Sorry but I just need say something about this very common question that is almost FAQ worth except the FAQ isn't for the purpose; Is the Summoner a broken class, well the answer is VERY simple;
Yes, yes it is...
BUT not really in the way everyone thinks. Yes, it maybe too powerful, however the class and its archetypes are STRONGLY relative to other classes by how powerful the PCs are, specifically, if you use point buy (which a lot do) and how many points the players get. While the player can be set as you want for the game, the Eidolon and the Summons are set in stone. I see a lot of people saying that the class can out do fighters, but I don't see them saying what stat system they are using or what point-buy. YES if your in a 10 or even 5 point-buy the Summoner is class is going to totally kick real @$$ as they would be like GODS. On the flip side, if you have a 25 point-buy and let the players start with the Advanced template for free.... The Eidolon and the summons are going to suck to no end! I played a cleric that summoned in one of those games and I was totally out classed as my summons were only set to powers of 15 (?) point-buy, not 25 with the template. The template did nothing for my summoning and I suffered for it.
So my suggestion here is maybe Paizo should step-back, breath, and think, did they do the right thing continuing with these set in stone summoned beings stats? Perhaps if you have some new rules for Eidolons and stats for summoned monsters for various point-buy levels this could solve a lot of problems with this and other classes.
Thank you,
-Hexen
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So basically, you're asking the Paizo staff to compensate for every possible permutation of Point Buy amount plus random houserules (Advanced Template for everybody!)?
Yeah I'm sure they'll get right on that.
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The fact that summoned monsters are always the same stats while PCs vary has been known for like, ever.
As I continuously have said... High stats / point buy does little to help casters but is a major help to mundane classes who need more ability scores high. It also makes them stronger compared to the summons. Ditto for using max hp (or 3/4 max, which is my preference) for PCs. And allowing for lots of magic items to be found/bought, too. Ones the players want, specifically. It's much harder for mundanes in a game where treasure is randomly rolled and there's no magic walmart. A meta rod of extend works just the same for any caster; a +2 great axe may be useless to the party melee character or may be the wrong size even if he does want it.
But, heavens forbid that you run a "high power" game. Which is what high stats, high fixed hp, and tons of magic items is considered. Despite being blatantly disproportinoately more helpful for the weaker classes.
EDIT: What I'm trying to say is, rather than have different monster entries based upon the point buy used, which is arduous not worth the effort, just make "high powered campaigns" the expected norm and the problem solves itself. And slightly bridges the mundane/caster divide, too.
Will this revelation finally get you to quit pushing for a higher point buy than what the GM allowed? It is humorous when players want to play with all the toys, then turn right around and BWMC when the GM plays with the exact same toybox.
It is humorous when players want to play with all the toys, then turn right around and BWMC when the GM plays with the exact same toybox.
BWMC?
The fact that summoned monsters are always the same stats while PCs vary has been known for like, ever.
As I continuously have said... High stats / point buy does little to help casters but is a major help to mundane classes who need more ability scores high. It also makes them stronger compared to the summons. Ditto for using max hp (or 3/4 max, which is my preference) for PCs. And allowing for lots of magic items to be found/bought, too. Ones the players want, specifically. It's much harder for mundanes in a game where treasure is randomly rolled and there's no magic walmart. A meta rod of extend works just the same for any caster; a +2 great axe may be useless to the party melee character or may be the wrong size even if he does want it.
But, heavens forbid that you run a "high power" game. Which is what high stats, high fixed hp, and tons of magic items is considered. Despite being blatantly disproportinoately more helpful for the weaker classes.
EDIT: What I'm trying to say is, rather than have different monster entries based upon the point buy used, which is arduous not worth the effort, just make "high powered campaigns" the expected norm and the problem solves itself. And slightly bridges the mundane/caster divide, too.
I think you and everyone here is sort of getting my point but missing another at the same time. We here on the board have all been hearing how overpowered this class "Summoner" is, however they are failing to list the already agreed pivotal point in judging this class's abilities, what point-buy was the game.
As to fixes, listing 4 different stats, one for 10, 15, 20, and 25 point buy equivalent should not be too much trouble. They don't even list the templates versions of these monsters as most are ether celestial or fiendish templates, which they really should to extradite the game some.
For now, perhaps they should publish an official Player Companion with these rules, but make sure it is open source, like a lot of their other books, so everyone can make use of it.
Will this revelation finally get you to quit pushing for a higher point buy than what the GM allowed? It is humorous when players want to play with all the toys, then turn right around and BWMC when the GM plays with the exact same toybox.
I came to this revolution a LONG time ago with your last campaign if you remember. I tried to specialize in summoning to start, but quickly went down hill after the advanced template was applied. Things were a littled edgy at 25 point-buy anyway. I know we disagree on this, but that is fine. I do still push for higher stats, as it is noted that this helps out mundane classes more I have no regrets on that, but I did resist the template as long as I could, and not till after you quite generously allowed me to switch my character focus, which I did and do thank you for.
This is not a jab at you okay :D.
I am merely trying to clear the air on how we properly judge this one class. Perhaps this class in light of the static ability scores was made to a 20 point-buy for PFS play, where the rest of the game was made for 15 point-buy?? Thus why it is so powerful?
Just an off the cuff thought.
The summonable critters would frankly be best done pillaging the astral construct rules from the SRD. No need to reinvent a wheel that's already sitting there.
In 15-20 point buy campaigns summoners work juuuuust fine. They really don't break down until 25 point buy campaigns after 5th or 6th level.
Rather than just refuting... I'll offer a challenge to Hexen. If it's such an easy fix, perhaps you could show us what you actually mean for a single monster on the Summon Monster I list?
That would be four separate permutations of that monster, one for each point buy - totally easy to do right?
Then extend that to each on the 1st level list... that gets seven more creatures, for a total of 32 permutations.
2nd level 12 creatures, 48 permutations... no wait, theres elementals there. So that's an extra 3 creatures with 12 permutations... no wait theres more elemental types in Bestiary 2, so thats another 4 creatures with 16 permutations.
So that's 32 permutations of point buy for Summon Monster I, and 76 permutations for Summon Monster II... can you now see how it's a huge amount of work for very very little gain?
It is humorous when players want to play with all the toys, then turn right around and BWMC when the GM plays with the exact same toybox.BWMC?
B#!ch Whine Moan (and) Complain
B#!ch Whine Moan (and) ComplainIt is humorous when players want to play with all the toys, then turn right around and BWMC when the GM plays with the exact same toybox.BWMC?
Thanks
I think you and everyone here is sort of getting my point but missing another at the same time. We here on the board have all been hearing how overpowered this class "Summoner" is, however they are failing to list the already agreed pivotal point in judging this class's abilities, what point-buy was the game.
The game is balanced around 15-20 point buy.
Anything over that is going to obviously be skewed, especially when you throw in "Free +4 all ability scores and +2 Natural Armor" which effectively makes it something like a 55 point buy (assuming base of 10, +4 to each would be 5 points for each ability score).
Rather than just refuting... I'll offer a challenge to Hexen. If it's such an easy fix, perhaps you could show us what you actually mean for a single monster on the Summon Monster I list?
That would be four separate permutations of that monster, one for each point buy - totally easy to do right?
Then extend that to each on the 1st level list... that gets seven more creatures, for a total of 32 permutations.
2nd level 12 creatures, 48 permutations... no wait, theres elementals there. So that's an extra 3 creatures with 12 permutations... no wait theres more elemental types in Bestiary 2, so thats another 4 creatures with 16 permutations.So that's 32 permutations of point buy for Summon Monster I, and 76 permutations for Summon Monster II... can you now see how it's a huge amount of work for very very little gain?
I think your exasdurating. creatures without a fiendish/celestial template added would have 4 permutations, as noted for each of the suggested point buy levels, 10, 15, 20, and 25 points. The ones that use the fiendish/celestial template would go up to 8. (Edit: Maybe only 3/6 permutations after recent comments.)
I am not trying to be confrontational here, but I didn't say this would be easy okay. :D
I am just saying it needs to be done.
Yeah, not really a lot of new ground here. The fact that summoners (and characters that specialize in summoning) get hosed when the party exceeds the normal power for their level is something that has been fairly common knowledge for some time.
It's a lesson I've learned pretty painfully over the last five years, playing a summoning focused wizard in a party built with the equivalent of 55-90 point buy and with half again as much wealth as they should have. My best summoned monsters swing between 15 and 20 points behind the party fighters and do (when smiting) approximately 1/5th as much damage.
So yeah.
Hexen - pick one creature from the Summon Monster I table and show us how different the monster would be for each of your 4 permutations.
Prove through example how it makes the difference you imply it does.
Hexen - pick one creature from the Summon Monster I table and show us how different the monster would be for each of your 4 permutations.
Prove through example how it makes the difference you imply it does.
I would need to know the intimates of game balancing to do it right, so I refuse on this ground, and the fact that you seem rather confrontational on this. However despite this I am actually currently trying to show an example on how this would look already.
Here is a very amateur and quick attempt at what could be done (Just numbers in as place-holders), in a SEPERATE Player Companion book.
Hexen - first of all, thanks for putting forward some numbers. It actually gives something to discuss around.
And it also shows what the actual difference is for an increasing point buy... in that basically the difference from 15 to 20 is about +1 to the stat modifiers the monster cares about; and the difference from 20 to 25 is another roughly +1.
Rather than need to redo the stat blocks... perhaps it would be much simpler and more elegant to just house-rule it?
A flat +1 or +2 to everything seems to get the same effect as rewriting the stat block?
Demonstrates that a 25 point buy group justifies a +1/2 to +1 bump to APL for GMs when determining how much to upgun encounters from scripted.
Evidence of this will be witnessed this coming Saturday. ;)
The game is balanced around 15-20 point buy.
Anything over that is going to obviously be skewed, especially when you throw in "Free +4 all ability scores and +2 Natural Armor" which effectively makes it something like a 55 point buy (assuming base of 10, +4 to each would be 5 points for each ability score).
Upping the point buy doesn't drastically alter the power of the party, because the classes that get notable benefit from the higher point buy are the weaker ones.
I've demonstrated it before, but once again... My 15 point buy Human Wizard
Str 7, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 7, Cha 7
That is a perfectly viable array for a wizard. If I were to have more points to spend, that'd be nice. But I've already got 100% maxed out Int and above average dex and con, I'm quite happy. I don't need anything more to be extremely powerful and optimized because SAD classes are awesome like that.
I'd like to see that Wizard actually survive in play past 3rd or 4th level - he's dog food in most of the APs opening chapters. Will +0, -2 or worse w/ encumbrance on Climb and Swim, -2 Perception ... good luck with that. :)
Perception is either -1 or +2 depending on traits choice.
Will is about the same as a Fighter 1 would have.
Climb and Swim? Seriously? That's going to be the end of my wizard?
It would be in lemme see ... all of the Adventure Paths if your buddies get pasted or otherwise cannot babysit your Wizard. ;)
Of the PF Adventure Paths off the top of my head, Shattered Star, Carrion Crown and Skull & Shackles: all of them have scenes where either or both of those skills at a -2 or worse will get anyone very, very dead during the first chapter.
If you can't take 10 and make a DC 10 on either of those skills, you are going to have problems until you can burn scrolls or spells prepared to account for those things. A rather precious commodity even with a 20 INT for a budding Wizard during the first few character levels.
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It would be in lemme see ... all of the Adventure Paths if your buddies get pasted or otherwise cannot babysit your Wizard. ;)
Of the PF Adventure Paths off the top of my head, Shattered Star, Carrion Crown and Skull & Shackles: all of them have scenes where either or both of those skills at a -2 or worse will get anyone very, very dead during the first chapter.
If you can't take 10 and make a DC 10 on either of those skills, you are going to have problems until you can burn scrolls or spells prepared to account for those things. A rather precious commodity even with a 20 INT for a budding Wizard during the first few character levels.
Who the heck do you play with?!? Seriously, I have played similarly stated out wizards in several AP...hell some with even LOWER stats as we did 10 point buy for the challenge of it and it seriously was not an issue as long as your not stupid. APs don't really punish builds all that much...but they do punish being stupid pretty heavily. At least anything after council of thieves.
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Who the heck do you play with?!? Seriously, I have played similarly stated out wizards in several AP...hell some with even LOWER stats as we did 10 point buy for the challenge of it and it seriously was not an issue as long as your not stupid. APs don't really punish builds all that much...but they do punish being stupid pretty heavily. At least anything after council of thieves.It would be in lemme see ... all of the Adventure Paths if your buddies get pasted or otherwise cannot babysit your Wizard. ;)
Of the PF Adventure Paths off the top of my head, Shattered Star, Carrion Crown and Skull & Shackles: all of them have scenes where either or both of those skills at a -2 or worse will get anyone very, very dead during the first chapter.
If you can't take 10 and make a DC 10 on either of those skills, you are going to have problems until you can burn scrolls or spells prepared to account for those things. A rather precious commodity even with a 20 INT for a budding Wizard during the first few character levels.
I suspect its seriously not an issue as long as the DM baby sits the characters.
I get tired of people suggesting that they are more intelligent at playing a game because their experience differs from others.
For the first few levels that wizard can barely carry his own stuff, let alone pull himself out of a trap or similar situation that just springs up on you at low levels.
Who the heck do you play with?!? Seriously, I have played similarly stated out wizards in several AP...hell some with even LOWER stats as we did 10 point buy for the challenge of it and it seriously was not an issue as long as your not stupid. APs don't really punish builds all that much...but they do punish being stupid pretty heavily. At least anything after council of thieves.
In my experience with Serpent's Skull and Carrion Crown:
Smuggler's Shiv has great potential for you to just die. After that you're fine but if you can't Climb/Swim in certain parts of Smuggler's Shiv you at BEST stop progressing along until you can or find another way around (not always an option, I believe).
Carrion Crown: Not much in Harrowstone, but the latter half of Trial of the Beast has a few "Make an Acrobatics check or fall 200 feet" segments, where "Make an Acrobatics check" is triggered every time an enemy fires its bow at you.
Meh, how suvivable that is for a wizard comes down to how PF handles conservation of momentum.
The best Wizard archetype is the Teleport Conjuror, so he can just sudden shift from impending harm like a fall. Unless teleporting conserves momentum, of course.
I always figured it did.
And the Teleport Conjuror thing would save him from the falling damage if you allowed it, but it wouldn't let him make that DC 20 Swim check after that 200 foot fall.
And it's hard to cast spells underwater.
I think you and everyone here is sort of getting my point but missing another at the same time. We here on the board have all been hearing how overpowered this class "Summoner" is, however they are failing to list the already agreed pivotal point in judging this class's abilities, what point-buy was the game.
As to fixes, listing 4 different stats, one for 10, 15, 20, and 25 point buy equivalent should not be too much trouble. They don't even list the templates versions of these monsters as most are ether celestial or fiendish templates, which they really should to extradite the game some.
For now, perhaps they should publish an official Player Companion with these rules, but make sure it is open source, like a lot of their...
Firstly, a 25 point buy is unusual in games. That's leaving out the Advanced template, which means basically you were in a Monty Haul campaign.
Second, most people seem to play in 15 or 20 point buy, or even 4d6 drop the lowest. 25 and 10 seem to be uncommon.
Third, why do you assume that everyone is playing a point buy game in the first place? And why is the 25 point buy your standard of comparison?
15 is the standard assumption of the game.
20 is the standard for PFS.
Because of this, examples and discussions center around 15 to 20 point buy.
I'm not sure I agree higher HP for PC's is a boon to martials. They tend to be pretty tough regardless, so bonus hit points will do less for them than casters.
When opponents deal 30 dmg per round and the average fight lasts 3-4 rounds, the difference between 55 and 80 hp is larger than between 105 and 160 hp.
I suspect its seriously not an issue as long as the DM baby sits the characters.
I get tired of people suggesting that they are more intelligent at playing a game because their experience differs from others.
For the first few levels that wizard can barely carry his own stuff, let alone pull himself out of a trap or similar situation that just springs up on you at low levels.
Players requiring the GM to babysit their characters have an unreasonable expectation. If you go in with a 7 in an ability score - or especially in half of the character's ability scores - acknowledge and accept the consequences of doing so. It's really that simple.
I'm not sure I agree higher HP for PC's is a boon to martials. They tend to be pretty tough regardless, so bonus hit points will do less for them than casters.
When opponents deal 30 dmg per round and the average fight lasts 3-4 rounds, the difference between 55 and 80 hp is larger than between 105 and 160 hp.
The higher fixed hp is more to guarantee that their higher HDs actually mean something. I've been in games with the exact opposite - roll for hp and no rerolls ever even if it's a 1. One game had the party sorceror with more hp than the party barbarian (out of rage, at least) - being more SAD than the Barb he could afford higher Con, and the Barb rolled abysmally for hp. I should also mention this was in D&D 3.5, where sorcerers had a d4 HD...
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If I were to run a game where the PCs had the Advanced template, I'd consider ruling that the class feature companions (animal companion, paladin/cavalier mount, familiar, eidolon) also have a version of the Advanced template (affecting everything but Int), to allow them to 'keep up' and remain relevant.
But summoned creatures and / or animated undead, etc. would likely not get this special bonus, unless the PC in question paid some sort of cost to upgrade them (such as a 'greater augment summons' feat or a variation on the 3.x Corpsecrafter feat, that allows a character to summon creatures or animate undead with the Advanced template).
I don't think I'd make any allowance for higher than normal point buy as a freebie. IMO, higher than normal point buy means that the PCs are legendary heroes, and if they are personally tougher than the sword fodder that they are summnoning, that's actually part of them being so badass in the first place. A hero of such stature should hardly be surprised that the creatures he calls up aren't similarly touched by whatever epic destiny (or Azlanti blood, etc.) has resulted in his own superior attributes.
Although, similar to the advanced template feat option, I might be open to a feat (with augment summons as a prereq) allowing someone with a 25 point buy being able to upgrade his summons by an additional 4 attribute points distributed as he wishes or something (perhaps even something allowing a person to use the evolutions mechanic to add some very specific evolutions to summoned creatures, such as the natural armor evolution, the improved damage evolution and the ability improvement evolution?).
I don't know from giving everyone the Advanced template (who DOES that?) but I've played Summoner in 25 point buy games, and my Eidolon was still a complete badass that made the party fighter unhappy about his life choices.
I don't know from giving everyone the Advanced template (who DOES that?) but I've played Summoner in 25 point buy games, and my Eidolon was still a complete badass that made the party fighter unhappy about his life choices.
It was part of a great many 'tests' conducted in my combined Cot/KM campaign. We also tested removing the 'caps' on spells, among other things.
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15 is the standard assumption of the game.
20 is the standard for PFS.Because of this, examples and discussions center around 15 to 20 point buy.
Even though many adventure paths are supposed to be played at 15 pt buy, from what I've observed in adventure paths, I've rarely seen that used. I think 20 point buy is the most common, 60%+ or so, followed by 25 point buy. Maybe something like 10% of the games are 15 pt games.
Therefore examples at that 15pt are somewhat unrealistic based on most peoples experience.
I don't know from giving everyone the Advanced template (who DOES that?) but I've played Summoner in 25 point buy games, and my Eidolon was still a complete badass that made the party fighter unhappy about his life choices.
Cool, at least we know your not playing some 5-10 point game.
In my mind I never change the monsters for to match the point buy i have given out because this!
10p = dead party and I must have wanted that because I gave them that.
15p = Party really challenged for people who like the hard combat that pushes optimizes Pc
20 = some hard fights but most we will win with 50% hp or more.
25 = I find is more for the RP players because combat is easy so they can win or fail buy RP but almost always win combat.
25 Point buy is a tool that can be used to break the game, if put in the hands of the right(wrong) players. And that will make summons worthless as anything but speedbumps, as the GM is forced to up the ante to make up for the ridiculous damage output.
If given to people who choose style over substance, it is harmless.
Kamelguru
I feel like that's what I said just put a different way so I agree : )
25 Point buy is a tool that can be used to break the game, if put in the hands of the right(wrong) players. And that will make summons worthless as anything but speedbumps, as the GM is forced to up the ante to make up for the ridiculous damage output.
If given to people who choose style over substance, it is harmless.
I've played in a bunch of 25 point buy PF games. At least as many games as those any other point buy amount combined. I tend to play with the dirty rotten evil optimizers you seem to dislike, and am one myself.
Nothing you say is true. 25 point buy breaks nothing, damage records are not being made just from a few more points to buy with, summons are still useful. Just...everything you said... is so incredibly not true...
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Ok, it seems like the advanced template is a big part of the issue here. If you apply the template first, it adds 5 points to each ability score, starting you at a base of 14 instead of 10. (Not to mention the extra two Natural Armor.)
If, however, you apply it after you have bought your abilities, it adds considerably more. The heroic array for NPC's is:
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. This is a 15-point buy, and certainly not an optimal one, but it serves as a comparison basis. If you apply the advanced template to that, you get:
19, 18, 17, 16, 14, 12. Note, this is illegal with the 19, but we are comparing. So, this would be the equivalent of a 68-point buy. Sure, this is going to overshadow creatures in the normal CR scheme of things. A 25-point buy? Not so much.
As was pointed out earlier, a few extra points doesn't strengthen the power of a SAD class; it merely covers up weaknesses. For a MAD class, it is considerably better, but still, we are only talking about a bonus of 1 or 2 in an area or two. 68 points? Or 55 points? You bet there's a power discrepancy.
Yep. As was already explained, Hexen is referring to a very long campaign that introduced the template half-way through as an experiment. (In this case, the experiment was: "how do you 'price' this in terms of XP cost to a PC?" The answer: "Not easily.")
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I suspect its seriously not an issue as long as the DM baby sits the characters.
I get tired of people suggesting that they are more intelligent at playing a game because their experience differs from others.
For the first few levels that wizard can barely carry his own stuff, let alone pull himself out of a trap or similar situation that just springs up on you at low levels.
Players requiring the GM to babysit their characters have an unreasonable expectation. If you go in with a 7 in an ability score - or especially in half of the character's ability scores - acknowledge and accept the consequences of doing so. It's really that simple.
That's actually the point I was trying to make to cold napalm. He was suggesting that he could pull off those kinds of builds because of his superior intelligence and skill at the game.
I was suggesting it had less to do with his skill than the GM baby sitting his caster.
In any AP where social settings are used (in a town or city say), the wizard with low wisdom, low charisma and low strength is a walking time bomb. He's a scrawny kid with aloud mouth and. No common sense who feels his superior intelligence needs to be shouted to the world and it would land him in trouble all the time.
I suspect players who build low stats like this don't play to their characteristics though. Many folk who claim to better players tend to do this in fact. They deliberately gimp areas for power in their preferred stats then use player knowledge and ability to overcome those situations where the characters stats would screw him.
If GM's are allowing that to happen, then they're baby sitting their players.
Cheers
Even though many adventure paths are supposed to be played at 15 pt buy, from what I've observed in adventure paths, I've rarely seen that used. I think 20 point buy is the most common, 60%+ or so, followed by 25 point buy. Maybe something like 10% of the games are 15 pt games.
Therefore examples at that 15pt are somewhat unrealistic based on most peoples experience.
That may be true in some regions, but I don't know if it's universally true. I've mostly seen 15 pb, with some 20 pb and once 10 pb. Never seen 25 pb.
But regardless, 15 pb is what the CR system and class balance is based upon (not that it necessarily works as designed, but w/e).
So far, all of the AP's we have run have been 25 pt buy except Skull and Shackles, which was 15 but we played a mini game before the AP started to get and extra bump to our prime stat and a random stat bump...which brought us to around 20-22 pt buy.
We have a gang of 5 players, all who are experienced and 2 who are VERY experienced.
My 5 players are CRUSHING RotRL and they are 1 level behind in XP (due to their being 5). And I rate how they are doing that as:
1. Very Cooperative Players. (They play as well as a freaking SWAT team)
2. 5 of them.
3. 25 point buy
Points 2 and 3 are interchangeable...as we have just played with 4 when one was out a couple of times.
25 point buy is a bump in power, plain and simple, to say otherwise just seems odd. You can create a good character with NO dump stats, or a AWESOME focused character with a dump or two...
WRT to Summoners in general. Same response as said before in other threads:
If the pet is crushing the martial classes, then make sure the build is legal. This has been the source of a lot of angst.
An experienced player who likes building things...is going to ROCK with this class, but is still not on par with the Wizard. (A close 2nd or 3rd maybe, but unless the game is NOT based upon the 15 min adventuring day...the Summoner runs out of spells fast)
In any AP where social settings are used (in a town or city say), the wizard with low wisdom, low charisma and low strength is a walking time bomb. He's a scrawny kid with aloud mouth and. No common sense who feels his superior intelligence needs to be shouted to the world and it would land him in trouble all the time.
I suspect players who build low stats like this don't play to their characteristics though. Many folk who claim to better players tend to do this in fact. They deliberately gimp areas for power in their preferred stats then use player knowledge and ability to overcome those situations where the characters stats would screw him.
If GM's are allowing that to happen, then they're baby sitting their players.
Cheers
if a concept offends you as the dungeon master, and you really don't want to deal with it, don't try to punish the Player IC, just say Veto the character and tell the player to make a few changes.
a 7 or few in reasonable stats is fine, such as for example, an anemic and scrawny bard i played who dumped strength and constitution down to 7. she was anemic and refused to drink milk nor eat liverwurst. so she was also short and highly physically underdeveloped for her age.