actions seem unimportant.
That seems so fail to me.
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The AP’s I have been running give significant rewards for talking your way round an encounter; I think the Bard and the Rogue with your system will be getting the lion’s share of the rewards and would be unfair to the rest of the party.
When you get the same xp for talking your way round an encounter as beating into submission with clubs then is the rogue is also your party face then the rogue will be leagues ahead of the party.
I don’t find rogue particularly weak in respect to the rest of the party and don’t believe they need the boost. But I do not want to open that discussion here or anywhere else.
While I agree that anyone who takes part in an encounter should get the XP, everyone takes part in the encounter regardless of who does the actual work. The cleric is there just in case the rogue fails and needs healing, the fighter is there keeping watch ready to unleash violence on any sneaking up and the wizard is ready with a spell or two just in case it’s needed. Even moral support is assisting regardless of the actual mechanics of gameplay.
So what I’m saying is you are both right but for different reasons; you should gain experience for what you take part in but everyone takes part in everything regardless. … Mostly
Regards
Sic