paizo.com Recent Posts in Caster vs Martial Balancepaizo.com Recent Posts in Caster vs Martial Balance2013-04-17T01:21:44Z2013-04-17T01:21:44ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceNinja in the Ryehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#412013-04-19T16:21:35Z2013-04-19T16:21:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">witch's knight wrote:</div><blockquote>Alright, so with E6 as a consideration, what other things could be done? How would you (everyone) suggest handling magic items in a low-magic game?</blockquote><p>If you're looking for an alternative to basic +1/+2 bonus magic items you can look at Kolokotroni's <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m6kx&page=3?My-solution-to-the-Christmas-Tree-Effect#145" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Heroic Distinctions</a> as a starting point.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">kenmckinny wrote:</div><blockquote>And, there isn't a central 'luck' mechanic in pathfinder. If there was, I would give high level martial types luck in spades. I'd make it a high level class feature of both fighter and rogue types. Essentially, at high levels luck , wit, and treachery defeat planning and magic.... sometimes.</blockquote><p>There are hero points, which are fairly close to a luck mechanic, you could give them X per day hero points or X per level.
<p>I played in a few 3.5 games using the <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Action Points</a> alternate rule which gave you 5 + 1/2 your level Action Points every time you leveled up.</p>
<p>This applied to all classes, but most of that group's idea of an optimized wizard was using 4th level spell slots to prepare extra Fireballs and Lightning Bolts, so it was needed for all the classes. It certainly helped everyone feel more heroic and could help keep the Fighter from being Dominated.</p>witch's knight wrote:Alright, so with E6 as a consideration, what other things could be done? How would you (everyone) suggest handling magic items in a low-magic game?
If you're looking for an alternative to basic +1/+2 bonus magic items you can look at Kolokotroni's Heroic Distinctions as a starting point. kenmckinny wrote:And, there isn't a central 'luck' mechanic in pathfinder. If there was, I would give high level martial types luck in spades. I'd make it a high level class feature of...Ninja in the Rye2013-04-19T16:21:35ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalancePhelanArcetushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#402013-04-19T16:10:17Z2013-04-19T16:10:17Z<p>This is more a new system thing, which I originally took from when I was working on rewriting Tome of Battle:</p>
<p>Give a secondary mental stat to each martial class.
<br />
Tome of Battle essentially already had this; Crusaders had class features based off of Charisma, Swordsages off of Wisdom, and Warblades off of Intelligence.</p>
<p>So in this sense you would modify existing class features (or add new ones on top) to utilize a mental stat the class otherwise cares little or nothing for (paladins are pretty well there already), and probably add a couple more class skills that use that stat. (Possibly also add more skill points to help them access that skill.)</p>
<p>Speaking of skills, one of the caster/martial disparities tends to be the caster's ability to handle non-combat encounters through magic, in a way that the martials can't... often in ways at least as good as a skill-based character can't at all. So having more skill ranks available (for the 2+Int, non-Int characters), and making sure that skills are adequate to the tasks in the adventure will help a lot. This would be a mix of how you build the adventures, and of expanding the scope of what skills can do.</p>
<p>In other words, you want to make it so that the party's attitude to a situation is "use skills", not "use spells". Pick the lock, don't cast <i>knock</i>; climb the tower wall instead of casting <i>fly</i> on everyone, and so on. Removing some of the spells that allow a caster to bypass traditionally skill-based challenges may help here.</p>This is more a new system thing, which I originally took from when I was working on rewriting Tome of Battle:
Give a secondary mental stat to each martial class.
Tome of Battle essentially already had this; Crusaders had class features based off of Charisma, Swordsages off of Wisdom, and Warblades off of Intelligence.
So in this sense you would modify existing class features (or add new ones on top) to utilize a mental stat the class otherwise cares little or nothing for (paladins are...PhelanArcetus2013-04-19T16:10:17ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceAtarlosthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#392013-04-19T14:30:21Z2013-04-19T14:30:21Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">kenmckinney wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Just some stream of consciousness thoughts...</p>
<p>In movies and myth, martial types succeed against evil wizards by skill, guile, luck, and tenacity.</p>
<p>But, Pathfinder's method of allocating stats doesn't make it easy to model this. Warriors have significant incentives to dump INT, WIS, and CHA in favor of physical stats. So the clever hero disrupting the evil wizard's plan by thinking outside the box? Doesn't really fit.</blockquote><p>A split point buy might help. Instead of 15 point buy give 10pt for physical stats and 10pt for mental stats. You'll like the stat distributions more. It's best for hybrids, but anything that encourages mental stats on martials is going to be best for hybrids.kenmckinney wrote:Just some stream of consciousness thoughts...
In movies and myth, martial types succeed against evil wizards by skill, guile, luck, and tenacity.
But, Pathfinder's method of allocating stats doesn't make it easy to model this. Warriors have significant incentives to dump INT, WIS, and CHA in favor of physical stats. So the clever hero disrupting the evil wizard's plan by thinking outside the box? Doesn't really fit.
A split point buy might help. Instead of 15 point buy...Atarlost2013-04-19T14:30:21ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalancePhelanArcetushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#382013-04-19T13:36:27Z2013-04-19T13:36:27Z<p>In a low magic game, magical equipment should be pretty rare.</p>
<p>One step towards doing this could be to reflavor simple enhancement bonuses into higher quality materials & craftsmanship - this allows you to not worry about adjusting some numbers; when the fighter needs a +3 sword, that's just a sword made of a particular flavor of unobtanium. That works decently for weapons, armor, and shields; perhaps for resistance items. It doesn't really work for stat boosting items, though. Still, it's a way to address some of them via flavor rather than eliminating them.
<br />
(A flaming sword would still be magical... but only the flaming aspect would be magical.)</p>
<p>Or you could just leave out all the big six, and adjust encounters as necessary. A low magic game will likely have a lot more encounters with humanoids anyway, which means more encounters with enemies who function like the PCs... those are easier to rebuild (remove items), but on the flip side, they have to be built from scratch normally.</p>In a low magic game, magical equipment should be pretty rare.
One step towards doing this could be to reflavor simple enhancement bonuses into higher quality materials & craftsmanship - this allows you to not worry about adjusting some numbers; when the fighter needs a +3 sword, that's just a sword made of a particular flavor of unobtanium. That works decently for weapons, armor, and shields; perhaps for resistance items. It doesn't really work for stat boosting items, though. Still, it's a...PhelanArcetus2013-04-19T13:36:27ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial Balancemplindustrieshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#372013-04-19T11:08:38Z2013-04-19T11:08:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">kenmckinney wrote:</div><blockquote>In movies and myth, martial types succeed against evil wizards by skill, guile, luck, and tenacity. </blockquote><p>In other media, martials beat evil wizards by just being awesome. The evil sorcerer tries to control Conan's mind and he just shakes it off and decks the guy in pajamas.
<p>This was actually reflected in AD&D pretty well. Fighters had the best saves and they leveled faster than wizards, too, so it was an even more pronounced difference.</p>
<p>I'd suggest that while a more fun solution might involve new mechanics for fighting through spells and all, the quick and easy way might be to give martials a save/touch AC bonus against spells across the board, and spell resistance as an (Ex) ability. Like superstition for free for everyone who can't cast.</p>kenmckinney wrote:In movies and myth, martial types succeed against evil wizards by skill, guile, luck, and tenacity.
In other media, martials beat evil wizards by just being awesome. The evil sorcerer tries to control Conan's mind and he just shakes it off and decks the guy in pajamas. This was actually reflected in AD&D pretty well. Fighters had the best saves and they leveled faster than wizards, too, so it was an even more pronounced difference.
I'd suggest that while a more fun...mplindustries2013-04-19T11:08:38ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial Balance+5 Toaster (alias of toastwolf)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#362013-04-19T06:32:47Z2013-04-19T06:32:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">kenmckinney wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Just some stream of consciousness thoughts...</p>
<p>In movies and myth, martial types succeed against evil wizards by skill, guile, luck, and tenacity.</p>
<p>But, Pathfinder's method of allocating stats doesn't make it easy to model this. Warriors have significant incentives to dump INT, WIS, and CHA in favor of physical stats. So the clever hero disrupting the evil wizard's plan by thinking outside the box? Doesn't really fit.</p>
<p>And, there isn't a central 'luck' mechanic in pathfinder. If there was, I would give high level martial types luck in spades. I'd make it a high level class feature of both fighter and rogue types. Essentially, at high levels luck , wit, and treachery defeat planning and magic.... sometimes.</p>
<p>And martial types should be really skillful...essentially I'd kill the rogue and give the fighter all his stuff , at high levels. Probably in Pathfinder high level fighters get extra skill points, and high level rogues get more resiliant, and a 20th level rogue and a 20th level fighter ought to be able to do the same things.</p>
<p>ken</p>
<p></blockquote><p>i like this ideakenmckinney wrote:Just some stream of consciousness thoughts...
In movies and myth, martial types succeed against evil wizards by skill, guile, luck, and tenacity.
But, Pathfinder's method of allocating stats doesn't make it easy to model this. Warriors have significant incentives to dump INT, WIS, and CHA in favor of physical stats. So the clever hero disrupting the evil wizard's plan by thinking outside the box? Doesn't really fit.
And, there isn't a central 'luck' mechanic in...+5 Toaster (alias of toastwolf)2013-04-19T06:32:47ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial Balancekenmckinneyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#352013-04-18T22:29:12Z2013-04-18T22:29:12Z<p>Just some stream of consciousness thoughts...</p>
<p>In movies and myth, martial types succeed against evil wizards by skill, guile, luck, and tenacity.</p>
<p>But, Pathfinder's method of allocating stats doesn't make it easy to model this. Warriors have significant incentives to dump INT, WIS, and CHA in favor of physical stats. So the clever hero disrupting the evil wizard's plan by thinking outside the box? Doesn't really fit.</p>
<p>And, there isn't a central 'luck' mechanic in pathfinder. If there was, I would give high level martial types luck in spades. I'd make it a high level class feature of both fighter and rogue types. Essentially, at high levels luck , wit, and treachery defeat planning and magic.... sometimes.</p>
<p>And martial types should be really skillful...essentially I'd kill the rogue and give the fighter all his stuff , at high levels. Probably in Pathfinder high level fighters get extra skill points, and high level rogues get more resiliant, and a 20th level rogue and a 20th level fighter ought to be able to do the same things.</p>
<p>ken</p>Just some stream of consciousness thoughts...
In movies and myth, martial types succeed against evil wizards by skill, guile, luck, and tenacity.
But, Pathfinder's method of allocating stats doesn't make it easy to model this. Warriors have significant incentives to dump INT, WIS, and CHA in favor of physical stats. So the clever hero disrupting the evil wizard's plan by thinking outside the box? Doesn't really fit.
And, there isn't a central 'luck' mechanic in pathfinder. If there was, I...kenmckinney2013-04-18T22:29:12ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceWitch's Knighthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#342013-04-18T21:24:46Z2013-04-18T21:24:46Z<p>Alright, so with E6 as a consideration, what <b>other</b> things could be done? How would you (everyone) suggest handling magic items in a low-magic game? How would you alter Wealth Per Level? What spells would you allow, or disallow?</p>
<p>What about on the other end? Thoughts on the "Vital Strike as a standard mechanic"? I have to say the idea of swapping out bonus feats (and possibly rogue talents/rage powers) semi-on the fly is a really interesting idea.</p>
<p>Any other thoughts outside the box?</p>Alright, so with E6 as a consideration, what other things could be done? How would you (everyone) suggest handling magic items in a low-magic game? How would you alter Wealth Per Level? What spells would you allow, or disallow?
What about on the other end? Thoughts on the "Vital Strike as a standard mechanic"? I have to say the idea of swapping out bonus feats (and possibly rogue talents/rage powers) semi-on the fly is a really interesting idea.
Any other thoughts outside the box?Witch's Knight2013-04-18T21:24:46ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial Balancemplindustrieshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#332013-04-18T02:35:03Z2013-04-18T02:35:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Witch's Knight wrote:</div><blockquote>I've looked over E6, and I like it a lot. What I'm looking for, though, are ways to convert things like Adventure Paths into low magic. If there's a guide somewhere for converting high-level NPC's/high-CR monsters into E6, I'd love to take a look at it. </blockquote><p>I do it all the time. I'm running E6 Serpent's Skull right now. But I didn't find a special guide or anything—I just convert it myself, which also lets me edit the silly stuff I hate at the same time.
<p>I don't find it difficult—it's quite fun for me, honestly. But there're no short cuts other than, "know the rules really damn well."</p>Witch's Knight wrote:I've looked over E6, and I like it a lot. What I'm looking for, though, are ways to convert things like Adventure Paths into low magic. If there's a guide somewhere for converting high-level NPC's/high-CR monsters into E6, I'd love to take a look at it.
I do it all the time. I'm running E6 Serpent's Skull right now. But I didn't find a special guide or anything--I just convert it myself, which also lets me edit the silly stuff I hate at the same time. I don't find it...mplindustries2013-04-18T02:35:03ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceWitch's Knighthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#322013-04-18T01:47:09Z2013-04-18T01:47:09Z<p>Mobility is one of the things I've been thinking about, and one of the options I've been tossing around has to do with Vital Strike. Vital Strike seemed like a cool idea at first, but then I realized that it stacked with exactly nothing. Which is weird to me. Allowing Vital Strike on a charge is not the same as pouncing, not by a long shot. Vital Strike with Spring Attack is not the same as being able to full-attack with Spring Attack, but it <b>would</b> keep Spring Attack viable. So I'd considered making the Vital Strike chain part of the normal combat system, where if the character is only making a single attack they can multiply their weapon damage as if using Vital Strike. I'm sure someone could find a way to make that unbalancing, but people don't want iteratives for the multiplied weapon damage. They want them for the multiplied +30 plus 1d6 fire plus etc. <b>after</b> the weapon damage. Thoughts on this?</p>
<p>I've looked over E6, and I like it a lot. What I'm looking for, though, are ways to convert things like Adventure Paths into low magic. If there's a guide somewhere for converting high-level NPC's/high-CR monsters into E6, I'd love to take a look at it.</p>Mobility is one of the things I've been thinking about, and one of the options I've been tossing around has to do with Vital Strike. Vital Strike seemed like a cool idea at first, but then I realized that it stacked with exactly nothing. Which is weird to me. Allowing Vital Strike on a charge is not the same as pouncing, not by a long shot. Vital Strike with Spring Attack is not the same as being able to full-attack with Spring Attack, but it would keep Spring Attack viable. So I'd considered...Witch's Knight2013-04-18T01:47:09ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceLemmyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#312013-04-17T23:38:49Z2013-04-17T23:38:49Z<p>IMHO opinion, the only real way to make casters balanced is revising their spell lists.</p>
<p>It's not the DC or damage of the spells that is the problem, it's the fact that they can do <b>everything</b>. With enough spells, a character has pretty much every option she can think of.</p>
<p>Wizards can easily add dozens of spells to their spell books. Clerics/Druids don't even have to bother.</p>
<p>Limiting spells known and/or removing/nerfing overpowered spells is the only real way to lower the power of full casters. Unfortunately, that's <b>a lot</b> of work.</p>
<p>The reason Wizards are often considered to be the most powerful class is because they have both the most versatile spell list (spells can do everything) and too many spells known ("limitless" spell list).</p>
<p>Now, there are a few ways to buff martials... IMO, the most important changes are:</p>
<p><b>Reducing/Removing feat chains</b>: Makes things like TWF and Vital Strike a single scaling feat based on BAB. Oh, and remove dumb prerequisites (Why do character need Int 13 to be half-decent at tripping/feinting? Combat Expertise is a terrible feat that is only a prerequisite because of its (rather misleading) name.)</p>
<p><b>Increase Mobility</b>: You walked 10ft. Now you suck. Yaaaaaay...
<br />
Really, allow martials to move and still be relevant. Doesn't need to be a whole full attack, but it shouldn't be much worse either.</p>IMHO opinion, the only real way to make casters balanced is revising their spell lists.
It's not the DC or damage of the spells that is the problem, it's the fact that they can do everything. With enough spells, a character has pretty much every option she can think of.
Wizards can easily add dozens of spells to their spell books. Clerics/Druids don't even have to bother.
Limiting spells known and/or removing/nerfing overpowered spells is the only real way to lower the power of full...Lemmy2013-04-17T23:38:49ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceOsmos777https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#302013-04-17T23:48:24Z2013-04-17T23:21:56Z<p>+1 to the "if you wan tlow magic play E6" suggestion.
<br />
And if you wan to balance martials vs, casters at a higher level you could check out "Kirthfinder" house rules here on the message boards. I am reading them now and am very impressed with them.</p>+1 to the "if you wan tlow magic play E6" suggestion.
And if you wan to balance martials vs, casters at a higher level you could check out "Kirthfinder" house rules here on the message boards. I am reading them now and am very impressed with them.Osmos7772013-04-17T23:21:56ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial Balancekyrt-ryderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#292013-04-17T21:55:46Z2013-04-17T21:55:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ninja in the Rye wrote:</div><blockquote> I'll agree with something said above, if you want a low magic game playing E6 or E8 is your best bet. </blockquote><p>This. By level 8-10ish in a normal campaign, even the most mundane of the martials should be pretty damned magical. In an explicit low-magic campaign I can't really see that working.Ninja in the Rye wrote:I'll agree with something said above, if you want a low magic game playing E6 or E8 is your best bet.
This. By level 8-10ish in a normal campaign, even the most mundane of the martials should be pretty damned magical. In an explicit low-magic campaign I can't really see that working.kyrt-ryder2013-04-17T21:55:46ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceAtarlosthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#282013-04-17T21:20:21Z2013-04-17T21:20:21Z<p>Part of the issue is monsters. </p>
<p>1) If a monster is invulnerable to mundane damage remove it. Any fight where half the party is impotent is unfun for those players. </p>
<p>On the martial side the changes are simple. </p>
<p>1) Give noncasters better saves. I'd give Barbarians reflex, Rogues will, and Fighters, Cavaliers, and Samurai will. </p>
<p>2) Allow full attacks after movement, possibly at -2 or with iteratives at -6/-12/-18 instead of -5/10/15. </p>
<p>3) Condense melee feat chains, especially the maneuvers and style chains. </p>
<p>There's a range/melee gap that also needs addressing while I'm tinkering. </p>
<p>4) Ranged weapons except repeating crossbows iterate at -6/-12/-16.</p>
<p>5) Manyshot just gives another shot. It's confusing for new players and removing th the +10% damage from a crit chance isn't worth the complication. </p>
<p>On the caster side it's more complicated.</p>
<p>1) For every spell, ask yourself what you could do if you were the only one in the world who could cast it. If "Take over a third world country" is a plausible answer remove the spell or raise its level to at least 7th on a full caster list or 5th on a bard-like list. If "Take over a first world country" is a plausible answer it's a 9th level spell or 6th if it's on a bard-like list. If "Take over the world" is a plausible answer remove it entirely. </p>
<p>2) Determine which spells are critical to handling CR appropriate monster abilities. Put them on as many spell lists as plausible at the appropriate level (unless there's a valid substitute like the cleric's Air Walk in place of Fly or the druid's Reincarnation instead of Raise Dead). Currently you basically need two full casters to be able to handle all CR appropriate challenges. Arcane/Divine niche protection appears to make casters weaker, but it really just means every party needs two. A single caster trying to fill both roles will be spread thinner.</p>
<p>3) Remove SR from any evocation that would be subject to energy resistance. Unfun fights where some players stand around impotently apply to casters too. This change makes opposition school choice harder, while not actually buffing casters significantly except in the case that they're mostly useless.</p>Part of the issue is monsters.
1) If a monster is invulnerable to mundane damage remove it. Any fight where half the party is impotent is unfun for those players.
On the martial side the changes are simple.
1) Give noncasters better saves. I'd give Barbarians reflex, Rogues will, and Fighters, Cavaliers, and Samurai will.
2) Allow full attacks after movement, possibly at -2 or with iteratives at -6/-12/-18 instead of -5/10/15.
3) Condense melee feat chains, especially the maneuvers and...Atarlost2013-04-17T21:20:21ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceMrSinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#272013-04-17T19:53:50Z2013-04-17T19:53:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Artanthos wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">MrSin wrote:</div><blockquote>Same respond to Artanthos. The point isn't to make it not fun. Its to assist in balance. It also can alienate the player and make them feel almost untrusted depending on the DM. </blockquote>The key in any custom world setting is communication between player and DM. The player needs to know what to expect during character creation. As long as that understanding is there, player conflict should be minimal. </blockquote><p>I understand that, but I'm still against nerfing to make things better. I've said before in other threads that nerfing alienates players and feels like an attack, especially midgame.
<p>Putting what spells you get in the DMs hands also puts up a road where "Can I have this spell" can later become a problem, regardless of expectations. Your already taking away the majority of a prepared arcane casters additional spells in a low magic game, because its unlikely you'll find magical items and when you do sometimes burning them into your book isn't actually the best option.</p>Artanthos wrote:MrSin wrote:Same respond to Artanthos. The point isn't to make it not fun. Its to assist in balance. It also can alienate the player and make them feel almost untrusted depending on the DM.
The key in any custom world setting is communication between player and DM. The player needs to know what to expect during character creation. As long as that understanding is there, player conflict should be minimal. I understand that, but I'm still against nerfing to make things better....MrSin2013-04-17T19:53:50ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceArtanthos (alias of Michael Sumrall)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#262013-04-17T19:44:08Z2013-04-17T19:44:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">MrSin wrote:</div><blockquote>Same respond to Artanthos. The point isn't to make it not fun. Its to assist in balance. It also can alienate the player and make them feel almost untrusted depending on the DM. </blockquote><p>The key in any custom world setting is communication between player and DM. The player needs to know what to expect during character creation. As long as that understanding is there, player conflict should be minimal.MrSin wrote:Same respond to Artanthos. The point isn't to make it not fun. Its to assist in balance. It also can alienate the player and make them feel almost untrusted depending on the DM.
The key in any custom world setting is communication between player and DM. The player needs to know what to expect during character creation. As long as that understanding is there, player conflict should be minimal.Artanthos (alias of Michael Sumrall)2013-04-17T19:44:08ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceMrSinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#252013-04-17T19:35:45Z2013-04-17T19:35:45Z<p>To be honest I'd use another system. Pathfinder and 3.x aren't very good at this. If had to try and do it with Pathfinder. I'd probably go with giving the players bonuses without magical items similar to vow of poverty from BOED in order to help keep them up with the gear treadmill. I'd reduce it for casters who are bound to make up for it, but I wouldn't take away their spell casting at all. They'll still find artifacts and the like, and they might have ways to empower it through some sort of rare magitech from an archaic civilization. This way they have the occasional magic item, but in all honesty they are heroes who only grow stronger with the world around them instead of being dependent on getting that belt with +2 whatever. I think I'd try and make items rarer, to make them seem more powerful and give them special qualities beyond a +1/2 rather than making them more powerful from the start. They'll be more cherished if they're special and have RP value. Hopefully players as they grow strong with magic items won't feel reliant and they will feel like they are the heroes of the world.</p>
<p>E6, as people are saying is a good alternative probably, but I actually don't have any experience with it. Probably worth a peek. I myself am not that great at number crunching.</p>To be honest I'd use another system. Pathfinder and 3.x aren't very good at this. If had to try and do it with Pathfinder. I'd probably go with giving the players bonuses without magical items similar to vow of poverty from BOED in order to help keep them up with the gear treadmill. I'd reduce it for casters who are bound to make up for it, but I wouldn't take away their spell casting at all. They'll still find artifacts and the like, and they might have ways to empower it through some sort...MrSin2013-04-17T19:35:45ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceNinja in the Ryehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#242013-04-17T19:33:10Z2013-04-17T19:33:10Z<p>I'll agree with something said above, if you want a low magic game playing E6 or E8 is your best bet.</p>I'll agree with something said above, if you want a low magic game playing E6 or E8 is your best bet.Ninja in the Rye2013-04-17T19:33:10ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceWitch's Knighthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#232013-04-17T19:30:39Z2013-04-17T19:30:39Z<p>I actually think a few of these would be about right. For instance, the "low-magic" Karzoug, under Artanthos's suggestion, still gets a stupid amount of spells. He's still scary, he's still THE most powerful wizard alive in this age, but a player caster might have access to a single 9th-level spell. That's his nuke. I think it's an interesting and simple suggestion.</p>
<p><b>MrSin</b>, I appreciated your thoughts on boosting martials for high fantasy games. How would you handle a low-magic game, if you were to run one?</p>I actually think a few of these would be about right. For instance, the "low-magic" Karzoug, under Artanthos's suggestion, still gets a stupid amount of spells. He's still scary, he's still THE most powerful wizard alive in this age, but a player caster might have access to a single 9th-level spell. That's his nuke. I think it's an interesting and simple suggestion.
MrSin, I appreciated your thoughts on boosting martials for high fantasy games. How would you handle a low-magic game, if you...Witch's Knight2013-04-17T19:30:39ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceMrSinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#222013-04-17T19:17:29Z2013-04-17T19:17:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">master_marshmallow wrote:</div><blockquote><p>If that's what you want, then I say slow down spell progression to match a cross blooded sorcerer, that is, it takes them 2 extra levels until the next spell level becomes available. I would also make sure to keep track of spell components, and make sure casters know they need to do that. If spell casting is rare, the components shouldn't be purchased in one easy item for only 5 gp. It's not like every shop is going to have complete knowledge of what arcane components even are and have them all packed neatly in one package deal. Eschew materials becomes increasingly important in such a campaign, which, while being a nerf, also slows down the wizard fest progression and makes them wait 2 more levels before they can get all the crazy metamagic feats going.
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By level 7 they will only have 1 3rd level spell, plus bonus spells. I also would take cantrips away as a class ability, and make them keep track of them. </blockquote><p>Many of these ideas are actually really painful. If anything you make it not fun to play a caster unless you really like resource management and having to wait on power. Neither of these are fun nor balance. Taxing the casters more won't make them weaker, as they're sometimes funded by other players(pooled funds for example), and they're spells easily replicate magic items but not so much the other way around.
<p>Same respond to Artanthos. The point isn't to make it not fun. Its to assist in balance. It also can alienate the player and make them feel almost untrusted depending on the DM.</p>master_marshmallow wrote:If that's what you want, then I say slow down spell progression to match a cross blooded sorcerer, that is, it takes them 2 extra levels until the next spell level becomes available. I would also make sure to keep track of spell components, and make sure casters know they need to do that. If spell casting is rare, the components shouldn't be purchased in one easy item for only 5 gp. It's not like every shop is going to have complete knowledge of what arcane components...MrSin2013-04-17T19:17:29ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceArtanthos (alias of Michael Sumrall)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#212013-04-17T19:06:15Z2013-04-17T19:06:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Witch's Knight wrote:</div><blockquote>My problem isn't that casters can do things other than damage. My problem is that, currently, my options in a low-magic campaign are either to disallow casters or to inexplicably have a player playing a full-blown wizard in a world where people are in awe of +1 weapons. </blockquote><p>Severe restrictions on spell access, with no free spells for leveling.
<p>All new spells must be researched using obscure texts. Moldering tomes founds in the ruins of an ancient wizards tower, private libraries with owners that want something in return for access, etc.</p>
<p>All spell require DM approval and are subject to DM modification before being researched.</p>Witch's Knight wrote:My problem isn't that casters can do things other than damage. My problem is that, currently, my options in a low-magic campaign are either to disallow casters or to inexplicably have a player playing a full-blown wizard in a world where people are in awe of +1 weapons.
Severe restrictions on spell access, with no free spells for leveling. All new spells must be researched using obscure texts. Moldering tomes founds in the ruins of an ancient wizards tower, private...Artanthos (alias of Michael Sumrall)2013-04-17T19:06:15ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial Balancemaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#202013-04-17T19:04:43Z2013-04-17T19:04:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Witch's Knight wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Alright, I guess I need to say this again: I'm not trying to nerf casters in normal gameplay. I'm trying to nerf them for <span class=messageboard-bigger>low magic</span> games, and increase martial options for <span class=messageboard-bigger>high fantasy</span> (aka "normal") games.</p>
<p>My problem isn't that casters can do things other than damage. My problem is that, currently, my options in a low-magic campaign are either to disallow casters or to inexplicably have a player playing a full-blown wizard in a world where people are in awe of +1 weapons. </blockquote><p>If that's what you want, then I say slow down spell progression to match a cross blooded sorcerer, that is, it takes them 2 extra levels until the next spell level becomes available. I would also make sure to keep track of spell components, and make sure casters know they need to do that. If spell casting is rare, the components shouldn't be purchased in one easy item for only 5 gp. It's not like every shop is going to have complete knowledge of what arcane components even are and have them all packed neatly in one package deal. Eschew materials becomes increasingly important in such a campaign, which, while being a nerf, also slows down the wizard fest progression and makes them wait 2 more levels before they can get all the crazy metamagic feats going.
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By level 7 they will only have 1 3rd level spell, plus bonus spells. I also would take cantrips away as a class ability, and make them keep track of them.</p>Witch's Knight wrote:Alright, I guess I need to say this again: I'm not trying to nerf casters in normal gameplay. I'm trying to nerf them for low magic games, and increase martial options for high fantasy (aka "normal") games.
My problem isn't that casters can do things other than damage. My problem is that, currently, my options in a low-magic campaign are either to disallow casters or to inexplicably have a player playing a full-blown wizard in a world where people are in awe of +1
...master_marshmallow2013-04-17T19:04:43ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceWitch's Knighthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#192013-04-17T17:20:29Z2013-04-17T17:20:29Z<p>Alright, I guess I need to say this again: I'm not trying to nerf casters in normal gameplay. I'm trying to nerf them for <span class=messageboard-bigger>low magic</span> games, and increase martial options for <span class=messageboard-bigger>high fantasy</span> (aka "normal") games.</p>
<p>My problem isn't that casters can do things other than damage. My problem is that, currently, my options in a low-magic campaign are either to disallow casters or to inexplicably have a player playing a full-blown wizard in a world where people are in awe of +1 weapons.</p>Alright, I guess I need to say this again: I'm not trying to nerf casters in normal gameplay. I'm trying to nerf them for low magic games, and increase martial options for high fantasy (aka "normal") games.
My problem isn't that casters can do things other than damage. My problem is that, currently, my options in a low-magic campaign are either to disallow casters or to inexplicably have a player playing a full-blown wizard in a world where people are in awe of +1 weapons.Witch's Knight2013-04-17T17:20:29ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial Balancemaster_marshmallowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#182013-04-17T17:10:51Z2013-04-17T17:10:51Z<p>So, if your problem is that casters have spells that let them do things other than damage, ban the spells that you have issue with.
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Cutting their spells or abilities is just not right. Wizards are squishy, they<i> need </i>to be invisible with multiple images going on to not die. If your problem is with players playing smarter and knowing how to not die then there is not much help we can offer.
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Best way I've found to nerf them is by enforcing the rules on them, and raising taxes,.they have to pay for new spells just like martials have to pay for weapons per the roles.</p>So, if your problem is that casters have spells that let them do things other than damage, ban the spells that you have issue with.
Cutting their spells or abilities is just not right. Wizards are squishy, they need to be invisible with multiple images going on to not die. If your problem is with players playing smarter and knowing how to not die then there is not much help we can offer.
Best way I've found to nerf them is by enforcing the rules on them, and raising taxes,.they have to pay...master_marshmallow2013-04-17T17:10:51ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Caster vs Martial BalanceWitch's Knighthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pobm?Caster-vs-Martial-Balance#172013-04-17T17:05:09Z2013-04-17T17:05:09Z<p><b>MrSin</b> Well I feel silly for missing that 3 spells/round thing. And I agree, 10 rounds of casting only works from a narrative standpoint, it's not fun to play. I still don't think that 2 or 3 rounds would be too wretched for a 9th-level spell. I feel that the step-increases would make the caster feel the impact of their spells and abilities more. If Gate now takes 3 rounds to cost, the arrival of that extra-planar muscle is a big deal. If you pick up a greater quicken rod, that Gate takes one round less to finish, which is an even bigger deal. That's my logic, but you're absolutely right that unless the player can do something else during those turns then they'll just be bored out of their skulls. I like the concept, but I'll have to play with it.</p>
<p><b>MirageWolf</b> I've considered something like this before, specifically in the region of clerics. I recently had one of my players ask me, "Why does the cleric cast spells? Shouldn't he pray to his god and be grateful for whatever comes?" That can be answered by flavor, of course, but I've been quite tempted to actually do that. The cleric "prays", and I tell them that their deity granted them a boon of X.</p>
<p><b>Bill Dunn</b> I don't love all of your suggestions, but I do love a few of them.
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Your casting time suggestion gave me an idea to incorporate into my own casting time idea: What if spells had increased casting times, but specialists could cast their specialized skills faster? Evokers can pop off fireballs, but have to spend more time focusing on their defensive magic; Illusionists can toss around veils like nothing, but have to gather their energy for a blast spell; and everyone but focused Conjurers really have to work at summoning a creature from another plane.
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Restricting what spells can be turned into wands would solve a big issue I have with caster utility out-of-combat. Nice suggestion!</p>MrSin Well I feel silly for missing that 3 spells/round thing. And I agree, 10 rounds of casting only works from a narrative standpoint, it's not fun to play. I still don't think that 2 or 3 rounds would be too wretched for a 9th-level spell. I feel that the step-increases would make the caster feel the impact of their spells and abilities more. If Gate now takes 3 rounds to cost, the arrival of that extra-planar muscle is a big deal. If you pick up a greater quicken rod, that Gate takes one...Witch's Knight2013-04-17T17:05:09Z