Goblin Squad Member
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In another thread where the discussion of how banditry effects the economy, I got to thinking about how a player is intended to acquire in game currency? Yes there will be buying and selling in the market place and exchange of coin for contracts like bounties and hiring guards, but how does one acquire the coin in the first place? Day 1 of early access, everyone starts with 0 coin. I know PVE isn't supposed to give that much if any gear, only scraps and such, but is coin meant to be there too? Is that the primary way to gather coin? Once you have it, it gets given away as payment for various services and stolen by bandits. Do the beginning "quests" in NPC towns to get us introduced to the game give payouts in coin?
Main question (up for discussion in case the devs haven't considered this or want some fresh ideas) How does "new" coin make it's way into the hands of PCs?
One concern I have about having PVE provide coin as a primary means of reward and new coin introduction, that would make "dragon hordes" that much more valuable and make farming PVE elements a primary and possibly required part of the game. At the same time, I am not sure if quests are the way to go either?
An interesting idea, that I can see possibly being abused but wanted some input and thoughts on, how about we use a little bit of "real world" and let people mine copper/silver/gold/platinum and have a semi low level skill (maybe scaling with the ore) to forge it into coins. This would be similar to printing money is my thought. It would make those ore a bit more valuable, especially copper.
I bet the 3 NPC zones will be pretty much your basic NPC area w/everything you'd expect.
I thought there had already been a hint in game about currency production. Hmmm...maybe I dreamed that?
It would be cool if they could figure out a way to pull it off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was just curious because everyone is discussing how to trade/buy/sell ect their coin, but when the game first starts and not a person has two coins to rub together, how does it start? If you look to real life, people bartered and used gold/silver/ect as coins. Since TT uses these same metals, why can't we. I was thinking something like forging copper into coins is a lvl 1 skill, silver starts at like 50 (just throwing numbers out there) gold 100 and platinum at 150. That way copper is mainly used, till people get their skill up to forge better metals for more valuable coins. Also, as skill rises, you waste less when forging coins. 10 copper per chuck on ore at first, but the time your 100 or 200 you can get 15 or 20 coins per chuck. Something of that nature anyway.
I am just alittle concerned in the PVE farming to get cash might take away from the PVP aspect of the game. For example, if bandits figure out it is faster to farm PVE for coin, then why be bandits? I do agree that maybe throwing PVE stuff in there once in a while, like a dragon horde to make people fight over it or to gather a large group to make each share less, but I don't think that should be the primary means of gaining fresh coin.
Without in game currency the players would end up using some resource as currency such as steel ingots. The disadvantage of doing so of course is steel ingots have bulk.
I too am a bit puzzled by where currency comes from but I suspect it will be pve
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Goblin Squad Member
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This was touched on in the blog "Money Changes Everything", though it's rather old, so the ideas may have changed. It doesn't seem to be an exclusive list, so there may be other methods as well.
All the coin in the game enters via a faucet. Faucets are things like rewards from NPCs for completing various tasks, or payments made by NPCs when they buy things from player characters. New coin may also be found as loot when a monster is defeated, or it may be discovered as treasure while exploring.
Coin exits the game as well, via a drain. Drains include actions like paying an NPC vendor for something or paying a tax or a fee to an NPC or to some system service. Coin might be consumed by player characters in other interactions with the game world in ways yet to be determined.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect PvE to be a significant part of the game. Maybe this is a little different from other Open FFA PvP games you have played? I'm not sure there is a reason to be concerned about 'taking away from PvP;' the game is going to be PvE -and- PvP. I think PvE is going to be a bigger part of the game than it might seem by looking at the discussion and blog contents; PvP is just a hot topic and perhaps more difficult to get right.
You will be able to acquire some crafting components and items only from PvE dungeons and escalations. I suspect that adventuring vs. humanoid NPCs will indeed be the main faucet for coin.
I humbly suggest reading over some of my favorite blogs, Adventure in the River Kingdoms and Butchers, Bakers, and Candlestick Makers, which explain some of the interactions between PvE adventuring, PvP activities, and crafting. Also the next one, which is relatively short, Where the Wild Things Are, which gives a little more detail on the roll of PvE in this sandbox.
People will choose their role based on many factors. What is 'most lucrative' is only one of those factors, and may not be the most important factor for most (it isn't for me, at least... I like to PvP =P).
That aside, if PvE happens to be wildly more lucrative than anything else at some point, then all those that simply do the 'most lucrative' thing will start doing PvE... At which point dungeons will become scarcer, banditry will become easier (less competition, more potential engagements, better ability to choose targets, etc.), crafters will be in short supply and thus can charge higher prices, merchants' time will be valued higher and can charge higher prices, etc. And then the 'most lucrative' role will be something else for another short period. It balances out in the end.
From my lengthy experience here, I'd say the majority of players posting in these forums accept that PvP will be in the game but are not particularly interested in it.
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Minting is a really cool idea that I haven't ever seen in a game before. We've talked before about settlements being able to create and distribute their own currency, but minting a global currency that the game is built around is interesting. Thanks for bringing that up.
I wonder if it's just too much mess; adding another variable factor into the money supply will just make GW's control of the economy more difficult. Minting strikes me as a particularly variable faucet, also, as the rate of flow depends on several different PC actions undertaken by different roles of PC.
Any other ideas on the pros and cons of a global minting system?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I got to thinking about how a player is intended to acquire in game currency
Adventure in the River Kingdoms also goes into how Coin enters the system. The second graphic, titled Settlement Economic System, has a colored line for Coin that shows how it enters the system from the Market and from PvE & Battlefield Combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... let people mine copper/silver/gold/platinum and have a semi low level skill (maybe scaling with the ore) to forge it into coins.
That's a really interesting idea on the surface, but I think it would effectively put all the money in the hands of the first people to find these resources. If you made each resource node fairly small, then you would simply put all the money into the hands of the first organization that fielded an effective gathering force.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I got to thinking about how a player is intended to acquire in game currencyAdventure in the River Kingdoms also goes into how Coin enters the system. The second graphic, titled Settlement Economic System, has a colored line for Coin that shows how it enters the system from the Market and from PvE & Battlefield Combat.
Note that the only coin faucet shown there is PvE & Battlefield Combat; the other relationship is a reciprocal one between "PvE & Battlefield Combat" and "Processing, Crafting, Transport & Trading."
I think this was explained as PvE and PvP players give gold to crafters for gear, and crafters give gold to adventurers for the craftable dungeon rewards they have gathered.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a feeling that coin into the system will begin for EEers with NPC task/tutorial/quest style missions. Some giving coin and some leading to PVE drops that lead to coin. The "faucet" will be on quite strong for the EEers and slowly turned down as OE approaches.
Initial Land Grab and resources to fund/start settlements? Really, really fast EE "faucet"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This was touched on in the blog "Money Changes Everything", though it's rather old, so the ideas may have changed. It doesn't seem to be an exclusive list, so there may be other methods as well.
All the coin in the game enters via a faucet. Faucets are things like rewards from NPCs for completing various tasks, or payments made by NPCs when they buy things from player characters. New coin may also be found as loot when a monster is defeated, or it may be discovered as treasure while exploring.
Coin exits the game as well, via a drain. Drains include actions like paying an NPC vendor for something or paying a tax or a fee to an NPC or to some system service. Coin might be consumed by player characters in other interactions with the game world in ways yet to be determined.
Now that you point this out, I do remember reading it. I still like my idea of mining and forging it but I can see their "faucet" idea. Thanx
I would hope NPC purchases from players are extremely limited tbh. A market place where everything dropped is useful in some way and every seller and buyer are players is much better economy wise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like using real life examples because I enjoy some realism in games, especially RPG's, but look at the gold rush to cali. The people that got there first and mined lots of gold because filthy rich. What if GW did something similar in PFO where the EEers get in and find the mines, then start mining the various ore into currency and then can introduce it as OE and "the flood" (if it happens) happens. They have said over and over they want PC interaction more than just farming PVE content, so this give those in EE the chance to get large collections of currency, then when others join, we can have them perform "quests" for coin and that is how it is spread around. I would love to have an alt making money and then set him up like a quest NPC lol.
The idea of different mints based on settlements would be a really cool idea. I know I have had TT games where different regions and kingdoms had their own mint and each carried a different value and was only accepted in different areas. Now I am not sure GW wants to get into that much detail as recording every different settlement's currency could become a long list to manage. Also, having some sort of exchange could be another career path for people. Travelers come into town, stop by the exchange to change to the current settlement's currency (for a fee of course) and then used that to buy and sell in those markets. If part of the loot in PVP was some or all their coins (maybe have banks to store so your not walking around with 100's or 1000's of coins) then the different currencies would get spread around.
Like I said, doubtful it will get introduced but it a really fun idea. I petition GW to really consider doing this if it is possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope NPC purchases from players are extremely limited tbh. A market place where everything dropped is useful in some way and every seller and buyer are players is much better economy wise.
While I agree, what about "upgrading" gear? If you can't find anyone to "buy" your crappy quality 1 sword, why not have an NPC there to "vender" to? Again, I agree and support the idea of 99% PC-PC interaction and sales, but there should be that occasion when you just want to pawn something instead of dropping it.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Coin enters the economy primarily from PvE sources: creature loot and NPC rewards.
We have discussed the possibility of turning precious metals into coin via a mint, but we need to get a better idea of how that would affect the economy before saying for sure. If we did that, it would mean creating general coin; it'd be really confusing to try to treat it as regional currency that might be debased.
The answer is simple Milo. The sword still has salvage value. you either salvage it yourself and sell the components or re use the components yourself.
This is exactly what people do in Eve if they find they can't sell something and wish to be rid of it
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Goblin Squad Member
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NPCs who purchase things effectively set a floor price on those items. Players will not sell them for less than that price unless they are deliberately selling at a loss to try to undercut someone. It provides a promise of (albeit minimum) income. I'm not claiming whether this is desirable or not. I don't have a rational argument either way, though my gut inclines itself towards it being positive.
My gut inclines me the other way but again no empirical evidence for that as you said.
However I have played many mmo's and I have to say the Eve model is the best I have come across. There are many things Eve fails at but the market is not one of them.
Having said that the other mmo's have all been theme parks so it is possible that markets don't really work in theme parks
Instead I will suggest argument by reversal. If a price floor for goods set by npc buyers is good does that not imply a price ceiling would also be good and if not why not?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Isn't the idea to kickstart the economy with npc vendors (kill me some troll skins x3 please for coin or evil aligned troll allies) and eventually player settlements will take over more and the market will run virtually from all player actions - perhaps with only npcs for beginner areas?
That comes under the heading of quest rewards which they have stated will be in throughout the game. Indeed in eve mission pay out on completion. I am specifically talking about things dropped from npc's when they are killed. My view would be all things dropped should be useful to players even if it is only for reprocessing into raw materials. For instance goblins may drop inferior bronze swords...you can equip and use one or by use of a forge reprocess it into bronze ingots. Naturally there would be some material loss during reprocessing
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a repost of one of my entries in the "Money Changes Everything" blog:
"The money supply in any game is "created" when player characters perform a deed and get paid for it (quests or missions, kills and NPC, same thing).
This coin must come from somewhere. I encourage Pathfinder's economy to keep a "realistic" flow of coin in mind when turning on the faucets. Corporations in RL have shares of stock held in reserve "treasury" to generate additional cash when needed, and a king will have a treasurer as well with a supply of coin stored away in a vault for use when the king needs to either increase the current money supply available to the public or to make an emergency purchase. (He might use it for other purposes as well, such as subsidizing a specific city's construction near an enemy empire to provide a well supplied and fortified outpost where attacks could be carried out.)
In any case, normally only the king can authorize the minting of coin, so most gold ore is carefully mined and brought to the royal mint for processing and production of gold coin for the treasury (other coin types typically are copper, silver, platinum and occasionally palladium depending on the game). Using physical coin might add the extra level of realism and its production, storage and trading would add many layers to the economy, not to mention the skill tables.
So, (1) consider making the mining of ore, transportation of ore for processing and finally production and storage of coin a government function to help carefully control the economy (sure you can see it all through programs, but these controls would create an in-game operation needed to turn on the faucet), and (2) consider physical coinage carried by players and lootable by looters. It would also create a need for banks and would give players a place to store coinage (and maybe even a place for bad guys to rob)."
It sounds like they have settled on "coin", a supernatural accounting tool, easy to track for the developers, but a spectral currency for players. I hope they do both the supernatural currency and hard minting of coinage through the discovery, mining, refining and minting of precious metals. It would make the game so much more interesting!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Coin enters the economy primarily from PvE sources: creature loot and NPC rewards.
We have discussed the possibility of turning precious metals into coin via a mint, but we need to get a better idea of how that would affect the economy before saying for sure. If we did that, it would mean creating general coin; it'd be really confusing to try to treat it as regional currency that might be debased.
Thanks for the input, Stephen. I'm glad to hear that minting is being thought about, and I will be interested in how you come to a final decision about it.
To be clear, when I talk about "settlements being able to create and distribute their own currency," I'm imagining a system something like the DKP system. Settlements could give out DKP currency for whatever activities they wish, and allow players to redeem their DKP with the settlement leaders for whatever they decide. I don't expect any NPC interactions to be tied in with this, it would be recognized only by players making the choice to trade for it. Really, I'm hoping for an in-game interface that settlement leaders could use to set permissions for who has the authority to create these 'points' and that players can use to trade these 'points' to eachother. As far as I know, the mods available in WoW do not allow you to trade points to another player (except by one of the 'points controllers' manually adjusting their scores); this is the function that I would like to see. If the ability to mod the game allows this to happen, I'd be happy with that =)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wish to keep speculating, and to put pressure on Ryan, Stephen and Lee (among others) to work in coins of various types (the above mentioned coppers, silver, gold, platinum and maybe a palladium or two here and there) as well as uncut and cut gemstones. Maybe mithril or adamantite, or any other fantasy metal(s). Looting that is WAY more fun than ephemeral "coin". Well, you couldn't loot "coin", since it is ephemeral, spectral, phantom, unseen and unheard, phantasmal.....you get the idea. Searching, mining, refining, and minting! Settlement treasury! How cool would that be?
*jingle, jingle*
Coin enters the economy primarily from PvE sources: creature loot and NPC rewards.
We have discussed the possibility of turning precious metals into coin via a mint, but we need to get a better idea of how that would affect the economy before saying for sure. If we did that, it would mean creating general coin; it'd be really confusing to try to treat it as regional currency that might be debased.
Stephen, I just wanted to thank you for answering questions on the forums. It's cool to get clarification and information! :)
Btw.. I wonder if you guys would consider starting some form of Q&A, whether just a post, or restarting the video Q&A's, either would be really cool. Just thought I would ask.