Encounterlevel / CR seems too high in comparison to Core Rule advice


Rise of the Runelords


Forgive me if the question is stupid or if I'm overlooking something, but I have only very recently started with Pathfinder and I'm preparing to run Burnt Offerings with a group.
We have 3-4 player characters at level 1 (starting out).
So their APL is "1".

One of the first encounters pits the party against 4 goblins and a warchanter (lvl1 gobin bard).
A single goblin has a CR of 1/3 (135 xp each) and the goblin "bard" should have a CR of 1/2 (200 xp) ... correct?
Adding that up, I get 640 xp worth ... which would make the encounter something like a CR 2.5. Adding the CRs (four 1/3 and one 1/2 gets - if I understood the rules for the progress of CRs correctly - also add up to a total CR of 2 or 2.5).

For a party with APL 1, a CR 2 encounter is challenging, a 2.5 even more so ... but ok, so far, so good (not good if we are down to 3 players, then I probably have to drop at least one goblin?)

Now ... the goblin commando (lvl 1 ranger), his dog and four more normal goblins: CR 1/2 + CR 1 + 4 CR 1/3 ... to me, that is a total CR of 3 or even 3.5 ... a hard to epic fight (summing up the xp that encounter earns also leaves the impression of an encounter between CR 3 and 4). Even more if we only have 3 players - would dropping two goblins be ok?

The adventures themselves list the warchanter and the commando with CR1 ... which would increase the total CR of the encounters further ...

Are those fights not a bit tough for the first fights of a group starting out on adventure?

Mind you, I lack experience, so I cannot say whether the Core Rules are a bit pessimistic or not ...


Hey there,

CRs aren't additive. For example, two CR 3 creatures isn't a CR 6 encounter. Normally when you have differing CRs you kind of just "go up a level". For example, the goblins and warchanter would most likely be a CR 1.5 taken together. The other thing to keep in mind is that if you're running a group of 4 PCs, you're also on the low end of player power, as most encounters are for a group of 4-6, so something that's pretty easy for a group of 5 gets a bit harder for a group of 4.


But CR is measured assuming a party of 4 or 5. The encounter creation guidelines state it pretty explicitly.

The trouble is that most of the time, A CR=APL equivalent encounter is pretty close to a nuisance encounter: no real threat, no real excitement.

PF characters tend to be pretty tough. They can handle the fights. If they can't, you mod on the fly.


Thanks for the answers. I didn't know about CRs not being additive so that would explain quite a bit. I did know about the assumption that a party is 4 or 5 players - that's why I based my calculations on 4 players and an APL of 1 ... of course, there IS a difference between 4 players fighting 5 goblins and 5 players fighting the same number ...

I hope that a group of 4 is enough, at least one player is a druid with an animal companion ... though thinking of it, the animal companion might not be usable in a large part of the adventure (it being a hawk).


Yes. CR determination Is art, not science, but three CR 1/3 encounters would be about a CR 1, and and a CR 1 plus a CR 1/2 would be maybe a CR 2.

And look at the damage they deliver. Not nearly as much in one shot as, say, an Orc with a greataxe, who has a very good chance of taking out even a level 1 fighter in one blow and will almost certainly kill a PC if he crits.

Also note that these are goblins, not tactical murder machines. If you feel the PCs are losing, just have thm run crazy or something and go try to kill a random civilian. Also they are unlikely to try and finish off downed PCs. There are too many crazy things to do.

The idea is to get the PCs introduced to the craziness that is goblins, not kill them. If things go really bad for the PCs, have Sheriff Hemlock or AldernFoxglove or some random civilian with a big stick show up to help them.


Thanks tonyz. I guess I was also asking because I wanted to be sure I at least partially understood CR ... as I said: I'm new to the game.


The other thing to remember is that a CR 1 encounter is not an even match for four level 1 players -- it's supposed to be a fairly easy win for them. So if you want it to be difficult and risky, you have to bump the CR up a bit.

If you want to make an encounter tougher, it's usually better to add more monsters (as long as they're effective) rather than to make the individual monsters nastier.

It gets easier as you go along.


Druids (and others with ACs) can change their companions any time (barring house rules or archetypes). So when he's ready, he can gain Pounces McKitty.


Reiterating that playing the goblins as crazy as they're supposed to be helps make these encounters both easy and memorable.

I let my kids play the goblins. They spent more time lighting each other on fire, trying to destroy the scenery, and running away from the earthbreaker-wielding barbarian who was one-shotting them to be any real threat to the PCs. It was hilarious.


Thanks for the answers. I can see why the goblins can be played as not presenting a REAL BIG danger ;)

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