We are at a part in our ap where the bad guy is flying around instead of facing us like a man. Our alchemist is also flying and wants to ram him. The rules state if you have wings you can collide and make a fly check. But this is magical coward flight. I guess we could wait around for 24 hours for him to come down. But the alchemist wants to ram him/ collide with him and force him to fall what are the rules for such a maneuver?
I'd probably use Grapple and/or combat maneuvers like Drag, Reposition, etc.
It's essentially a bull rush check in the air. Perhaps contesting fly checks since one of them is trying to over-power him.
you can fly with only the weight you can carry.
Unless the other party is extremely weak, he'll probably be able to support your weight.
The Bull Rush check can be made to force him in any direction...including down. Then have someone make a jump check for height, grab him and bring him down.
Note that 'cowardly flying and staying away from melee' also means 'volunteering for full attack volleys from archer.' A smart fighter always carries a ranged weapon.
==Aelryinth
Anyone have Dispel Magic?
Where are you getting they still fly if knocked out?
Can I take a move action to jump then at the apex attack using standard action ?
The spell has a duration and doesn't require concentration.
Staying in the air is a valid tactic. Why doesn't anyone have missile weapons?
We are at a part in our ap where the bad guy is flying around instead of facing us like a man. Our alchemist is also flying and wants to ram him. The rules state if you have wings you can collide and make a fly check. But this is magical coward flight. I guess we could wait around for 24 hours for him to come down. But the alchemist wants to ram him/ collide with him and force him to fall what are the rules for such a maneuver?
If only bad guys were stupid, life would be grand.
As a DM, I'd allow one flying creature to try to grapple another mid-air. If successful, the target would then have a heavy load. That's about as good as it gets by the rules.
What you're really looking for is dispel magic. See, magic-users are a great weapon to use against magic users. It sounds like you've got a bunch of steroid-inflated melee guys to me. If so, that's going to get really rough as you advance. A mixture of abilities that complement one another is key.
Can I take a move action to jump then at the apex attack using standard action ?
yes, jumping is part of normal movement.
==Aelryinth
steroid-inflated
Can I take a move action to jump then at the apex attack using standard action ?yes, jumping is part of normal movement.
==Aelryinth
I am not so sure.
You make a move action, ending it mid-air. Being in the air, without flying, results in you falling down. Thus you be at the ground when you get to take your standard action.This move is one of the situations, where spring attack is a great feat to have.
It could also be done with ride-by-attack and a jumping mount.
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Reposition could work, 5 feet at a time. Bull Rush can also work. But again, 5 feet at a time (maybe 10, even 15, if the checks are really good).
Where are you getting they still fly if knocked out?
Fly and Overland Flight have a duration based on the caster level, and don't require concentration checks. That means becoming stunned, paralyzed, sickened or staggered doesn't cause you to fall, nor does becoming unconscious.
Can I take a move action to jump then at the apex attack using standard action ?yes, jumping is part of normal movement.
==Aelryinth
I am not so sure.
You make a move action, ending it mid-air. Being in the air, without flying, results in you falling down. Thus you be at the ground when you get to take your standard action.This move is one of the situations, where spring attack is a great feat to have.
It could also be done with ride-by-attack and a jumping mount.
Spring attack would allow you to move and avoid the AoE. I said nothing about not getting AoE'd if appropriate.
he'd go up, hit the guy, and yes, he'd fall down if he missed. That's exactly akin to jumping, landing on a concealed pit, and falling down. Nothing special about it. If it's an armored fighter vs a spellcaster, he'll likely overload the spell and drag him down by weight if he manages to grab hold.
==Aelryinth
Spring attack would allow you to move and avoid the AoE. I said nothing about not getting AoE'd if appropriate.
he'd go up, hit the guy, and yes, he'd fall down if he missed. That's exactly akin to jumping, landing on a concealed pit, and falling down. Nothing special about it. If it's an armored fighter vs a spellcaster, he'll likely overload the spell and drag him down by weight if he manages to grab hold.
==Aelryinth
The reason I mention Spring Attack, is that it allow you to move before and after the attack.
Normally you don't get to do that. And nothing in the rules suggest that you get to take an action before the falling rules sets in.
It is not comparable to jumping on to a concealed pit, as the problem isn't the jumping and falling down part, but the attempt to take an action in-between.
The spell has a duration and doesn't require concentration.
It requires a skill check to remain airborne and hover. The modifier for the spell helps you do that, but when you are unconscious you can't make skill checks. You'll start falling...although it's built into the spell that you 'feather fall' when you do.
that also happens if you get dispelled in mid-flight...you drift slowly down to the ground.
==Aelryinth
We do have misslr weapons he is just to damn high to hit
?? The range of a bow is the same vertically or horizontally (technically it should be half, but still). You can shoot at something 300' in the air.
and if he's that high up, just get some cover or make some concealment. a fog cloud or something that cuts his line of sight gives him no targets for spells.
If you've a summoner, call in some fliers to bring him down.
I'd just have your Alchemist imbibe an Enlarge potion, grapple him, overload his fly spell, and then bull rush straight down.
==Aelryinth
Not only would bull rush apply here, I think you should get the distance moved doubled to reflect smashing them down with the aid of gravity (and on the other hand, bull rushing or flap jacking someone into the air should take 10 ft of success to move 5 ft up).
The alternative is to use elemental body or wildshape to turn into an earth elemental (assuming you have wings discovery, flight magic, or something to remain aloft) and then just grapple him and stop trying to keep yourself aloft. Earth elementals are ridiculously heavy.
The spell has a duration and doesn't require concentration.
Neither does walking or flying with wings, if you are unconscious you fall down, the spell would however not end meaning you would not enter feather fall stage.
"See Falling Damage if something bad happens!"
?? The range of a bow is the same vertically or horizontally (technically it should be half, but still). You can shoot at something 300' in the air.
and if he's that high up, just get some cover or make some concealment. a fog cloud or something that cuts his line of sight gives him no targets for spells.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, ranged weapons can go range increment times 5, so your composite longbow is going to shoot up to 550 feet in game. If you want some extra fun, hire a Zen Archer monk with high jump and shot on the run, then watch her jump 30 feet straight up and fire at the top of the arc.
Throw in some seeking ammunition, or even some smoke arrows, tangleshot, thistle arrows, raining arrows (for flying undead), explosive arrows, grappling arrows... Check out the trick arrows in Elves of Golarion and turn Hawkeye loose on him. (Can you tell what my favorite build is?)
Also, what's your motivation for this fight? If he's so high he's out of your reach completely, he's out past long range for his spells, too. Just walk away. He'll either come lower to get you or bugger off.
(Here, I'm assuming he can't really command minions from that far out, and any nefarious plans will probably fizzle without his input, too.)
Cast summon monsrter 2, 4,6, or 8. Air elementals have air superiority or air mastery. They could take him out relatively easily.
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Doesn't the fly spell specifically say flying requires about as much concentration as walking? Walking people fall down when they lose consciousness. I see no reason this would be any different.
I agree with raving dork
He is 60 ft off the ground surrounded by a cloud of darkness. I have dark vision 60 ft but need to be directly over him with a borrowed heavy cross bow to even get a shot off. The problem is we are spent I am down to 1 point of ki left out go 11. It takes me full round to reload my cross bow. The odds are in our favor he has to eventually land or sleep. I am thinking of leaving the battle and just waiting in his bedroom he has to sleep some time. I do have shrikes and darts and tube shooters. I am a ninja after all
We have a stone lord paladin
An alchemist
An sorcerer
A awakened dog barbarian
Anyone have Dispel Magic?
I didn't see where you answered this question.
It's a good question.
The alchemist has dispell bombs i don't know if she is out though
The sorcerer has no dispels. He is to busy running from a fight to be much use anyway.
So the question is now "How do I catch my coward party members and make them do their damn job?".
wait, he's 60 feet up and out of your ranged weapons range? you need to start carrying actual ranged weapons, not just throwing weapons.
wait, he's 60 feet up and out of your ranged weapons range? you need to start carrying actual ranged weapons, not just throwing weapons.
I have a cross bow I borrowed from the blind oracle. But it takes a full round action to reload so we will be here forever if you throw in miss chance.
It is just such a stupid tactic our dm only does what the book says a guy does regardless of if it drags out combat. W save killed 20 plus urdafins and aqua demons or zoidbergs this guy should be pooping his pants not flying around stalling.He should be terrified of us and run away or surrender. Eventually I will kill him now because he has dragged it out.
Apparently with the thousand fangs below ap you are supposed to make allies. So far we have screwed every thing up! And killed every body's in our defense nobody wants to listen to reason. We had so e drow assassin hold a knife to the paladins throat and not speak dwarf. So that ended well we accidentally fire balled a room full of moor locks. But they started throwing rocks first. We are the worst adventuring party ever and it has been a blast fumbling our way through this book
Though without giving spoilers it seems every encounter is set up to fail. With the moor locks after we fight 100 evil ones who try to kill us we opens door to see 20'more who attempt to kill us. We are supposed to not kill and be friends because they are not throwing spears but rocks.
So why do none of your spellcasters know Fly?
That's like...specllcaster 101 "Invisibility and Fly are your best friends".
Send one of your big guys up after him and beat the s@#* out of him. Or hell, have the Alchemist chuck bombs at him. Dispelling Bombs, preferably, since they do damage AND have the possibility of dropping him down.
Well as one of the spell casters in question, I honestly went for as many protection and charm spells as I could with him. I was picking spells for the characters personality rather than worrying about anything else. I intended to add flight eventually, but where I was bringing him in at 12 level it felt less important when I could teleport or dimension door. It was a question for the character of "how can I run away faster"... And then turn around and dominate someone else into doing my dirty work. The ninja is legit.
It is just such a stupid tactic our dm only does what the book says a guy does regardless of if it drags out combat. W save killed 20 plus urdafins and aqua demons or zoidbergs this guy should be pooping his pants not flying around stalling.
Wait, what? This guy has a tactic that is making you waste your resources - softening you - and you think he's stupid? I suspect you may have that a tiny bit slightly incorrect. This is what smart looks like. You should be doing plenty of this to your opponents.
He should be terrified of us and run away or surrender.
Why? What have you done to give him the idea you're a threat to him? It sounds to me like you're basically not. He gets to - at the very least - learn every trick you've got. He gets to take your measure, even if he can't actually outright defeat you this way. Tomorrow, when everyone's rested, he knows what you can do, and can adjust his tactics to best fight you.
Eventually I will kill him now because he has dragged it out.
Again I'm confused. If he just let you kill him then you wouldn't? He's in for a real killing now that he's not made it easy for you to kill him?
Apparently with the thousand fangs below ap you are supposed to make allies. So far we have screwed every thing up! And killed every body's in our defense nobody wants to listen to reason.
So... no Diplomacy skill points in the party anywhere? Or just bad rolls all the time? Or forgetting to ask for rolls?
We had so e drow assassin hold a knife to the paladins throat and not speak dwarf. So that ended well we accidentally fire balled a room full of moor locks. But they started throwing rocks first.
Poop happens. It's how you deal with it that matters. I can't say if these situations were handled well or poorly. Not enough detail. But I have a funny feeling that it might be useful if you took one more step into your characters' world. Remember that to you it's just a game but to them it's literally life and death. They'd avoid fighting and they'd avoid fatal fighting as much as possible while still getting their jobs done. Sometimes it's best to let some morlocks throw some stones to demonstrate you're Totally Badass and their attacks are of no consequence. Just a thought. Mind-warfare.
We are the worst adventuring party ever and it has been a blast fumbling our way through this book
Biggest bit of advice I can give is that the smarter you play, the easier the game gets. Hack & slash is fun. But knowing when to not run into a room, knowing when to fall back and force the enemy to come to you... that can be even more fun. Not only do you crush your enemies but you humiliate them at the same time.
Though without giving spoilers it seems every encounter is set up to fail. With the moor locks after we fight 100 evil ones who try to kill us we opens door to see 20'more who attempt to kill us. We are supposed to not kill and be friends because they are not throwing spears but rocks.
If someone threw a rock at you, would that justify killing them in return?
Many adventure paths dangle opportunities in front of players. It isn't that you're "supposed" to do any one thing, but that if you notice and take advantage of opportunities your way forward becomes easier. It's HARD to notice those opportunities. I know. I screw up way more often than I probably should. But if you watch for them, if you imagine your character wanting desperately to find an option that DOESN'T involve him/her maybe dying over some thrown rocks, you might have more fun.
So, back to topic. This flying darkness bad guy. Stop playing to his strengths. Take cover, somewhere his mobility can't work. Make him come to you. Mush his face. Take his stuff.
You're a ninja (monk) right? The punk is 60 feet up and an arcane caster? Unless you cashiered the monk's disgustingly nasty speed and ability to jump tall buildings in a single bound, you should be able to jump up and grapple him.
Also: thrown weapons have a range limit of 5x increment; projectile weapons have a range limit of 10x increment. The heavy crossbow can theoretically hit a target the better part of 400 yards away (if you can see it).
No one in the party has daylight spells to counter the darkness?
You're a ninja (monk) right? The punk is 60 feet up and an arcane caster? Unless you cashiered the monk's disgustingly nasty speed and ability to jump tall buildings in a single bound, you should be able to jump up and grapple him.
Vertical jump DC is 4x the height you want to jump. Jumping 60 ft into the air like an anime character requires a DC 240 check and is literally impossible to ever do.
Whether there are buildings or objects or something to jump off of for less of a high jump I don't know, but even jumping 20 ft up is a DC 80 and not freaking happening.
Vertical jump DC is 4x the height you want to jump. Jumping 60 ft into the air like an anime character requires a DC 240 check and is literally impossible to ever do.
Whether there are buildings or objects or something to jump off of for less of a high jump I don't know, but even jumping 20 ft up is a DC 80 and not freaking happening.
technically it is a 120 dc my dc are halved......
Lobolusk and Rynjin's avatars are confusing me so much. For a sec, I seriously thought he was arguing with himself.
Lobolusk and Rynjin's avatars are confusing me so much. For a sec, I seriously thought he was arguing with himself.
I confused myself the first time we were in the same thread too, don't worry.
Honestly, I say if the dispelling bombs don't work, cut your losses and run, regroup and figure something out.
Dimension door and grapple him.
Using dimension door effectively ends your turn.
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.
We are at a part in our ap where the bad guy is flying around instead of facing us like a man.
But this is magical coward flight.
You seem fixated on the "coward" thing. He's one man against 4, using sound strategy and the tools at hand (flight is his tool) to defeat a larger group of enemies. Would you suggest that, in modern warfare, the crew of a bomber should land their airplane and get out to battle an enemy army on foot, otherwise they're cowardly?
Just because your enemy cleverly used a tool you don't have, doesn't make him a coward, nor does the fact that it frustrates you.
I guess we could wait around for 24 hours for him to come down. But the alchemist wants to ram him/ collide with him and force him to fall what are the rules for such a maneuver?
Probably way less than 24 hours - not many magical means of flight let him stay up for that long, or even close to it. As for the collision idea, that's what the grapple rules are for. They should work well enough airborne or afoot.
He is 60 ft off the ground surrounded by a cloud of darkness.
Darkness does not usually make him impossible to see - it usually just reduces the light by one category, so if it's daylight, then his "cloud of darkness" is really just a cloud of bad lighting - you can still see and target him but your attacks that hit his AC have a 20% chance of missing anyway. If it's actually darker than that, say, Deeper Darkness, then the same still applies but the miss chance is 50%.
I have dark vision 60 ft but need to be directly over him with a borrowed heavy cross bow to even get a shot off.
Over him? Do you mean you need him to be directly over you? Yes, if you want to see him perfectly. You can still get the shot off with the miss chance I mentioned above.
We do have misslr weapons he is just to damn high to hit
I thought you said he was only 60' up?
The range on a heavy crossbow is 120', he's only half of that, you can shoot at him with no range penalty.
If he flies higher, you actually get 10 range increments. That means you can shoot 1,200 feet. Every 120' after the first causes a -2 "range" penalty on your attack roll.
It takes me full round to reload my cross bow.
So shoot once every two rounds. Find some cover if you can to avoid they flyer's attacks while you reload.
The odds are in our favor he has to eventually land or sleep.
It's a guarantee.
I am thinking of leaving the battle and just waiting in his bedroom he has to sleep some time.
And YOU called HIM a coward? Pot, kettle, you're both the same color here...
I do have shrikes and darts and tube shooters. I am a ninja after all
You know you can throw those darts 100', right, and so can the others in your group (if they have hands) - although the range penalty can get pretty steep.
We have a stone lord paladin
This guy didn't bring a bow? Anything?
An alchemist
No range attacks? He's flying, he can get pretty close, anything he does can damage the guy. Does he have bombs? Give him those darts, let him fly close and minimize the range penalty.
An sorcerer
Magic Missile? Anything? Not one ranged spell on his list? If the player is having his sorcerer just run away, maybe have a talk with the player about working as a team rather than running away.
A awakened dog barbarian
He can bark, I suppose. Probably not much else.