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Hey all! Just so you know, I'm on a much needed vacation this week (relaxing in tropical Myhaus in exotic Washington). So I haven't dropped off the face of the earth, I'm just distracted by a stack of neglected video games, comics, miniatures, novels, a few back burner projects, and a half-formed website. I'll touch back here shortly, but in the meantime I didn't want anyone to think I didn't love them anymore.
Make sure I have plenty interesting to come back to!
Be back soon and thanks for your patience!
~W
Website?
Will I be able to find you on the World Wide Wesley?
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They let Paizo staff out unsupervised?
O.o
Hello!
I'm relatively new to the hobby, having started with Pathfinder in 2010, so my question may seem strange to you vets, but I'm hoping you can share your knowledge on the subject.
What is it that truly separates demons and devils? Specifically what are their separate end games?
I have been reading "The Book Of The Damned" series (in fact, I just got "Princes Of Darkness" last week and I'm enjoying, well, the Hell out of it), but some of the methods and motives of the two kinds of fiends seems really similar.
In your write up of Asmodeus you mention that almost every other god comes seeking his advice. Does that include Lamashtu?
(Incidentally, I loved this write-up. It instantly made Asmodeus my favorite evil deity.)
Thank you. :)
Hello!
I'm relatively new to the hobby, having started with Pathfinder in 2010, so my question may seem strange to you vets, but I'm hoping you can share your knowledge on the subject.
What is it that truly separates demons and devils? Specifically what are their separate end games?
I have been reading "The Book Of The Damned" series (in fact, I just got "Princes Of Darkness" last week and I'm enjoying, well, the Hell out of it), but some of the methods and motives of the two kinds of fiends seems really similar.
In your write up of Asmodeus you mention that almost every other god comes seeking his advice. Does that include Lamashtu?
(Incidentally, I loved this write-up. It instantly made Asmodeus my favorite evil deity.)Thank you. :)
I can get into it a little deeper after work, but its my understanding that devils corrupt souls so that they can enslave them in Hell. Demons want to sow discord on earth for their own base pleasures, and pervert souls so that the Abyss will rot them into demons.
Hey everyone! I'm back from vacation, so I'll be hoping back into this at least as regularly as before (and maybe more so)!
Gormenghast. I have no opinion of the BBC series, but I don't see how one could possibly do the books justice without using hand-drawn animation.
They read like a combination of Edgar Allen Poe's mood and Charles Dickens' grotesque characters and sense of humor, but far more surreal.
I agree that your work on Ustalav makes me think that you would appreciate them.
High praise! It's on the list!
What are the chances of us getting a "The Fantasmal Wesley Schneider's Anthology of Horror" in hardcover sometime in the future? :3
Ha! Give me another decade. We'll see. ;)
Speaking of which, have you seen the new NBC show Hannibal yet? It's amazingly good, and a very interesting take on his character -- especially in the most recent couple of episodes. It's also all on Hulu, in case the Gen Con Crunch has made you miss it.
I've seen the first two so far and am loving it. Mads Mikkelsen is blowing me away. I would have thought it heresy a month ago, but he might be an even better Lecter than Hopkins.
I've heard mixed things about later episodes, but I'm still eager to see them! I'll let you know what I think once I've taken the whole season in.
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Oh, I got one!
Can you give us a Top 10 list of Wes's favorite Pathfinder PC-Appropriate races?
Edit: All races up to and including the Inner Sea Bestiary are fair game.
Ha! Okay, hum. In no particular order:
Dhampir (Obviously.)
Changeling (I really want to play one of these. I love hags, thought it was a fun idea when I ordered them for Carrion Crown, and really enjoy that folks seem to have latched onto them.)
Human (Easily the most identifiable race. I like low-ish magic games too, so human-dominated groups can be really fun)
Elf (Magical, pretty, AND self-superior!? Sold. Who doesn't like their fantasy glamorous?)
Tiefling (A half-div/deamon/kyton/demodand?! Cool.)
Aasimar (Especially non-good ones.)
Undine (Largely because I used to play a water genasi, and fire is played out.)
Vishkanya (Because of cool legends and Ninja Scroll.)
Syrinx (One of my guys from Inner Sea Bestiary. I love the whole "Oh, I guess they're--Whoa! They're lawful evil!?)
Skinwalker (Coming up in Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon. I'm really eager to see how these guys turn out!)
What you're not seeing on there are a lot of comic relief characters. I tend not to go for Small or quirky races. Roleplaying is serious business after all. :P
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Skinwalker (Coming up in Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon. I'm really eager to see how these guys turn out!)
You evil teasing bastard!! *shakes fist*
Still love you all the same :3
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Dhampir (Obviously.)
Vishkanya (Because of cool legends and Ninja Scroll.)
I'm playing both of these and have been really enjoying them! I will always be wanting more material on them. Speaking of which: Blood of the Night never went into this but I was curious what might happen if a Dhampir was turned into a Vampire or Vampire spawn. Is there a unique flavor or mechanical aspect to this happeningin your mind?
Ok, one of my favorite Paizo people together with James so of course I have some questions!
1: What is your favorite monster from Greek Mythology?
2: What is your favorite monster from Irish/Scottish/English folklore?
3: What is your favorite monster from Inuit mythology?
4: What is your favorite monster from Slavic Folklore/Mythology?
5: What is your favorite cryptid?
6: What is your favorite African Monster (egypt also counts, everything african)
7: What is your favorite monster from Norse mythology?
8: What is your favorite deity/monster from Aztec mythology?
9: What is your favorite monster from Asian/Japanese mythology?
10: What is your favorite movie monster?
Skinwalker (Coming up in Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon. I'm really eager to see how these guys turn out!)
Skinwalker as playable race??!!?? That is so awesome!
Does the Skinwalker have things in common with the D&D Shifter or is it really very different from it? I hope its different!
Oh, I got one!
Can you give us a Top 10 list of Wes's favorite Pathfinder PC-Appropriate races?
Edit: All races up to and including the Inner Sea Bestiary are fair game.
Ha! Okay, hum. In no particular order:
Vishkanya (Because of cool legends and Ninja Scroll.)
Whoa, those things are based on mythology? I actually loathed that race because to me, its stats seemed like a direct herald back to 3.5 when races would be tailor-made for a specific class. (Virtually every aspect of their racial biography is designed to make an optimal ninja.) I had no idea that they were actually from something ....
What you're not seeing on there are a lot of comic relief characters. I tend not to go for Small or quirky races. Roleplaying is serious business after all. :P
I think we now need a Weslesy's List of the Top 10 Quirkiest Races to see what you're referring to! Same rules as above: All races up to and including the Inner Sea Bestiary are fair game.
And technically the Skinwalkers are cheating (they don't fit my book range) but I'll accept them regardless because I'm so looking forward to how they turn out!
Contributor
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Alexander,
Vishkanya - Sanskrit for "poison girl" are from Indian history.
The Western variant is the poisoned cape or cloak which is far less interesting...
I'm rather fond of Dumas's book with poisoned pages that killed Charles IX of France in Queen Margot - he knows it's poisoned, so he wears gloves when he reads it, but then he has to lick his index-finger every time he turns a page...
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Wow! So much stuff to take in, I kind of figured the whole Doloras being this feminine nihilism incarnate character but the repose thing still eludes me in its association. That being said from your write up here she sounds more like an ally of the daemons then kytons (nothing really matters, ascension to nothingness, total obliteration of the soul in order to never be hurt again. Sounds right up the alley of the horsemen. Especially sounds like an interesting ally of Suzeriel)which honestly just makes her more impressive. Okay wait I can kind of see the soul connection but it's more about the destruction of soul and self rather then it's preservation. Dammit now I need to build something around this.
I could see her having allies among the daemons, but I doubt see's too friendly. And yeah, some of her philosophies totally do overlap with concepts the Horsemen encourage. I really like it when different types of characters and different alignments of creatures go about trying to fulfill similar goals. Sure, the neutral evil daemons might pursue oblivion through tricks and lies, wanton destruction and undermining souls, but how would a lawful good character go about it? She wouldn't lie or cheat or make promises she couldn't fulfill, she'd offer it, she'd make you want it, she'd trade you shiny things that you think you want for intangible or fundamental things you never realized were precious, she'd cultivate your romance with oblivion. And in the end, she wouldn't laugh, she wouldn't exalt, she'd just turn away, because you're nothing and she's past caring.
Second holy hell, I'll be the first to raise my hand on the want for more articles on the rest of the lords of the pit. Also would love to see a module, ap, or more books in general covering the whore queens, that write up just makes them to intriguing to not get more love especially considering their semi-antagonistic relationship with the rest of hell and the nature of their position within the hierarchy.
Yeah, lots of folks seem to dig them. Don't know how we'll play with them next, but there will be something down the line I'm sure!
Now more questions. What can you tell us about belial? I have a player who's decided blind calling another powerful demigod because it shares some of it's portfolio with a demon lord and it's cult who he just managed to not get killed by is a good idea and I kind of want more about him so I can better portray what he is all about.
I could--and probably someday will--write a whole article about Belial. If you're not already familiar with his write up in Book of the Damned, that's a great place to start. But beyond that, there's not much more in canon that exists. So, in other words, you've got free reign here and nothing in print is going to contradict whatever you decide to run with (and even if there was something in print, you could still just flat out ignore it).
So don't feel like you have to wait on some shlub on the interwebs to tell you how to run your game.
That said, if you want to expand your idea of what Belial does, I would suggest taking a look at what he surrounds himself with.
The Idolisque: Belial's fortress is a vast harem and beautiful torture theater. Elegant and decadent, damned souls deemed worthy are given the choice to leave behind their labors and join the chosen in this unbelivable palace--where they are ultimately violated, remade, and tormented at the whims of its fiendish inhabitants and other damned souls. But at least they don't have to mine metal with their hands and the place is much prettier.
This is where Belial lives, and it operates in a way that pleases him most. The choice of the Idolisque is the torment you know verses the torment that you don't. Its giving up one burden for another, worse burden disguised as a boon. It's temptation, and regret, and despair. And as bad as the torment of bleeding, brutal labor is, it's not worse than physical torture combined with the knowledge that you brought this on yourself.
Sexy Souls: This says that Belial has more than a wandering eye. He is attracted to pretty things and looks for more to entertain himself with. He knows no gender or sexuality being of infinitely malleable form. He knows no taboo, being beyond morality. He's also ageless, and that means bored, so he's already tried everything once and is always looking for something new. So when you're wondering what might serve him, what might catch his attention, and what he might covet and savor, keep all of that in mind.
Surgeries and Forges: These prove Belial isn't passive. He's not a doped sultan lounging eternally in his seraglio, he's a sculptor, an inventor, a doer. He's a creature of creation and imagination, born from Asmodeus's own craft and give variable forms. He can be whatever is pleasing, and he pursues what is pleasing to him. Material doesn't mater to him, whether it be flesh or steel, he's interested in creation, in art, in the avant garde, the outrageous, the audacious. If the multiverse won't furnish him with beauty and distraction, then he'll make it himself... and all the better if he has rare and wondrous material to work with.
These are just a few ideas taken largely from the text.
What kinds of characters end up consigned to the 8th ring of hell?
Cania is solitary confinement for some of the worst of the damned. Not tyrants and evil leaders, many of them are consigned to Nessus, but the unique and the inventive. Each spire is the prison for a single soul, who for a time was the maestro of some atrocity or nightmare to the masses. If Hannibal Lecter, Darth Vader, Ozymandias, John Doe (from Seven) were consigned to Hell--evil masterminds who weren't also rulers or masterful servants of Asmodeus--this is (arguably) where they might go.
Is their any chance we might see a mythic variant of the contract devil in mythic adventures/bestiary 4, something to really play up that iconic "great tempter" of devilkind?
Mythic Adventures will give you tons of tools to make any monster you want mythic. Bestiary 4 is not going to provide any mythic reskins of existing creatures.
Also what does Dispater think of his son Ragathiel, does he despise him and seek his destruction, or something closer to actually loving him but finding his choices horribly "misguided"?
Dispater does not actively seek his son's destruction. In fact, I'm sure he loves his son after a fashion. He knows Ragathiel is young and needs to make his own mistakes. Heck, even Dispater served Heaven for a time in his misguided youth. Dispater probably thinks his son will go be wild and naive for a few eons, but he'll eventually grow out of it and come around, and when he does, he'll have a place in his father's kingdom.
What are your thoughts on Garundi vampires? I know there was a terkow vampire (adapted from the Nyambe book) in one of the Serpent's Skull volumes, so I was a little disappointed the terkow didn't make it into Blood of Night. Was this a conscious decision or were these poor gents just overlooked? What other types of vampire would have a strong presence in Garund? (I'm guessing nosferatu). Thanks!
Were any of the other characters that appeared in Dungeon other members of staff characters or only yours and Jamses?
Hummm, not that I can think of. Tyralandi was definitely James's from the get go and I totally adopted Abelard--we had a look for him before I gave him a name and personality (which was shockingly easy with Ramon Perez's awesome art). I'm looking on the cover of Dungeon #150 to see if there was anyone else from that group anyone had claimed and it doesn't look like it--though, SHOCK, Abelard is dying on that cover too.
So yeah, just us I think! :)
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I've been browsing through your Erratic Episodes blog recently. What an amazing idea! I love playing different types of games and systems. Life is so hectic and my player's attentions (mine also) tend to drift, making it very difficult to keep a single campaign going for any significant amount of time. (I think over the years, we've started like 4 APs... Finished none). Anyway, I'm rambling.
What advice would you have to offer someone trying to do something similar (playing short 1-3 session games using different systems, settings, stories, etc)?
Ha! Awesome. Thanks for checking it out. For folks who might not know, Erratic Episodes is the website I keep up for the various two-session games I run--because who has time for long running campaigns? I post a lot of recaps, notes, and free downloads on there for folks who might be interested, so check it out if you like... you know... roleplaying.
As for advice on running brief games: Schedule them all at once. The worst issue I've been running into is trying to schedule busy people, including myself, multiple times. If you plan the adventure to go for two sessions, schedule two dates and keep it to two sessions.
If it has to bleed into a third, do not let people leave until you've set a third and final date.
Not playing for months is a game killer, both for players remembering what happened and for you keeping everything straight in your head.
Also, pick and run the cool parts. It's like with a TV series. You know how many times I've watched the Blackwater episode of Game of Thrones? Like 100. The one before it? Probably twice. Same with adventures. If there's only one awesome part you want to run, get that volume of the AP, get that section of the adventure, get that encounter, get that dungeon, give your PCs the back story or enough set up to get running, and run it like it was its own thing. If you prep your players with enough info to make the perfect characters, you can create a situation where you're playing exactly what you want to play with exactly the right characters, without having to wade through sections you're less interested in.
Its your game, play what you want!
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1) Have you read Terry Prachett's works?2) How about Jim Butcher?
3) Alan Dean Foster?
4) The late David & Leigh Eddings?
5) The late Roger Zelazny?
A big ol' illiterate nope on all five. My tastes run toward--shockingly-- horror and classic horror at that. I've been intrigued by creepypasta as a concept and burgeoning subgenre for a while here and am currently reading a book born from Reddit called Penpals. I can't say I'm loving it, but it's not terrible. After that, I'm heading back into LeFanu, as I haven't actually read Uncle Silas. Beyond that, I think Michael McDowell's The Elementals is up.
Erik has also thoroughly distracted me by lending my his copy of Absolute Planetary. Which is probably the hottest brainfrack I've had all year.
6) Would a servant of Hell be able to negotiate being transformed into a specific type of devil upon death? Would such a clause reasonably require achieving certain goals while still mortal?
If he's cagey enough, sure. Mortals can out bargain devils, but they've got to be really clever and careful. Most won't be able to, but some might be able to leverage certain assets for a better position among the damned.
I'd also say that a devil probably can't grant a position greater than its own, and even then, only exceptional devils relying on special forces from Hell (or the patronage of higher infernal powers) can make such promises.
But say you're a mortal and you do all that, then die, then come back as, say... an erinyes. And then you're thrown in with all the other erinyes, who have suffered and struggled and raged over eons to attain their position. Do you think they're going to accept the mortal who cheated his way up the chain? Or do you think that they're going to make his Hell a literal Hell? And even if they didn't, that soul is arriving in Hell fresh and ignorant of Hell's ways, hierarchies, laws, and politics. He might have an easier time then if he started fresh, but for mortals, Hell will always be Hell, at least until it unmakes them in its image, but even then, whatever they were is long destroyed.
7) Is there an estimate for how long, on average, it takes a soul to make the transition to lemure? I'd assume some realms grind souls down faster than others, but is it normally a very long process? I'm currently under the impression that it normally takes centuries, if not longer.
It takes exactly as long as it takes a soul's personality to be consumed by endless pain and fear, reducing its psyche to a broken thing of desperate terror, viciousness, and violent ambition. Once this has occurred, gradually these emotions and drives will begin to manifest physically, atom by atom, as expressions of pure law and evil. Eventually, this new hellish form will beceome the wretched mass that is a lemure. And maybe from there, over ages of service and torment, such a being might be worthy of true service among the ranks of devilkind.
In other words, a long, long time, even by the considerations of beings that have no need for age or the measurement of time.
8) Am I correct in thinking that Hell has a number of "dead end" situations where a damned soul never even makes it to lemure status? Getting used as building materials in Dis, joining Belial's harem, getting used as parchment by Geryon's scribes, etc.?
Absolutely. Some souls become servants of a plane--outsider exemplar races--but some essentially become soul compost for the plane itself, new material of fundamental compatibility with a near infinite realm constantly being gnawed upon by the Maelstrom. In this way, souls--and probably the majority of souls--become the resources that allow planes to maintain their equilibrium even though its energies are constantly being lost to forces beyond its borders.
If you like horror, the Terry Pratchett book to go for would be The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents. Creepiest villain in a kid's book (that adults can really, really enjoy) ever!
(And, in a more "make fun of tropes" way, there's Carpe Jugulum.)
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... throw the fantasy trope of ending names with "-ia" in there...
Fantasy trope? You mean like all these fantastic countries:
Australia, India, Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Albania, Austria, Armenia, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Ethiopia, Gambia, Indonesia, Russia, Mauritania, Liberia, Namibia, Mongolia, Micronesia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Nigeria, Somalia, Syria; or maybe closer to home like, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Georgia, or California?:)
I mean like how some of the easiest ways to make any name sound more _.:'(_"PHANTASY"_)':._ is to slap a "ph," "x," "y," "z," or "-ia" into it.
In the case of the "-ia" suffix, this comes us again, both in place names (like Narnia, Teribithia, Vyleria, Rivia, Eluria, Celestia, etc) and in character names (like Wensicia, Alia, Phantasia, Nefaria, Zia). You're going to have trouble hitting "go" on any fantasy name generator more than a dozen times and not hitting a name (especially a female name) with this construction.
There are two angles on this that make it worth avoiding.
First, it comes up again and again in fantasy works, both those that get into print and in handovers bound for revision. Patterns like these are often born of real world naming conventions, but they are so overused and, in some cases, so obvious, that names that make anything less than awesome use of these constructions typically get changed. Sometimes you hit on something that works, but if someone gives me a manuscript with names like "Rockia," "Hatia," "Olia," "Bolia," "Davia," "Donnia," "Dekia," I'm probably going to change most of those. I just rattled those seven off, it's so ridiculously easy to take any sound, throw an "-ia" at the end and immediately it sounds fantasy. It requires next to no thought. And I expect more than "no thought" from my writers.
The other angle is exactly what you listed. There are thirty-one country names right there, all from the same world, all ending with the same construction. That's too many. If I were designing the world, I'd rename a bunch of those places.
Audacious? Maybe. But just because something works in the real world doesn't mean it works in fiction. Readers are much more critical of coincidence and happenstance in fiction then they are in life. Things that happen all the time--accidental deaths, similar names, wearing the same outfit, etc--aren't tolerated to the same extent in fiction. Typically such coincidences either end up being obvious and looking like lazy writing, or are blatantly confusing. Most authors avoid having two characters whose names even start with the same letter, and that happens all the time in the world around us. And just try and find a book where two main characters have the same name (and that's NOT the story's gimmick). Heck, at Paizo we have four people named "Chris." What would your reaction be to a book featuring four major players named "Chris?"
So yeah. Every genre has its tropes and patterns, its dos and don'ts, and little repetitive things editors see again and again and change again and again. Creatives who are alert for and avoid such things start off ahead of the pack.
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Thanks for coming here to answer questions. :)
Since James says you're the one to ask about devils then I'm going to do exactly that.
1. Given Hell's misogyny, why did the Whore Queens willingly serve Hell? Were angels prudes or something?
So here's an interesting distinction: Asmodeus has misogynistic tendencies (largely when it comes to rulers in his realm). That doesn't necessarily mean all of Hell is misogynistic. It's kind of like how a company is more than just the will of a single director. Sure that one figure influences the organization and things under his/her immediate control, but it doesn't necessarily make one's politics are the entire body's politics.
Asmodeus has eight lieutenants who serve him with varying degrees of--mostly--loyalty. Within their own domains, those archedevils are free to do what they will, to rule as they see fit. That's part of why the layers of Hell are so distinctive. While Asmodeus might not have welcomed any creatures that exclusively identify as women into his inner circle, that doesn't mean that his minions have the same damage.
Lets just look at the run down of Hell's major players:
Barbartos: Has no gender or concern for what form his minions take.
Dispater: Has been married three times, has good relations with his last wife, and has a statue in his hall of a lost beloved. Eiseth's fortress, Widow's Cry, is even situated at the heart of his city. Of all the archdevils, he is easily the one most interested in romantic relationships. (You can read more about Dispater, including details on his past wives, in Kobold Quartery #23.)
Mammon: Is a genderless genus loci. His gender is the same as that of a nickel.
Belial: Is also genderless, and eagerly embraces lovers of various genders (ages, races, species, mortalities, etc).
Geryon: Is male in the same way that King Kong is male. His interests are in secrets and knowledge and ruin, not the shape of the mouths his lies spill from.
Moloch: Cares for prowess. If you can fight for him and win, you're in.
Baalzebul: A genderless mass of flies, spawned from a genderless angel. He doesn't care about gender, largely because it's a concept he believes himself greater than.
Mephistopheles: A being sculpted from the body of Hell. Form is still something of a novelty to him, and the distinctions between genders are petty in the face of one who's known what it is to be a facet of the vast force and potential of a living plane of pure thought.
So that leaves...
Asmodeus: Who like Baalzebul, Dispater, and others, arose from the ranks of beings who know nothing of gender. So why would he have a grudge against women? Well against mortals, he doesn't, because he doesn't care--servants are servants, dirt is dirt, the temporary shape of collections of atoms destined to disperse is meaningless. But against immortal beings that choose to identify as women, that he would hold some sort of grudge... interesting, interesting...
Bear in mind, that despite his personal baggage, Asmodeus is still a genius beyond reckoning. Many of the gods, including Iomedae, have sought out his advice and he's granted it willingly and courts alliances with all of his peers. It doesn't serve him to rebuke any sort of potential ally from outside his realm. That's just short-sighted strategy. But within his own realm, in the hierarchy he dominates, even his tastes might be worn a bit too clearly on his sleeve. Is this an obvious tell by the archfiend, a ploy, or something else, few can say.
So why to Ardad Lili, Doloras, Eiseth, and Mahathallah serve Hell? In part because it's not all bad (for them).
First, they are still leaders among devilkind, and those evil souls who might not be inclined to worship Asmodeus or his archdevils are attracted to them.
Second, not being granted positions as archdevils does not mean that they're prejudiced against by the vast majority of Hell's inhabitants. In fact, it means that they're left without many of the responsibilities incumbent upon archdevils, granting them a freedom many of Hell's rulers don't enjoy.
Some like Eiseth and Doloras have sweet domains within Hell's lairs, the environment of which suits them like no place else in the planes. Mahathallah is a bit more of a wanderer, and comes and goes as she pleases--she's probably in Hell the least. As for Ardad Lili, she's the one probably the most likely to be offended, as she was actually there when the original archdevils were named (unlike the others who came later). For her, she has personal reasons.
As for the questions of were angels prudes? Oh, most assuredly many were. Asmodeus had more reasons to rebel then just mustache twirling after all.
2. Come to think of it, why would any woman willingly and knowingly serve hell?
Wooof. That's a question with a lot of answers, many tied into the darker sides of human nature. Lets start with the basics, some of which I've touched on above.
Asmodeus doesn't like powerful female servants among his commanders... for some reason. He doesn't care about mortal gender, though. This is seen in part by the support he's given female dominated devil worshiping factions, like House Thrune in Cheliax. Do right (or wrong in his case), further his goals, praise his name, etc, and you're in--how your tepid mortal organs arrange themselves not withstanding. After all, he's a genius, he's not so foolish as to simply alienate a significant population of potential worshipers just over some personal matter.
But even that is just worship of Asmodeus, a rather distinctive and separate thing from allegiance to Hell. The philosophy of diabolism, reverence for and emulation of the hierarchies of Hell, is distinct from worship of Asmodeus. As noted above, Asmodeus's tastes are not the only law of Hell. No form of sexism is ingrained in the hierarchies of Hell. With the variations and varieties between devilkind--and to a wider extent, all outsiders--and with the changeability of such beings, matters of gender often fall away as meaningless, quaint, or into the realm of useful tools. Because, do you really care about the gender of the being next to you when, on the other side there's a creature with no gender, a creature that's a thousand nameless genders, a creature that's a giant bug with genius-level intellect, and a being that's a sentient mass of spell-spewing worms.
Our mortal human concerns lose much of their scale in the face of infinity and potential beyond even a single universe's capacity to contain.
But even beyond all of that, why might a member of a group choose to turn against what they are to serve another group that hates them? History answers this for us a million terrible times. Evil, and what might drive one to evil, exists to depths of depravity even without the help of monsters and immortal corruptors. Pity those who face the machinations of more fit beings who actively seek to aid them in undoing themselves.
3. What reason does Asmodeus give for his misogyny?
He doesn't. And if he did, would it be wise to believe him? But he is, and few seem to know the reason.
If anyone does know, I would bet on Dispater, Baalzebul, Ardad Lili... maybe Shelyn... and maybe Urgathoa.
4. How does Belial's misogyny manifest? I ask because I'm guessing he torments male sex slaves as well.
Belial's!? Belial's got nothing but love for women... and men... and the dead... and the undead... and salmon... and vultures... and owlbears... and ant swarms... and flesh golems... and iron golems... and gibbering mouthers... and sycamore trees... and your grandmother's church... and your childhood stuffed animals... and...
5. For damned souls, is it worse for women than it is for men or are they tortured equally? Also, how does Hell's much-vaunted meritocracy work for damned women?
There's no difference. The damned are the damned, mortal gender has no relevance. In fact, a big portion of being damned (or a petitioner in general) is about losing your mortal identity and being reshaped as Hell (or your resident plane) wants and needs you. A few posts back I talked a bit about the refinement process Hell puts mortal souls through. Loosing your sense of self and everything that comprises it is fundamental to this.
6. Given the certainty of damnation, why would anyone sell his soul to a devil?
Christopher Marlowe certainly answers that more eloquently than I ever could. Beyond that, hubris and desperation play into it a lot.
And if you can't imagine reasons why you might sell your soul, I think that speaks very well of you. ;)
7. Hell's supposed to be about psychological torture but the torments written about seem physical. What am I missing?
There are a wide variety of torments detailed throughout Princes of Darkness--many drawn directly from or inspired by the Inferno. Some involve torture or physical labor, some involve conscription or being hunted, some involve isolation or being used as building materials, some involve being lost in the dark or in a wilderness, some involve the unthinkable, some involve worse.
All the while, insidious forces have the potential to make the damned their play thing. Each of these torments has a physical expression, but also a psychological expression. Some provoke helplessness, some desperation, some the hope of freedom and resulting disappointment, some simply being alone with nothing but one's self. And all promise fear--fear of pain, fear of betrayal, fear of the unknown, fear of becoming something else, fear of losing one's self, fear of never escaping, fear of losing control, fear of being revealed, fear of being judged, fear of being misjudged, fear of that, this, or the other thing. Some are blunt, some will be more subtle. Some might require only a taskmaster with a pointy rock, some might call for a cast of hundreds.
Hell's torments take a spectrum of forms impossible for sane mortal minds to full imagine (or even have the time in a single life to do so). Those listed are among the most common and those imposed upon the largest groups of the damned. Individual souls worthy of individual treatment by experienced tormentors are determined on a much more specialized and intimate basis.
Additionally, if there is a particular torment that you were hoping for that you didn't feel was represented, I assure you Hell has room for it.
8. Why does Pharasma let children sacrificed to Moloch linger in Hell? Or allow souls who don't belong there to be made into chortovs and zebubs?
Because the act of sacrifice circumvents Pharasma's influence. Statistically, this is the effect of the spell malediction.
9. Would you explain more about the transformation part of Zepar's portfolio?
I think Thomas Harris probably did better in Silence of the Lambs, if you want to use that as a departure point. Though I suspect Zepar has a broader imagination and encourages a far more diverse array of abductions and transformations. For a more classical array of suggestions, Occultopedia (Zepar) makes a fine starting point.
10. What's your opinion on Way of the Wicked's emphasis on Asmodeus? I know if I were evil I'd want to serve myself, not D&D's version of Darksied.
We've got a few folks here playing it and they're having a sadistically good time. But I'm interested if the appeal is the same after ten sessions. Evil can be a fun indulgence, thought experiment, or novelty, but does that appeal last? We'll see.
That being said, I do think an evil character's service to another can help stave off some of the problems evil parties often face in keeping together. If all the characters are out for themselves, as soon as the common need passes, they probably don't have much reason to stay united (unless they have more personal bonds--familial, romantic, incorporation, etc--which could be fascinating). Service to a deity, though, could help keep them together, as they retain a unified direction.
I think too often in the context of RPGs we think of characters with evil alignments as all being mustache twirlers. Think a bit about the 1st-level NPC-class evil characters, though. The evil miller who skims off the top, the evil banker who selfishly inflates his rates, the evil herdsman who beats his stock, the evil guard who takes bribes, the evil father who abuses his children, the evil kid who's bound for violence. These characters aren't foresworn to devils or tyrants, it's not that they don't love, or have friends, or hold down jobs, they're evil on a petty scale--perhaps a more real scale. You can have those petty evils on a larger sale too, but at that point you're adding power and wish fulfillment to these minor evils, which has as a way of making them more major. But it'd be interesting to make an evil character who isn't all about taking over the world or ruining this or that, but rather is wildly selfish, or a liar, or violent, or subtly demented--evil in a more real way.
Could be something there, and at the very least it could be a fun experiment.
In any case, thanks for all the great questions and the chance to get some of these ideas out in the open. Be sure to keep them coming!
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AlgaeNymph wrote:
3. What reason does Asmodeus give for his misogyny?
He doesn't. And if he did, would it be wise to believe him? But he is, and few seem to know the reason.If anyone does know, I would bet on Dispater, Baalzebul, Ardad Lili... maybe Shelyn... and maybe Urgathoa.
Interesting. His misogyny seems less 'institutional' and more personal.
Did somebody break Old Goatface's heart?
Because of the Rovagug story, I always wondered if he maybe had a thing for Sarenrae...
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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AlgaeNymph wrote:
3. What reason does Asmodeus give for his misogyny?
He doesn't. And if he did, would it be wise to believe him? But he is, and few seem to know the reason.If anyone does know, I would bet on Dispater, Baalzebul, Ardad Lili... maybe Shelyn... and maybe Urgathoa.
Interesting. His misogyny seems less 'institutional' and more personal.
Did somebody break Old Goatface's heart?
Because of the Rovagug story, I always wondered if he maybe had a thing for Sarenrae...
I was thinking exactly this.
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Hey Wes, did you know that in Yiddish folklore, Asmodeus (Ashmodai) has a daughter (by Lilit)...? (See the "Demon Princess," in Leaves of the Garden of Eden, by Howard Schwartz). Her kiss is death, however, one must be careful. Interestingly, her mother doesn't seem to have stuck around. She ends up marrying a nice Jewish boy.
Of course, since Ashmodai in Jewish thought isn't evil, but is simply an unpleasant instrument of Gd, there's no reason he can't be a loving father.
Hey Wes, did you know that in Yiddish folklore, Asmodeus (Ashmodai) has a daughter (by Lilit)...? (See the "Demon Princess," in Leaves of the Garden of Eden, by Howard Schwartz). Her kiss is death, however, one must be careful. Interestingly, her mother doesn't seem to have stuck around. She ends up marrying a nice Jewish boy.
Of course, since Ashmodai in Jewish thought isn't evil, but is simply an unpleasant instrument of Gd, there's no reason he can't be a loving father.
I'm not familiar with Leaves of the Garden of Eden. Correcting that now!
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After that, I'm heading back into LeFanu, as I haven't actually read Uncle Silas.
I had never heard of LeFanu before your post. I found a bunch of his works for free on my android kindle app, and have been enjoying his stuff all week! Thanks for mentioning him :)
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After that, I'm heading back into LeFanu, as I haven't actually read Uncle Silas.I had never heard of LeFanu before your post. I found a bunch of his works for free on my android kindle app, and have been enjoying his stuff all week! Thanks for mentioning him :)
How would you like Diana Rigg and Edward Gorey to tell you more?
IS THAT A LESHIE FAMILIAR?!
Also, favorite sandwich?
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Giant Hell Compilation: For anyone interested in Hell, I've pulled a lot of the discussion from the past several pages about Hell, devils, the Archdevils, the Whore Queens, and the damned and compiled them in a thread over here. Check it out, and thanks to everyone here for the great questions that led to this!
How would you like Diana Rigg and Edward Gorey to tell you more?After that, I'm heading back into LeFanu, as I haven't actually read Uncle Silas.I had never heard of LeFanu before your post. I found a bunch of his works for free on my android kindle app, and have been enjoying his stuff all week! Thanks for mentioning him :)
Oh my lanta, I loved that show so much D:
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I'm not familiar with Leaves of the Garden of Eden. Correcting that now!Hey Wes, did you know that in Yiddish folklore, Asmodeus (Ashmodai) has a daughter (by Lilit)...? (See the "Demon Princess," in Leaves of the Garden of Eden, by Howard Schwartz). Her kiss is death, however, one must be careful. Interestingly, her mother doesn't seem to have stuck around. She ends up marrying a nice Jewish boy.
Of course, since Ashmodai in Jewish thought isn't evil, but is simply an unpleasant instrument of Gd, there's no reason he can't be a loving father.
Um, this is the Amazon description:
"In Leaves from the Garden of Eden, Howard Schwartz, a three-time winner of the National Jewish Book Award, has gathered together one hundred of the most astonishing and luminous stories from Jewish folk tradition.
Just as Schwartz's award-winning book Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism collected the essential myths of Jewish tradition, Leaves from the Garden of Eden collects one hundred essential Jewish tales. As imaginative as the Arabian Nights, these stories invoke enchanted worlds, demonic realms, and mystical experiences. The four most popular types of Jewish tales are gathered here--fairy tales, folktales, supernatural tales, and mystical tales--taking readers on heavenly journeys, lifelong quests, and descents to the underworld. King David is still alive in the City of Luz, which the Angel of Death cannot enter, and somewhere deep in the forest a mysterious cottage contains the candle of your soul. In these stories, a bride who is not careful may end up marrying a demon, while the charm sewn into a dress may drive a pious woman to lascivious behavior. There is a dybbuk lurking in a well, a book that comes to life, and a world where Lilith, the Queen of Demons, seduces the unsuspecting. Here too are Jewish versions of many of the best-known tales, including "Cinderella," "Snow White," and "Rapunzel." Schwartz's retelling of one of these stories, "The Finger," inspired Tim Burton's film Corpse Bride.
With its broad selection from written and oral sources, Leaves from the Garden of Eden is a landmark collection, representing the full range of Jewish folklore, from the Talmud to the present."
So kinda a good resource. I recommend it.
The City and Luz and the candle of the soul... awesome.
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Now I think I want to run a Jewish folklore-themed AP. With a little bit of this book thrown in, as well.
Hmm. Golems. Gematria and Kaballah & the tree of life. Qlippoths. Dybbuks. Ashmodai and his daughter. Lilith, the screech-owl and her monstrous children. The Angel of Death. Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Tzadikim Nistarim. The Wandering Jew. The problem of Gd's absence.
Suitably reinterpreted it could be a really awesome campaign. But I'm not sure if it's publishable. Thoughts?
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Now I think I want to run a Jewish folklore-themed AP. With a little bit of this book thrown in, as well.
Hmm. Golems. Gematria and Kaballah & the tree of life. Qlippoths. Dybbuks. Ashmodai and his daughter. Lilith, the screech-owl and her monstrous children. The Angel of Death. Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Tzadikim Nistarim. The Wandering Jew. The problem of Gd's absence.
Suitably reinterpreted it could be a really awesome campaign. But I'm not sure if it's publishable. Thoughts?
No Golems?
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No Golems?Now I think I want to run a Jewish folklore-themed AP. With a little bit of this book thrown in, as well.
Hmm. Golems. Gematria and Kaballah & the tree of life. Qlippoths. Dybbuks. Ashmodai and his daughter. Lilith, the screech-owl and her monstrous children. The Angel of Death. Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Tzadikim Nistarim. The Wandering Jew. The problem of Gd's absence.
Suitably reinterpreted it could be a really awesome campaign. But I'm not sure if it's publishable. Thoughts?
Golems (read above).
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No Golems?Now I think I want to run a Jewish folklore-themed AP. With a little bit of this book thrown in, as well.
Hmm. Golems. Gematria and Kaballah & the tree of life. Qlippoths. Dybbuks. Ashmodai and his daughter. Lilith, the screech-owl and her monstrous children. The Angel of Death. Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Tzadikim Nistarim. The Wandering Jew. The problem of Gd's absence.
Suitably reinterpreted it could be a really awesome campaign. But I'm not sure if it's publishable. Thoughts?
Golems (read above).
Doh, well I've hopefully hit my stupid quota for the day.
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Now I think I want to run a Jewish folklore-themed AP.... The Wandering Jew.
You realize the Wandering Jew is basically the opposite of Jewish folklore, right? :-)
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I've been reading through the answers here, in the Hell thread, and in the Wrath of the Righteous thread, and I think I'd like to extend a general 'thank you' for the 'Heaven must be good' and 'Hell must be lawful' parts of the design philosophy. I support both of these and am particularly pleased to see a version of the Hell (in an alignment-based setting where it is defined as Lawful and Evil) where chaotic-style backstabbing / betrayal isn't the main way to get ahead.
Are their any interactions/relationships you can elaborate on between Asmodeus and the following deities?
Lamashtu- Pathfinder doesn't have the same demon/devil conflict that standard d&d has, but I'm curious about what conflicts(beyond her stealing from his kennels) these two have had. She's on the short list of deities he won't deal with, for obvious reasons, but have they ever had any personal interaction or meaningful conflict?
Charon- I've always imagined their relationship, however antagonistic, to be one of mutual respect, even if Asmodeus considers himself above Charon due to the daemon's status as a demigod. How far off base am I on this?
Dahak and/or Tiamat- One doesn't see Asmodeus having much influence on draconic affairs. Does he have any history with these deities and does he have many/any draconic worshipers at all?
The gods of the dark tapestry in general- Does he see them more as a threat on par with Rovagug; something that may require uniting with the other gods in order to combat? Does he see them more as rivals competing for wicked souls? Or does he see them as an asset he can use(Barbatos had to come from somewhere...)? Or a combination of the above?
Treerazer- How much would Asmodeus appreciate Treerazer's head being presented to him by one of his worshipers? Or would he prefer Treerazer bound and alive? Would he care, either way?
Are their any interactions/relationships you can elaborate on between Asmodeus and the following deities?
Lamashtu- Pathfinder doesn't have the same demon/devil conflict that standard d&d has, but I'm curious about what conflicts(beyond her stealing from his kennels) these two have had. She's on the short list of deities he won't deal with, for obvious reasons, but have they ever had any personal interaction or meaningful conflict?
Charon- I've always imagined their relationship, however antagonistic, to be one of mutual respect, even if Asmodeus considers himself above Charon due to the daemon's status as a demigod. How far off base am I on this?
Dahak and/or Tiamat- One doesn't see Asmodeus having much influence on draconic affairs. Does he have any history with these deities and does he have many/any draconic worshipers at all?
The gods of the dark tapestry in general- Does he see them more as a threat on par with Rovagug; something that may require uniting with the other gods in order to combat? Does he see them more as rivals competing for wicked souls? Or does he see them as an asset he can use(Barbatos had to come from somewhere...)? Or a combination of the above?
Treerazer- How much would Asmodeus appreciate Treerazer's head being presented to him by one of his worshipers? Or would he prefer Treerazer bound and alive? Would he care, either way?
Former Fiend - Wes has started a new thread for all of your questions about Hell right over here :)
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Now I think I want to run a Jewish folklore-themed AP.... The Wandering Jew.You realize the Wandering Jew is basically the opposite of Jewish folklore, right? :-)
Yes, but that doesn't prevent one from wanting to reimagine it. If one did a Jewish-themed adventure there's some traction for making it a positive or at least a nuanced idea. Or I could simply use Elijah, who bears a resemblance to Al-Khidr and hence to the idea as well.