Help me with this Rogue I've inherited.


Advice


One of our friends has had to leave the game, and I am going to be playing his character, along with mine. The GM is going to let me change the guy, but with some stipulations: I can't rearrange ability scores, can't change his race, he has to be remade as a Rogue 4, and no third-party/3.X stuff; only PF material.

S 13
D 16
C 10
I 13
W 12
Ch 16

These scores do not include the 4th level ability point.

If it matters, the group consists of Paladin4, ranged Ranger4, Fighter2/Cleric2, Sorcerer4. We rarely get beyond level 10.

What should I do with this Rogue?

Thanks for stopping by.


ok first of all: why the hell did your friend put the 16 into CHA? was he planning on dipping sorc?

second, will your GM allow you to take rogue archtypes? because if so, what your group would use is a ninja.


What race? Can you go ninja or must rogue?


The character was originally a Bard/Rogue. The GM hates bards, and wants him all Rogue, all the time.

Must be human, must be rogue. Archetypes are allowed, but no ninja.

It's really restricting, right?


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Shimesen wrote:

ok first of all: why the hell did your friend put the 16 into CHA? was he planning on dipping sorc?

second, will your GM allow you to take rogue archtypes? because if so, what your group would use is a ninja.

You ask that like nobody ever has to be face of the party.

Such strong language for something that's hardly a crime or a nerf. Sheesh. I guess he did it to make you angry. Mission accomplished, I guess.


secher_nbiw wrote:

The character was originally a Bard/Rogue. The GM hates bards, and wants him all Rogue, all the time.

Must be human, must be rogue. Archetypes are allowed, but no ninja.

It's really restricting, right?

So... What is supposed to change and why does he hate bards?


What do you want to do? Do you actually want to play this character? What race is it, and do stats include racial modifiers?

The Con means you have no business in melee, but ranged sneak attacking is hard to do.

Level 4 point should go into str or int.


MrSin wrote:


So... What is supposed to change and why does he hate bards?

I guess I'm just picking feats and Rogue talents. He hates bards because "they don't really do anything except stand around and perform."


Do you need trap finding? Does the GM need a trap spotter and disabler? Is that his definition of all-rogue?


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I think you should play a different character. You sound pretty unenthusiastic about it, and the DM's restrictions sound needlessly strict and draconian. He's not even allowing you to have the classes the former player ACTUALLY had for cripes' sake!

It's a game, it should be fun and you should be able to play what you want.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

What do you want to do? Do you actually want to play this character? What race is it, and do stats include racial modifiers?

The Con means you have no business in melee, but ranged sneak attacking is hard to do.

Level 4 point should go into str or int.

I kind of want to play this character. Two of the guys are pretty new and still getting used to their own characters - I'm the designated player for absent PCs.

It's human, and I believe the stats include the +2.

Was thinking of going with the Sniper archetype and some talents that go with it?


secher_nbiw wrote:


Was thinking of going with the Sniper archetype and some talents that go with it?

I think is the best bet. is really hard to do sneak attack from range but with 10 in constitution your chances in melee are low.


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Since it was part bard before, I don't see why Rogue 4 is any more "true" to the original than Bard 4. Ask the DM if you can do that, your stats are better oriented for it, and it's... a better class. Your DM thinks bards are useless. Prove him wrong.

If you do stick with Rogue and want to do ranged, Swashbuckler archetype for longbow proficiency might be best. Normally I'd say dip a class or pick a race that gets proficiency, but those aren't options for you.

EDIT: Actually, I think there's a PF Society trait that grants longbow proficiency. Can't recall the name, though. Do you get to choose 2 traits?


Hunters Eye, its an Andoran trait that also gets rid of the penalty for the second range increment. Theres also Heirloom Weapon I guess, but spontaneously gaining an heirloom weapon might be wierd.

Bards definitely do more than sit and perform if you play them right. They also cease to burn their standard to do it later on.


Option 1: Knife master/ scout archetypes. Put your lvl 4 point into str, and at lvl 5 go straight hunt master cavalier and focus on 1 or 2 dogs at the most.make sure you and your pack take the teamwork feat that allows an extra 1d6 dmg when flanking.

Option 2: take your next 4 lvls as a sorc and go for arcane trickster.

Option 3a: if you are allowed to rearrange stats, go for a 4 lvl magus dip then into duelist
Option 3b: barbarian/ rogue or ranger/ rogue for melee dmg, or vivi alchemist/ rogue or wizard/ rogue into arcane trickster.
Option 3c: knife master rogue/ monk 6-8/ rogue X for full meat grinder effect.


What is with the Bard hate? It seems rather irrational. The are hardly over powered when compared to practically everything else, they're just very versatile. I don't like having Magus's run in my party due to past experience, but I allow them. Go have a fit with your GM, roll high on your whining check, and build it a bard when he concedes.


Rather than play a second character I would just retire it, especially with all the stipulations.

if you must though, keep your regular character as your combat guy, and set this rogue up for all your out-of-combat/role-playing needs. If that causes him to croak in combat... well... no biggie.

Sczarni

Shimesen wrote:

ok first of all: why the hell did your friend put the 16 into CHA? was he planning on dipping sorc?

second, will your GM allow you to take rogue archtypes? because if so, what your group would use is a ninja.

Well, if I had to guess, I would say that the Int 13 and the Cha 16 were because he was planning to take Improved Feint (a Bluff, so high Cha, which requires Combat Expertise Int 13), and the like as he leveled, thus maximizing his opportunity to sneak attack... but who knows?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Thug. Enforcer, Sap Master.


You should go with the carnivalist archetype from the Animal Companion supplement put out recently, and take a monkey companion. Put your high stats in CHA and DEX to maximize your ability to preform with your monkey and break into houses.

If you have to play the character, might as well make it a fun one :)


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Thug. Enforcer, Sap Master.

Con 10.

And to do that build reliably, you need Shatter Defenses, which he'll need another 4 levels (or 3 more if he goes straight full BAB classes the next 3 levels) to obtain. In a group that will likely not even go past level 10. With Con 10 (sorry, did I mention that already?).


secher_nbiw wrote:

One of our friends has had to leave the game, and I am going to be playing his character, along with mine. The GM is going to let me change the guy, but with some stipulations: I can't rearrange ability scores, can't change his race, he has to be remade as a Rogue 4, and no third-party/3.X stuff; only PF material.

S 13
D 16
C 10
I 13
W 12
Ch 16

These scores do not include the 4th level ability point.

If it matters, the group consists of Paladin4, ranged Ranger4, Fighter2/Cleric2, Sorcerer4. We rarely get beyond level 10.

What should I do with this Rogue?

Thanks for stopping by.

Put your 4th into Int and skill focus UMD. Be a skill monkey and steal wands from people. Get leadership at 7 and work that charisma.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Do you have choice of alignment?


Thanks for the replies.

I do get to pick 2 traits - Reactionary? and something else. Not sure if we can pick Golarion campaign traits, because we're playing in the FR.

Switching to bard might not be an option - the GM is a good friend, but when he gets this way with something it's impossible to change his mind. He is adamant about not changing the stats, too.

Knife Master is interesting, but with the low Con, will it work? Would it be worth picking up Toughness?

We did consider dumping the character altogether, but he's been just handy enough to keep around. There are some neat multi-class options here.

Is Improved Feint worth it?

Right now he's CG, but I'm think it could be changed. A monkey companion would be bananas!


Witch. Any witch. If the GM hates bards, play a witch. It's silly to hate a class that buffs teammates. Or an Elemental wizard. He'll hate that too.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

DM doesn't know anything about Pathfinder Bards, huh?


If you're stuck with those stats and are being deprived of the bard levels the character previously had just junk the character. Rogues cannot be functional archers and cannot go into melee with 10 con.

Or play it as a two weapon feint melee build with woefully inadequate hitpoints and don't get it raised from the dead when the inevitable happens.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Can you take alternate Racial traits?


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I've changed my mind. Go melee. Go as hard on offense as you can, and don't care at all about defense. You'll be able to do good damage and feel like a badass, until inevitably the PC dies. Then you're free to play whatever the hell you want and you can truly rejoice.

So yeah, thug rogue w/ enforcer and sap adept, two weapon fighting with saps as BBT said. Use the Human variant for Skill Focus at levels 1, 8, and 16 in return for the normal human bonus feat since you may as well go for Eldritch Heritage anyway. Get a Compsognathus familiar. It's decent in its own right, and grants you +4 initiative. Dual wield saps.

Feats:
1 TWF
1 Skill Focus (Knowledge whatever) [Human]
2 Weapon Finesse [Finesse Rogue talent]
3 Eldritch Heritage (Arcane bloodline)
4 Sap Adept [Combat Training talent]

5th level feat should be Sap Master.


B.A. Ironskull wrote:

Witch. Any witch. If the GM hates bards, play a witch. It's silly to hate a class that buffs teammates. Or an Elemental wizard. He'll hate that too.

+1


secher_nbiw wrote:
MrSin wrote:


So... What is supposed to change and why does he hate bards?

...He hates bards because "they don't really do anything except stand around and perform."

oh HEEEEELL naw

Where is your GM I must deliver my dissertation on why bards are cool.


Oh, and next time you build a new character show up with a half-orc Chelish Diva built Str>Con>Cha and show him how Pathfinder bards do nothing but stand around and perform.


Atarlost wrote:
Oh, and next time you build a new character show up with a half-orc Chelish Diva built Str>Con>Cha and show him how Pathfinder bards do nothing but stand around and perform.

Or Archeaologist or Dervish of the Dawn. Some bards perform differently than others.


MrSin wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Oh, and next time you build a new character show up with a half-orc Chelish Diva built Str>Con>Cha and show him how Pathfinder bards do nothing but stand around and perform.
Or Archeaologist or Dervish of the Dawn. Some bards perform differently than others.

Chelish Diva gets medium armor access earliest, which is kind of handy for strength based melee. Archaeologist and Dawnflower Dervish are too un-bardic to actually prove anything.


Actually anyone can use medium armor without penalty with comfort enchant or armor expert.

How dare those bards not be bards! I said some bards perform differently than others.


With Int 13, you can grab Combat Expertise which can act as a prerequisite for Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, etc.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

With these restrictions, just go complete offense.

If the PC dies, then whatever, you went out in a blaze of glory.


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You can't go hardcore melee with that constitution and this guy is a bonus character so you might as well have fun with him by making him into a scoundrel. Harassment by hit and run raids, debuffing and cons would seem to be his bread and butter.

Be a nuisance by spamming alchemist's fire and hand crossbow bolts. Take the poisoner archetype and put drow poison on everything. Change some to inhaled type and mix it with smokesticks if you can, or use poison tubes if you can't. Use nets. Jack your disable device as high as you can and then set about sabotaging everything. Buy a bunch of bear traps and trespasser's boots and use them. Use sovereign or alchemical glue to glue doors shut and render locks unusable. Seduce maidservants and steal or make impressions of important keys and case households. Using combat maneuvers with a reach weapon to avoid AoOs would also seem prudent, as would buying trained riding dogs and other guard beasts and using hired muscle to do your dirty work for you. If you have to do the combat thing, you can always stay at reach and flank with a long spear. You've got lowish hit points and not much armor, so positioning and miss chances from smoke will have to do.

I'd probably switch to alchemist levels next and either keep racking up your sneak attack dice by going vivisectionist with a side of internal alchemist or grab grenadier levels and enjoy packing alchemical weapons into your longbow (or crossbow if you decide to pick up something else with your martial proficiency).

Check out these threads for some inspiration:

Being Batman

Rogue Optimization

The ninja archetype/alternate class would be even better, IMO, due to the ki pool tricks. Does he hate them because of the Asian fluff? If so, ask to take regular rogue weapons and grab the ki pool...you can call the shuriken "throwing knives" and use the same mechanics. Its hard to beat the action economy that the ki pool gives you for smoke bombs and vanishing, and I hate having to waste a rogue trick getting access to it only to have it not be as good.

Its too bad there's a "no 3rd party" rule in place. I just picked up Rogue Glory and it has a lot of great stuff in it - equipment, improved rules for crafting simple traps and some archetypes that I thought were pretty cool. You might want to pop for it and hope he lets some of the stuff in, if not the archetypes. Its quite inspirational, if nothing else.


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I like the kamikaze idea.

Strap this rogue to the gills for Super Stealth (Skill Focus & Stealthy) - magical knack for Vanish as an SLA from 2 rogue talents. When he gets to within charge-and-command word/standard action range, vanish, sneak over, then have him scritch his entire Light Load of Fuse Grenades with the single tindertwig he has in his off hand.

Pellet grenades are arguably better than fuse grenades, but I didn't see Ultimate Equipment listed. While the fuses are sizzling along, he cackles maniacally as he just double-moves with the few rounds of vanish he has until he explodes amidst as many foes as possible, obliterating everything within 10 feet. Voluntarily fail your own Reflex saving throw - and act with extreme prejudice against anyone looking to spoil your grenade-based antics via wiggly fingers, decanters or the like.

If your group has access to create pit, drop some bad guys in there ... then have the rogue swan dive into the pit with a crowbar and a really tasteless joke on his lips.

;)


MrSin wrote:

Actually anyone can use medium armor without penalty with comfort enchant or armor expert.

How dare those bards not be bards! I said some bards perform differently than others.

Archaeologist might be good to suggest to his GM for this character, but if he wants to prove his GM wrong about bards doing nothing but performing a bard that doesn't perform (and self-only battle dance doesn't count) doesn't prove anything.


The more I look at this character, the more I'm thinking about using him as some maniacal, suicidal flanker, TWFing with saps or daggers.

Maybe my GM will relent and either give me more viable options for re-making this guy, or I will get to roll up a new one.

Thanks for your help- there are some great ideas in here.


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Despite other threads and opinions, rogues are viable and enjoyable. However, you need to decide what kind of flavor you want. The key question is whether you want/need to keep your trap-finding.

S 13 +1=14
D 16
C 10
I 13
W 12
Ch 16

FEATS
Human - Combat Expertise (Free +1 dodge bonus with Threatening Defender)
1st - Improved Feint (Maximize Bluff skill)
3rd - Two-weapon fighting (More sneak when you can flank)

TRAITS
Threatening Defender
+1 Will

ROGUE TALENTS
2nd - Fast Stealth (Let's you take point using Stealth at the same speed as your party. Potentially giving you more opportunities to surprise.
4th - Ninja Trick (Pressure Points or Wall Crawler)
- Pressure Points lets you do Strength or Dexterity ability damage in addition to your sneak attack
- Wall Crawler gives you a Climb speed which can be highly useful

MAX SKILLS
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy (to gather info and play party faceman)
Disable Device
Perception
Stealth
Use Magic Device

AT LEAST ONE RANK
Appraise
Climb
Disguise
Knowledge (dungeoneering)
Knowledge (local)
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Swim

So this character is pointman and face. With Wall Crawler, you can take him almost anywhere. With Fast Stealth, you can travel in front or on the side of your party to maximize surprise. Make sure you partner with your melee specialists. If you can't flank, use improved feint to do 3d6+2 damage with a short sword. If you can flank, you have two attacks doing 3d6+2. If you want to be more ruthless, you take Pressure Points and debuff your opponents.

Most of the enjoyment that I get playing a character is creatively using all of its abilities. While this character does not have area of effects, high attack bonuses, or save-or-suck abilities, he has lots of skills and has tremendous potential to interact with the setting.

Bonne chance!


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Knife master archetype with the river rat trait that gives a flat +1 to damage with daggers which makes it on par with a short sword on average. And your sneak attack deals d8s which more than makes up the damage difference from a short sword. Also, daggers can be thrown at 30 ft for sneak dmg as well. They are easy to conceal, and cheap to buy in quantity so you can have multiple daggers that bypass different DR.

Just a thought. Feats you will want are combat expt, imp feint, TWF (only the first one), maybe point blank shot and rapid shot. With a 14 str at lvl 4, get a +2 str belt and you can skip out on weapon finesse. Take your 5-8th lvls as weapon master, and add an extra lvl for weapon spec if you want, but I would certainly get that 5th lvl of rogue for the extra d6. You will be rocking a mithril b-plate and a buckler for when you aren't TWFing.


If you want a 2 hander rogue try this:
Your stat array should look like this ++DEX>+CON>STR>INT>WIS>-CHA
r1 sneak attack 1d6, imp initiative, weapon finesse
r3 sneak attack 2d6, exotic weapon, Elven Curve Blade (ECB). A finesseable 2 hand weapon (deals 1d10 damage).
r5 sneak attack 3d6, desperate battler (gives you +1/+1 if you have no allies within 10 feet). Good for use on the surprise round. Alternately you can substitute a feat that gives you an extra 1d6 of sneak attack @ BAB +3 (sorry, I don't remember the name of the feat).
r7 sneak attack, 4d6, power attack (crank up that 2 handed weapon damage).
r9 sneak attack, 5d6, vital strike
r10 advanced talent (opportunist)
r11 sneak attack, 6d6, improved critical ECB
Make your ECB agile so you can add DEX to damage. Then add weapon pluses when you can. Also start working on step up & strike and maybe critical focus.


With those stats I'd strongly encourage to see if you could make a ninja instead. Ninja are an alternate class of a rogue so it might be acceptable. 4th level point into strength for sure. I don't know what race so that might make a difference but

Feats-
Toughness (your con is really low)
Two weapon fighting

Ninja Tricks -
Vanishing
Shadow Clones

Silver Crusade

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Thug. Enforcer, Sap Master.

Con 10.

And to do that build reliably, you need Shatter Defenses, which he'll need another 4 levels (or 3 more if he goes straight full BAB classes the next 3 levels) to obtain. In a group that will likely not even go past level 10. With Con 10 (sorry, did I mention that already?).

To SotS and all the others saying to stay out of melee: HE'S STARTING AT LEVEL 4!!! Did you not read the thread? Yes, if this was a level 1 character, his 9 HP would be a liability (although I've pulled it off before), but at level 4 his 24-27 HP are going to be just fine.

I highly recommend getting kukri specialization and going with the knife master archetype. Thug and Enforcer/Sap Master would work just fine as well, especially if you get the feeling this adventure is going to go well past level 10.

Level 4 Human Rogue (Knife Master)

Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
Level 2: Finesse Rogue
Level 3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri
Level 4: Distracting Attack, Str +1

You'll have to find somebody else to direct you past that level.


secher_nbiw wrote:


What should I do with this Rogue?

Thanks for stopping by.

Max out his perform (Strings) skill and stand around with a lute in every fight.

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