Mithril Shirt vs. Mithril Kikko vs. Celestial Armor


Advice

Scarab Sages

So, I'm running a Dawnflower Dervish bard in a campaign that will get to level 20. I'm expecting to get to 28 Dex. I'm not sure what armor I want to use and could use some advice. Celestial Armor seems like the obvious choice, but I'm also worried about the -2 ACP. DM will not allow "Mithril Celestial Armor".

Money is not a concern either. Unless I'm missing something, Mithril Kikko will always be better for bards than Mithril Shirt. Right?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

you can always blow a feat on arcane armor training.

You don't actually need to worry about the dex until your Dex is in excess of 21. At that point, I'd probably take the Celestial Mail and make sure to ask your DM if you can buff it to +5. IF he doesn't let you advance it, just go with a mithril chain shirt unless you're doing arcane armor training.

==Aelryinth


spell failure isn't an issue, just proficiency. As I recall, celestial armor is light armor, it's written right into the description, so armor proficiency isn't an issue and neither is spell failure.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You could add a Mithral Armored Kilt to Celestial Armor.

You could then add the Comfort ability to reduce the Armor Check Penalty.


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Arcane Armor Training is an awful feat line. Eats up your swift action every turn you try to cast. Swift actions can be pretty valuable depending on who you are and what your doing.
Edit: with that much dex your in light armor and it shouldn't come up actually...

28 dex? You'll hit the dex cap on most everything. Mithril chain shirt is only a +6 on its own, so if you nab that you'll probably cap out and have 0 ACP . -2 ACP probably won't hurt that much if at all, so the celestial armor will probably work out when you nab that later on(that is, if you don't start with it)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I think when he says ACP he means arcane spell failure chance, which with kikko will still be 10% with mithral.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

I think when he says ACP he means arcane spell failure chance, which with kikko will still be 10% with mithral.

==Aelryinth

Its light armor, he's a bard. He can cast in it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

kikko is actually medium armor. It's only treated as light armor for movement when mithral.

==Aelryinth

Sczarni

That's why he needs that 0 ACP, to negate the lack of proficiency.

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

I think when he says ACP he means arcane spell failure chance, which with kikko will still be 10% with mithral.

==Aelryinth

ACP, I believe, is Armor Check Penalty...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

ACP is a negligible effect of the armor...skill checks are easy to do. He'll still take the arcane spell failure chance even if the ACP is 0.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

kikko is actually medium armor. It's only treated as light armor for movement when mithral.

==Aelryinth

PFSRD wrote:
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Says its one category lighter and treated as such, and it specifies ACP and proficiency as still being the previous category, but not movement speed or spell casting failure. It doesn't say "only affects movement" anywhere.

Sczarni

Unless there's been clarification, it's debatable:

SRD wrote:
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:

kikko is actually medium armor. It's only treated as light armor for movement when mithral.

==Aelryinth

Actually, it is "Movement and other limitations." Totally DM dependent territory.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

movement and other limitations.

Arcane spell casting is not a limitation.

it specifically says he's going to get -10% to arcane casting failure, that's it. It's not going to go away because he's proficient in casting in light armor...it's still considered medium for any proficiency purpose.

However, I see his point about the ACP now. THe penalty to ATTACK ROLLS is something you really want to avoid, and he doesn't want to blow a feat on proficiency to do it.

==Aelrynth


Aelryinth wrote:

movement and other limitations.

Arcane spell casting is not a limitation.

it specifically says he's going to get -10% to arcane casting failure, that's it. It's not going to go away because he's proficient in casting in light armor...it's still considered medium for any proficiency purpose.

To you maybe, however...

Abadar wrote:
Unless there's been clarification, it's debatable

Personally, I disagree with you. No point in debating.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

"This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor."

Pretty clear right there. Proficient in casting arcane spells in light armor isn't going to apply to medium.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

"This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor."

Pretty clear right there. Proficient in casting arcane spells in light armor isn't going to apply to medium.

==Aelryinth

To you, and your not authority. I just said I didn't want to debate it and you then say your actually correct and there is no questioning it. I've always played it as though it made it lighter for spell casting, and its up to the GM of the OP anyway.

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:

"This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor."

Pretty clear right there. Proficient in casting arcane spells in light armor isn't going to apply to medium.

==Aelryinth

Proficiency in wearing the armor has nothing to do with one's ability to cast in armor.

PRD wrote:
A character who is wearing armor with which he is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving.

That is all lacking the proficiency does.

But again, this is totally DM call territory.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Outside of proficiency, Mithral medium armor is treated as Light Armor for all purposes.

This has been by confirmed by Developers.

In fact, the proficiency thing was the only change from 3.5 to Pathfinder.

In 3.5, it was treated as Light for every purpose.

Scarab Sages

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So, the differences in a nutshell:

Mithril Shirt: No Spell Fail, 0 ACP, +6 Dex, +4 AC
Mithril Kikko: 10% Spell Fail, 0 ACP, +6 Dex, +5 AC
Celestial Armor: No Spell Fail, -2 ACP, +8 Dex, +6 AC
(Note that Celestial comes as +3, Light Chainmail, and may be increased to +5)

Am I worrying about the -2 ACP too much? Celestial the hands down choice?


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Yeah, don't forget the gold differences. Nothing is going to beat that celestial armor. I'd wear the mithral shirt at first if I were. Cost about 3000 less gold and at early levels that's pretty important I think. You can just put a +2 on it for about the price of upgrading to the kikko, and you'll eventually replace the kikko.


Aelryinth wrote:

"This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor."

Pretty clear right there. Proficient in casting arcane spells in light armor isn't going to apply to medium.

==Aelryinth

He doesn't have proficiency in casting spells in light armor. He has light armor proficiency.

He has the ability to cast spells in light armor.

Mithril medium armor is considered light armor for everything BUT proficiency.(ACP is very relevant if you're not proficient with the armor, because then it takes off a wider variety of skills and attack rolls)

Proficiency from mithral kikko armor is pretty irrelevant, so it works.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Armor Proficiency, and the Bard's ability to avoid spell failure in Light Armor are unrelated.

There is no "proficiency in casting spells in light armor".

That is a made up mish-mash of related things likely due to confusion.

Scarab Sages

So, no spell failure in Mithril Kikko for bards?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Razell wrote:
So, no spell failure in Mithril Kikko for bards?

That's right.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

If you accept it's light armor and not mithral medium armor, no spell failure, correct.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It is Light Armor, for all purposes, other than proficiency.

You could houserule otherwise, but that sort of makes the cost of Mithral a bit too much for what you gain.


Razell wrote:

So, the differences in a nutshell:

Mithril Shirt: No Spell Fail, 0 ACP, +6 Dex, +4 AC
Mithril Kikko: 10% Spell Fail, 0 ACP, +6 Dex, +5 AC
Celestial Armor: No Spell Fail, -2 ACP, +8 Dex, +6 AC
(Note that Celestial comes as +3, Light Chainmail, and may be increased to +5)

Am I worrying about the -2 ACP too much? Celestial the hands down choice?

Actually, you don't have an ACP in Celestial Armor. Last sentence of the description: "It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day". As a bard you have light armor proficiency.

For futher entertainment, I believe that you can in fact change the armor type from Chainmail; one of the AP's introduced Celestial Plate Armor. Presumably therefore you could have a Celestial Breastplate... which would further improve you max dex...

Liberty's Edge

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pad300 wrote:
Actually, you don't have an ACP in Celestial Armor. Last sentence of the description: "It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day". As a bard you have light armor proficiency.

Actually, he does have ACP in light armor, rather or not you have the proficiency matters in what the ACP applies to, not rather or not you have one.

Quote:
For futher entertainment, I believe that you can in fact change the armor type from Chainmail; one of the AP's introduced Celestial Plate Armor. Presumably therefore you could have a Celestial Breastplate... which would further improve you max dex...

If your DM allows you to custom design magical items, than it is possible he will allow celestial breastplate. If he does not than you're out of luck. RAW doesn't actually give rules for "celestial" add ons to armor.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, slap the Comfort enchantment on the Celestial Armor, and get the Armor Expert trait.

Now, you have an ACP of 0.


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ShadowcatX wrote:
pad300 wrote:
Actually, you don't have an ACP in Celestial Armor. Last sentence of the description: "It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day". As a bard you have light armor proficiency.

Actually, he does have ACP in light armor, rather or not you have the proficiency matters in what the ACP applies to, not rather or not you have one.

No, Celestial and Mithral are 2 different things. Mithral counts as 1 level lighter for everything but proficiency: "This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor". Celestial Armor on the other hand, does not have that qualifier; it counts as light armor for proficiency.

Scarab Sages

You know, the -2 ACP isn't as bad as I thought. My Dex is super high anyway, and I can use the innate Fly to overcome some of the Str checks.

I'm having trouble finding the Comfort enchantment. Link?


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Here's a link Its not the most common enchant, but its legal in PFS and its actually very nice, if a little expensive at lower levels.

Silver Crusade

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Razell wrote:

You know, the -2 ACP isn't as bad as I thought. My Dex is super high anyway, and I can use the innate Fly to overcome some of the Str checks.

I'm having trouble finding the Comfort enchantment. Link?

Armor ointment is an an alchemical item that reduces ACP by 1 for 8 hours, at 30 GP a pop.

Grand Lodge

Actually in the Danish pathfinder society we are currently having this talk. I can not see how mithril aids in kikko armor. Rules stats that mithril should be primary component. In kikko armor primary component is cloth not metal. Yes it has metal buti it isn't the primary component. I know lots will hate that because it's a superb and cheap way to get rid of the armor problems with medium armor. But folk it's made of cloth hence do not gain the effect of mithril


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If you have already established that Celestial is a template that you can apply to any armor, why not toss it on a breastplate, which has a reduced ACP compared to chain. This would bring the ACP down to -1 and also bump the Dex to AC by one. Then you can stack a trait on that such as Armor Expert or Armor Mastery which reduces all ACP by 1 to get ACP of 0. Note that this would allow you to wear such armor even lacking the proficiency without taking a penalty to attacks or checks, or rather you take the penalty but it is zero.


DickovDK wrote:

Actually in the Danish pathfinder society we are currently having this talk. I can not see how mithril aids in kikko armor. Rules stats that mithril should be primary component. In kikko armor primary component is cloth not metal. Yes it has metal buti it isn't the primary component. I know lots will hate that because it's a superb and cheap way to get rid of the armor problems with medium armor. But folk it's made of cloth hence do not gain the effect of mithril

PFSRD wrote:
Kikko armor consists of hexagonal plates made from iron and sewn to cloth. The plates may be hidden by a layer of cloth or left exposed.

Kikko Armor is made of metal. It wouldn't be very protective if it wasn't. Even Silken Ceremonial Armor has some metal, thought a lot less.


In my games, since Celestial Chain and Plate do not state what they are made of, I rule theat they are made of iron/steel that is made in a way that only Celestials and those that are trained by them know how to make. They use iron/steel because other metals are so expensive comparatively speaking. Mithril and Glassteel could both used for any Celestial armor and reduce the ACP by 2, the ASF by 10% and the weight by 1/2, and for Glassteel have a hardness of 20, and add DR to the armor like regular Adamantine. Glassteel also grants a bonus to Perception checks to see if the person is wearing armor as it is clear as glass...

This is only my ruling as a DM. I don't remember what material Glassteel comes from, but it's been my players favorite since I introduced it to them, even though it has a very exorbitant cost lol


There are two traits that reduce your ACP by one. Take both and you have no problem. Armor Expert (combat) and Sargavan Guard (region).


Trait bonuses do not stack. Make sure to read them both. With luck one will be untyped. . . not likely though


Where is there a trait bonus in those? All I see are reduction in penalties and that isn't a type or a bonus.


bracers of armor? just sayin.


Emmanuel Nouvellon-Pugh wrote:
bracers of armor? just sayin.

The difference is 5 AC and fly 1/day for the same price. The armor is just plain better.

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