After brainstorming about all kinds of different support characters I could make, I've decided an aspect I'd like to focus on is helping other characters get extra attacks. I like that a whip allows me to stay out of the way of the melee characters and trip the opponent so the melee characters get AoOs when the enemy stands back up, and ultimately at level 9 I can take Greater Trip and get AoOs when the enemy first falls also. I'd really like it to be a bard so I can be performing and cast Haste and such to support in more typical ways as well.
I know it's an atypical trip build because more often people go a more combat oriented class and focus on ways they can deal damage for themselves once the enemy is tripped, but I'm not as interested in that.
Starting stats I'm looking at:
STR: 17
DEX: 12
CON: 13
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Feats I'm looking at:
Level 1 (Human Bonus Feat): Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Level 3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip
Level 5: Weapon Focus: Whip
Level 7: Whip Mastery? Or maybe something to boost my casting side? Maybe Improved Disarm?
Level 9: Greater Trip (Finally)
Level 11: Discordant Voice (Just because I love this feat)
So roughly, combat would be giving some buffs...Inspire Courage, Good Hope, Haste, and then standing back a bit for some trips and try and maximize how many times my party gets to attack.
Am I way off the mark or does my concept have some merit? I am very new to tabletop RPGs so I know I could be missing obvious things or just not know enough about high level gaming to know what actually can work. I know one issue to consider is what will I do in fights where the opponent cannot be tripped - I think I'm just planning on emphasizing casting (maybe a wand or two?) in those encounters. Or maybe disarming? I'm not really interested in using a more standard reach/trip weapon because I already have a PFS that uses reach weapons so I'm trying to incorporate some variety.
Thoughts? Suggestions? If you think the idea is way off the mark, let me know if you have other ideas for a character (hopefully bard?) that can maximize the number of attacks my teammates can make.
Using a whip might be difficult in the early levels, but it has lots of good flavor associated with it. Usually it requires heavy optimization and good system mastery, but it's lots of fun to play.
Just dropping off a few suggestions: Dazzling Display and Prehensile Whip trait (not sure if it's legal in PFS). Performance Combat in general could pick you up some bonuses if your DM is lenient on the situations when you can use it.
If I can remember any more later, I'll pop back in.
I use a whip bard that specializes in control (+37 grapple) and secondary (trips). The whip build does have merit. The drawback is lack of damage, but for a support character, you are not really there to do DPS anyways and the added control is a huge plus for support.
First of all, you don't need Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat because bards automatically get whips as a free proficiency. That saves you a feat slot.
The feat that you really need is Improved Whip Mastery or else you will not be able to threaten with reach. The earliest you can get it is level 7 or +5 BAB with a bard.
My thoughts regarding improved disarm...you don't really need it. Chances are with your 15' reach, you will outrange your opponent and they will not be able to take advantage of an AoO if you disarm. Secondly, disarms, trips and sunder, are the three combat maneuvers that benefit from Weapon Focus, Weapon Magic Enhancements, and Weapon Training. Your disarm cmb will be sufficiently high. Third, it's useless against monsters with natural attacks which will account for 75% of your encounters. So you will have a feat that will sit idle for most of your character's career.
I recommend combat reflexes as a choice that will go nicely with greater trips. I've seen that save people during surprise rounds when the encounters ambush.
Your revised build will probably look like this:
1st Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3rd Weapon Focus (pre-req for Whip Mastery)
5th Whip Mastery (pre-req for Imp. Whip Mastery)
7th Improved Whip Mastery
9th Greater Trip
11th Discordant Voice
With Discordant Voice, you will not be able to get combat reflexes. If you want Discordant Voice, you may need to give up Greater Trip. All Greater Trip will do is give you an AoO once you trip and your damage will be low and against creatures with DR, it is a waste. The benefit is the extra +2 cmb to trip.
Items that will boost your trip cmb
- Resonating Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (slotted in wayfinder) for +2 insight cmb/cmd
- Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (+ 2 Trip)
- boost weapon magical enchancement
- your bard's song will give you competence bonus.
- belt of giant strength
By level 11th, with the appropriate gear, you are looking at a cmb of about 27 cmb (without greater trip) 29 cmb (with greater trip) and 23 cmb (with disarm)
Breakdown
+8 BAB
+6 STR (22 STR)
+3 weapon magical bonus
+1 weapon focus
+2 insight bonus (resonating ioun stone)
+2 improved trip
+2 gauntlets of skilled maneuver
+3 inspire courage competence bonus
What I learned based on the cmds of the creatures I catalogued, it is more difficult to trip than to grapple because many creatures are multi-legged (quadrapeds with cmd bonuses vs. trips).
So lets examine the numbers.
For example, an adult red dragon (CR 14) that you can face at level 11 has a cmd 36 (43 vs. trips). So even with a 29 cmb trip, you need to roll 14+ to successfully trip it. The odds are against you.
Also bear in mind certain creatures cannot be tripped, such as flying creatures, serpentine creatures and oozes.
Thanks for those suggestions. There are so many interesting feats it's hard as a new player (me) to learn them all...I had not taken note of any of those. Dazzling Display in particular catches my interest.
Regarding performance combat, are there situations in PFS where that would actually come into play?
I realized in my previous feat list that I included Whip Proficiency, but I forgot that bards start proficient in it. So instead I could maybe do:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Weapon Focus: Whip (Prereq for Whip Mastery)
5: Whip Mastery (Doesn't do much good on its own because I'll have high Acrobatics)
7: Improved Whip Mastery (Allows me to threaten 5' with whip which might be useful for flanking? But that's basically 3 feats for +1 to CMB and potential flanking when I might want to use the whip to keep my distance anyway...)
9: Greater Trip
11: Discordant Voice
So feats 3/5/7 aren't very efficient at the moment...maybe I should invest in a couple ranged combat feats for fights where the enemy can't be tripped due to flight or no legs, or maybe even size in some settings?
J Nakagawa wrote: ..... Wow, awesome info!! You correctly predicted my revised build, haha - I was still typing my post when you posted yours.
Here's the biggest thing you said that I need to clarify - I thought that by taking Greater Trip that my allies that were threatening the enemy could ALSO take an AoO if the trip succeeds. Is that not correct? That was one of the primary ways I was planning on increasing my allies' number of attacks.
Also I didn't realize Imp Whip Mastery would allow me threaten 5 AND 10 feet away...I can see how that's good. I thought "natural reach + 5'" just meant the adjacent squares.
But if I made my feats:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Weapon Focus
5: Whip Mastery
7: Combat Reflexes
9: Imp. Whip Mastery
11: Greater Trip
I'm either pushing Greater Trip back to 11 so I barely get any use out of it, or I could push Imp Whip Mastery back further to where I'm not really getting the use out of Combat Reflexes until level 11 either...is that really worth it?
THANK YOU for the equipment advice - I had no idea where to start with that.
A whip build is one of those builds I call a "late bloomer" build so it takes patience. The early feats are considered as "feat taxes" to build up to improved whip mastery and greater trip.
Before level 7, you will be mostly limited to support - inspire courage, spell control/support, skills (diplomacy, knowledge), countersongs. You still will be useful to the party in that respect. In my case, I have to wait until level 10 to use my whip to grapple, but I can still grapple efficiently without it.
It really depends on your combat strat. Many bards I know use shortbows and fight from a safe distance. But to be efficient, either go all range or don't. Like any pathfinder build, you can either do everything and be good at nothing or be really good at something, but useless in some encounters.
From my experience, combat reflexes is used quite a bit, especially if you have a reach weapon. Reach + combat reflexes synergizes well. One of the biggest reasons is a common situation that comes up.
1. You lose initiative, enemy's goes first.
2. Enemy's move up to your party to attack, but your combat reflexes allow you to take AoO as they enter your threat ranges.
3. You trip them, saving your tank from eating the damage. If they stand, they provoke from front line.
You can still do the build without it, but most whip users take combat reflexes for that reason.
As for the question on greater trip, the feat allows you to follow up with an AoO once you successful trip the target. IF the target chooses to stand, it provokes another AoO from you and allies that threaten. If not, enemy is debuffed at -4 attack rolls, allies have +4 to strike prone.
We have a bard that uses the whip to great effect.
I'm a relative noob that sort of dismissed the bard class in general, but ours has been great to have around. Last session he used grease (I didn't know they could!).
But part of my concern is this is for Society. I think Greater Trip is where the full benefit of the build will really start to manifest so I would probably take that at level 9. If I take Combat Reflexes at 7, then I'm taking Imp Whip Mastery at 11 which is basically just in time to retire. If I manage to find a retirement campaign, I just feel like Discordant Voice is going to see more benefit than having some extra AoOs to trip with. It would basically just be a feat for 3 modules of play, so I can either hope for some encounters where we get jumped and I can get some extra trips, or I can give an additional damage boost in every encounter. (On the other hand, the damage boost really isn't THAT big I suppose.)
But really, the reason I'm writing this is not because I'm trying to prove a point but rather because I'm very inexperienced (my only tabletop RPG experience ever is the 3 modules of PFS I have played) so I'm wondering if my logic is actually reasonable and we just have different preferences for the build, or if there are things I'm not considering that I should be (which this thread has already proven there are, haha.)
Thanks for all the tips so far.
Edit: Sorry - I'm typing really slow today I guess so my posts keep coming up after other replies and seeming out of context...hopefully it's clear what I'm replying to.
wo imp whip mastery you do not threaten w a whip
also maybe consider 2 levels of lore warden
Sorry for double post.
The way I'm envisioning Greater Trip is that I can try to trip the enemy that the melee-ers are already engaging, and if I successfully trip, then my allies can take an AoO each due to Greater Trip. That sounds really useful to me, but maybe I'm overestimating that.
I do see the value in Combat Reflexes (my current PFS character is actually a reach cleric who uses it). Would it be really bad to take it at level 11 then and prioritize Greater Trip at 9? My original intent of the build was to maximize the amount of AoOs my allies get to take.
As a silly aside in case anyone is interested - the concept started because of the new Nintendo 3DS game Etrian Odyssey IV. The "Dancer" class in that game has skills that allow allies to make extra attacks in a turn and I thought that was a neat concept, haha. Ok, tangent over.
Consider the other line of whip feats.
lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Serpent Lash
lvl 3: something else
lvl 5: something else
lvl 7 greater serpent lash.
Imp Whip Mastery has to be a priority before combat reflexes or else you do not threaten.
The reason why I put greater trip on last priority is because you only get an extra +2 cmb and aoo after you trip. Your allies don't get that extra aoo. The only aoo they get is when the opponent stands. If not, if all you are planning to do is setting up your allies for a +4 prone buff and standard standing up aoo, an improved trip can accomplish that minus 2 cmb.
Taking fighter levels (lore warden) will resolve most of the issue (which is what I did). You get combat expertise as a bonus feat that will free up a feat slot. And you can get improved whip mastery sooner.
Of course, the drawbacks are:
- You lose your bard's level 4 spells
- +1 competence buff to your inspire courage
- skill points.
A huge problem in PFS is just as your character is being rounded out, you are close to retirement.
J Nakagawa is spot on with that advice. Big agree on combat reflexes too.
Look at your current build, you need to wait until about level 5 or 7 before you get some decent use for this build - that's a long time from level 1.
Also, when you get to those higher levels, you're likely to find more bad guys that can fly, making tripping even less effective.
On the plus side, whippers make great support characters - aid another to hit AC 10 to give someone in your party a +2 to their AC or attacks, and do it often.
As it has been said, lsten to J Nakagawa, his advice is sound. It kind of goes like this: Combat Reflexes is what makes reach weapons builds good. Reach weapons are what makes trip builds good. So combat reflexes+reach weapons+improved trip = win.
There really are no good reasons to make a trip build without reach and CR, not unless you are a monk.
So dip one lvl of fighter at 5th lvl to grab that extra feat. The trade off from that 12th bard lvl is well worth it imo. Also a higher DX is necessary to make good use of Combat Reflex so I would drop str to 16 and go up on DEX to 14.
Also keep in mind that even though you are trying to buff your party with that AoO, it may be a wasted effort.
1. Tripping won't do anything for range DPS, such as an archer (unless he has snap shot/improved snap). In fact, the -4 range penalty vs. prone will hurt him/her or any caster attempting to use ranged touch attacks.
2. Chances are you won't have more than 2 melee PCs in your party that can take advantage of a prone/standing target.
Also as stated earlier with the dragon example, there are many reasons why I no longer make control characters that rely on trip.
A second lvl of fighter would also give you an extra feat, like power attack. You can use a whip as a two hand weapon for that nice extra dmg against enemies that cant be triped... like a dragon. While he would never be a major dpser he wount be a wet noodle either. But this extra multiclass lvl would cost the final character a lot of his support capabilities. Up to you to decide.
Ok, here's another draft then.
First a question - if I take Weapon Finesse will that allow me to add Dex instead of Str to my CMB? Hopefully yes because otherwise that's stretching my MAD-ness even further. If yes, I would flip Str to 12 and Dex to 17. Maybe even make Str 10 and Con 14, I guess.
Bard 1: Have to start with Bard to get free Whip proficiency, then I'll take Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus Whip
Bard 1/Lore Warden 1:Combat Reflexes (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Bard 1/Lore Warden 2:Combat Expertise (free), Imp Trip (lvl 3 feat), Whip Mastery (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Bard 3/Lore Warden 2: Imp Whip Mastery
Bard 5/Lore Warden 2: Freed up a slot so I'm not sure...
Bard 7/Lore Warden 2: Greater Trip
Bard 9/Lore Warden 2: Now there's room for Discordant Voice! :)
Especially if Weapon Finesse can change CMB, then I definitely see how sacrificing 2 levels of Bard is a worthwhile trade for this.
I'm still confused about Greater Trip because the way I read it:
"Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."
If it provokes attacks of opportunity I would think it would be from anyone threatening and not just me (if I have Imp Whip Mastery).
However, I hadn't considered that knocking the enemies prone is screwing over my archers and certain spells. Does that make tripping a detriment in most cases then? That's almost enough to make me scrap the build idea entirely.
If you go lore warden you dont need that INT 13 anymore to qualify for Combat Expertise so you can leave that stat at 10.
Sage Maduin wrote: I'm still confused about Greater Trip because the way I read it:
"Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."
If it provokes attacks of opportunity I would think it would be from anyone threatening and not just me (if I have Imp Whip Mastery).
And you would be right, and Nakagawa is wrong. People tripped by Greater Trip provokes from everybody.
Sage Maduin wrote:
However, I hadn't considered that knocking the enemies prone is screwing over my archers and certain spells. Does that make tripping a detriment in most cases then? That's almost enough to make me scrap the build idea entirely.
Nah. "Would you like an entire free turn to shoot at this enemy, although maybe at -4?".
That's better.
If you drop your INT to 10, I recommend boosting CON especially in PFS. That will help your low base fort saves as a bard.
With a high DEX and Weapon Finesse, you can now use Serpent Lash in a free slot or whatever you choose.
I got the greater trip effect mixed up with vicious stomp. As written, it does provoke aoos from anyone that threatens. But since the AoO is resolved before, you don't get the +4 prone bonus. If the opponent stands, then that's entirely different.
Tripping is a double edge sword. I've seen archers cursing because not only do they have to fire through cover, they now have to take a -4 to hit prone targets. (These were low level archers L4-5 range where their attack rolls haven't come to fruition yet). At the same time, I've seen tripping saving a PC from death at a 7-11 table.
Also, ranged attackers don't get aoo unless they have snap shot feat, which at the earliest, can be taken at +6 BAB. Without it, while wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
It really depends who is in your party, and in PFS, your group composition will vary from table to table (unless you party up with a regular crew).
I guess I'll just have to be smart about it and learn as I go. Tripping enemies that haven't fully approached us or maybe if two enemies are in melee just trip the one that isn't being focused on yet to get some AoOs on it. Is there any way to FORCE an enemy to stand up? If enemies all decide to just stay down when they got knocked down my build is shot. I guess with 2 melee dudes in their face though they probably wouldn't choose to stay down with the melee penalty even if they are also being shot at by archers.
Here's my latest draft:
Bard 1: Agile Maneuver (Actually does what I thought Weapon Finesse might) and Weapon Focus Whip
Bard 1/Lore Warden 1:Combat Reflexes (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Bard 1/Lore Warden 2:Combat Expertise (free), Imp Trip (lvl 3 feat), Whip Mastery (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Bard 3/Lore Warden 2: Open...
Bard 5/Lore Warden 2: Imp Whip Mastery (had it placed before +5 BAB before)
Bard 7/Lore Warden 2: Greater Trip
Bard 9/Lore Warden 2: Discordant Voice
Stats:
STR: 11
DEX: 17 (Bump to 18 at level 4)
CON: 14 (Bump to 15 at 12 I guess...might depend on equipment by then)
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 15 (Bump to 16 at level 8 I guess?)
I think Serpent Lash sounds very cool but I just don't think I can fit it in. The level 5 feat will hopefully be something with a lot of bang for my buck...I think it probably needs to be something to help whatever I will do when tripping is not an option. Maybe it needs to be weapon finesse so I can pull out a melee weapon other than the whip if necessary? I'm sort of thinking a spell casting related feat might be more practical though. Or maybe lingering performance, I guess, although I like a lot of the finale spells.
Edit: Any thoughts on taking Flagbearer as the level 5 feat for times I can't trip? I'm still looking around for something potent related to spell casting but this caught my eye.
The stat allocation looks good.
I agree that whatever you put in your level 5 slot, should be something you will use frequently. It's entirely up to you and is the opportunity to be different from a typical flavor of the month whip bard.
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