Question about Half-elves


Advice


10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

Here is a quote from their stat entry:

Other Racial Traits

Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.

Question: does a half elf qualify for:

Fast Learner (Human)
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.

Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.

If this is the case, what are the best two racial favored class bonuses to combine in a multiclass?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Feats and Classes are not effects.

See here.


Doesn't say anything about feats, just racial archetypes... Quote

"Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?
No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial class archetypes do not count as an "effect."

But thanks for the info, it's always good to know!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, you notice how there are feats that have "Half-Orc or Orc" as a prerequisites?

If Half-Orcs count as Orcs for prerequisites, such a thing wouldn't be needed.

There are other examples.


They don't qualify because of Elf-Blood but they do qualify because they have the Human sub-type which qualifies you for prerequisites.


actually blood troll is incorrect. there is no answer as an earlier answer by jason bulham lead designer regarding the racial heritage feats says feats and archtypes are effects regarding race.

we have asked the design team to clear up these mutally exclusive rulings, they have not done so yet. in the meantime, there exists designer statements supporting either interpretation.


That works for me.


Also, verify with your GM if he or she will allow you to use the feat as you intend to do so (I know I wouldn't allow it). Most people read the feat as allowing you to gain 1 HP+Skill Point per level or to take 1 racial bonus--you don't get to do something like 1 HP and 1 racial favored class bonus or even 2 racial favored class bonuses.

So again, check with your GM. If this is for PFS, assume it's the most restrictive reading of the rule to be safe or expect table variation.

Dark Archive

Actually, if it's for PFS, Mike Brock has clarified completely that the Advanced Race Guide options and any book released after are only for the specific races for which they are written.


Mergy wrote:
Actually, if it's for PFS, Mike Brock has clarified completely that the Advanced Race Guide options and any book released after are only for the specific races for which they are written.

so does that mean that humans are exempt from that rule? the racial heritage feat is in the APG. Just what humans need, it's not like they arent the most powerful race already.

Dark Archive

ikarinokami wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Actually, if it's for PFS, Mike Brock has clarified completely that the Advanced Race Guide options and any book released after are only for the specific races for which they are written.
so does that mean that humans are exempt from that rule? the racial heritage feat is in the APG. Just what humans need, it's not like they arent the most powerful race already.

Racial Heritage applies to all options pre-Advanced Race Guide. Any options from the Advanced Race Guide and any book after that cannot be taken with Racial Heritage.


The "half-orc or orc" feats list both because when they were written orcs weren't a PC race and it would look weird to have feats that only listed a monster race as a prerequisite, even if they could be taken by a PC race. Note that while the game pre-ARG is full of "half-orc or orc" feats, there isn't a single "half-elf or elf" feat - because elves have always been a PC race.

Mergy wrote:
Racial Heritage applies to all options pre-Advanced Race Guide. Any options from the Advanced Race Guide and any book after that cannot be taken with Racial Heritage.

There have been a variety of dumb rulings about the Racial Heritage and the whatever-blooded racial traits, but "you can't tell how things interact just by reading their text, you need to check where they were printed as well" is about as dumb as it gets.


Roberta Yang wrote:

The "half-orc or orc" feats list both because when they were written orcs weren't a PC race and it would look weird to have feats that only listed a monster race as a prerequisite, even if they could be taken by a PC race. Note that while the game pre-ARG is full of "half-orc or orc" feats, there isn't a single "half-elf or elf" feat - because elves have always been a PC race.

Mergy wrote:
Racial Heritage applies to all options pre-Advanced Race Guide. Any options from the Advanced Race Guide and any book after that cannot be taken with Racial Heritage.
There have been a variety of dumb rulings about the Racial Heritage and the whatever-blooded racial traits, but "you can't tell how things interact just by reading their text, you need to check where they were printed as well" is about as dumb as it gets.

I concur in full with this opinion


There are traits however that specify half-elf and other that specify elf or human.

That might be a hint that they're distinct choices.


So that is a no for half- elves and half- orcs? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of those races? Being able to qualify for the benefits of both parent races?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Spells and effects still treat them as three different races.

Class and feats are not effects though.

Most of those who disagree point to the Race Builder in the ARG, which, doesn't have the Elf Blood or Orc Blood trait listed, and is a bit of a mess.


Byrdology wrote:
So that is a no for half- elves and half- orcs? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of those races? Being able to qualify for the benefits of both parent races?

In fact I mostly see that trait as a disadvantage than an advantage.

Most buff spells and so either target "humanoids" in general and don't care one bit if you're an elf, human, orc or dwarf. Or they target "creatures" which makes the target pool even broader, or stuff like animals and work on neither.

Then there's the stuff like "Elf bane" or "favorite enemy: Elf", where this suddenly kicks in and you count as an elf and get hit for the extra damage.

It's the curse of the dual heritage.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Spells and effects still treat them as three different races.

Class and feats are not effects though.

Most of those who disagree point to the Race Builder in the ARG, which, doesn't have the Elf Blood or Orc Blood trait listed, and is a bit of a mess.

Again this is incorrect. There is no answer. Jason Bulhman said in the faq archtypes and feats are effects with regard to race.

they later said the opposite without overruling the first ruling.

Note in the monk blog they specifically stated they were over ruling a prior ruling.

So the answer is there is no answer, because the designers have given two contridictory answers without stating that either over ruled the other.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I suggest folks hit the FAQ button lots here to bring the confusion to the attention of the designers.

(Remember... designer ≠ developer in tabletop RPG lingo!)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Link to Jason Bulhman's "FAQ"?


Distinct choices in that half-elves have more to choose from; that's the benefit of their racial heritage qualifying feature.


Racial Heritage: Can a human with this feat take levels in an archetype that requires you to be of a specific race?

Yes, the Racial Heritage feat allows you to qualify for archetypes that have the chosen race as a requirement, assuming you still meet all of the other requirements to take levels in the archetype.

—Jason Bulmahn, 07/27/12

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9pka

the two answers are mutally exclusive.

the thread is here

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2plcm?Design-Team-please-look-into-these-mutall y

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The Racial Heritage feat is not the Elf Blood or Orc Blood racial trait.

Both are correct, and they may have similar wording, it is not identical.


It looks like bad wording--it seems like the intent is to close off racial archetypes to characters not specifically of that race and only of that race, so I'd just roll with that, personally.

(And then I'd still allow a half-elf or half-orc raised among one or the other to take the racial archetypes of their dominant culture, probably.)


blackbloodtroll wrote:

The Racial Heritage feat is not the Elf Blood or Orc Blood racial trait.

Both are correct, and they may have similar wording, it is not identical.

please explain the difference to me? because it seems to me that jason's answer to the first question is that archtypes are considered effects with regard to race.

and the second faq answer is saying that archtypes are not effects with regard to race.


Mystery Meep wrote:

It looks like bad wording--it seems like the intent is to close off racial archetypes to characters not specifically of that race and only of that race, so I'd just roll with that, personally.

(And then I'd still allow a half-elf or half-orc raised among one or the other to take the racial archetypes of their dominant culture, probably.)

again the problem is that the racial heritage feat and its ruling contradicts this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I see what you mean.

A minor rewording of the Racial Heritage feat would solve it all.


I'm confused... Can 1/2 elves and orcs take fast learner, or did I miss the final answer?


Byrdology wrote:
I'm confused... Can 1/2 elves and orcs take fast learner?

We are all confused. it's up to your GM. If you are asking whether it's supported officially, there is no answer, until the designers clarify their previous faq answers.


Regardless of whether it's an "effect related to race", it still has a prerequisite and, by the ARG, the subtype qualifies you for racial prerequisites. For instance; if I create a race Orks using the ARG and give them the Humanoid(Orc) type(subtype), they qualify for anything that has the prerequisite of being an Orc. If it didn't work this way, your Orks couldn't take feats, traits, and such requiring the Orc race because it'd be referring to the core monster race Orcs. The rules in the ARG are clear. The first FAQ regarding Racial Heritage is clear. The FAQ regarding half-breeds is the only thing that introduces a contrary situation.

Dark Archive

Byrdology wrote:
I'm confused... Can 1/2 elves and orcs take fast learner, or did I miss the final answer?

In PFS, no. In a homegame, ask your GM.


Mergy wrote:
Byrdology wrote:
I'm confused... Can 1/2 elves and orcs take fast learner, or did I miss the final answer?
In PFS, no. In a homegame, ask your GM.

Is that an official ruling? Is there a link?

Thanks for all the answers.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Roberta Yang wrote:
The "half-orc or orc" feats list both because when they were written orcs weren't a PC race and it would look weird to have feats that only listed a monster race as a prerequisite, even if they could be taken by a PC race. Note that while the game pre-ARG is full of "half-orc or orc" feats, there isn't a single "half-elf or elf" feat - because elves have always been a PC race.

I just searched the PRD and found plenty of evidence to the contrary. There are feats that have "elf or half-elf" as a pre-requisite, feats that have "elf" as a pre-requisite, and others that have "half-elf" as a pre-requisite. The feat "Breadth of Experience", for example, has "dwarf, elf, or gnome" as a pre-requisite -- and the other pre-requisite of being over 100 years of age suggests that it really is intended to exclude half-elves.

Dark Archive

Linky. If you want to use Racial Heritage to grab an option, check the Additional Resources page to make sure whether you actually need to be a member of the race. Blood of the Night, Advanced Race Guide and etc. require you to actually be the race.


Since race prerequisites are based off your racial subtype, an ability with "half-elf" as a prerequisite really translates to "both human and elf subtypes". So an Elf wouldn't qualify for a Half-Elf prereq while a Half-Elf would qualify for an Elf prereq.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Kazaan wrote:
Since race prerequisites are based off your racial subtype, an ability with "half-elf" as a prerequisite really translates to "both human and elf subtypes". So an Elf wouldn't qualify for a Half-Elf prereq while a Half-Elf would qualify for an Elf prereq.

That's part of what's in debate.


It should be a simple yes, but its not... I am sad about this...

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Two FAQs updated: Core Rulebook FAQ on racial archetypes, Advanced Player's Guide FAQ on racial favored class options. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

This resolves a contradiction between Core Rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide FAQs that gave contradictory answers.


There's your answer. Yes, you can totally take that feat.

As to what 2 classes work together, that really depends on what kind of character you want to play.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Since race prerequisites are based off your racial subtype, an ability with "half-elf" as a prerequisite really translates to "both human and elf subtypes". So an Elf wouldn't qualify for a Half-Elf prereq while a Half-Elf would qualify for an Elf prereq.
That's part of what's in debate.

Apparently, the debate is over:

FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

Yes.

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13


Can a halfelf take Fast Learner? Sources, either way?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jube H'ru wrote:
Can a halfelf take Fast Learner? Sources, either way?

yes, it can take anything a human or elf can take.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This FAQ answer the question, and the answer is yes

Click Here!


(This is an odd one), So, as a half elf, i qualify for human traits. If i use one of my 2 initial free traits, to gain the human "skilled" racial trait, do i then qualify for the human "dual talent " racial trait?


Jube H'ru wrote:
(This is an odd one), So, as a half elf, i qualify for human traits. If i use one of my 2 initial free traits, to gain the human "skilled" racial trait, do i then qualify for the human "dual talent " racial trait?

No. For one, I don't think racial traits count. And even if they did, half-elves lack the "bonus feat" racial trait. Adaptability doesn't count in this case.


Jube H'ru wrote:
(This is an odd one), So, as a half elf, i qualify for human traits. If i use one of my 2 initial free traits, to gain the human "skilled" racial trait, do i then qualify for the human "dual talent " racial trait?

Race traits and racial traits aren't the same thing.

Dual talent and skilled are racial traits.

Humans don't actually have race traits that I can think of, they're usually listed as traits for ethnicity.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Claxon wrote:
Humans don't actually have race traits that I can think of, they're usually listed as traits for ethnicity.

I found five traits with a prerequisite of "Human" and no ethnicity specified on the Race trait page of the Archives of Nethys. Of course, there are a whole bunch more for specific ethnicities.


Jube H'ru wrote:
(This is an odd one), So, as a half elf, i qualify for human traits. If i use one of my 2 initial free traits, to gain the human "skilled" racial trait, do i then qualify for the human "dual talent " racial trait?

Race traits (e.g. "Forlorn" or "Auspicious Tattoo") and Racial Traits (e.g. "Skilled" or "Elven Immunities") are distinct. You can take a race trait with any of your choice of traits, but you can only make substitutions for racial traits that are specified in the alternate racial trait in question.

Since half-elves lack the "Bonus Feat" and "Skilled" racial traits to trade away, they cannot take "Dual talent" even if they count as human.

A trickier question is whether a half-elf, counting as an elf,could trade away its "Keen Senses" racial trait (which is identical to the elf "Keen Senses") racial trait for the elf alternative racial trait "Urbanite". I would be inclined to think not, since Urbanite says "Elves who live in cities for more than a century..." which is not a thing many half-elves can do with any regularity (being venerable at 125).

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