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Now, I get that it might seem a bit counter-productive to change the mind of the Big Boss of the entire campaign, but I would like to grab some ideas in case some great role-playing possibilities come my way. Has anyone dealt with Karzoug in a non-slaughter or seal up kind of way?
Thinking along the lines of the 'using Karzoug as an ally if Mhar wakes up' line of thought, has anyone encountered a situation where your PCs have actually let him go, or even tried to redeem him in some way (or perhaps make some sort of truce)?
Brainstorming here.
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Redemption can't be forced on someone. It must be sought. I don't really see Karzoug ashamed of or even regretting any of the things he's had to do, all the way from his humble beginnings to the plots he put into motion before he entered suspended animation. Death's really the only way to deal with him. He's already trapped in between realities, and I can't see any magic from this age really holding him for very long at all.
For all of this, his weakness is his arrogance. He really believes himself to be infallible, and has set so many long-range plans into motion that the defeat of a few pawns is inconsequential. The only things I can see as being worthy of Karzoug's full attention would be things on par with Mhar, but even then, he'd probably think that he would be the best person in the world to take care of it. Any alliance with him to defeat Mhar would probably end very badly for the PCs. He will use them to put down the spirit of the mountain, and then end them before they can become a threat to him again.
So yeah, I don't see any last minute conversions, no flash of insight showing him the error of his ways. He's is unredeemably evil, and the Claimer's tyrannical rule should not be allowed to return to Golarion if the PCs have anything to say about it!
I have to agree that Karzoug isn't really a candidate for redemption. He has no regrets and feels pretty comfortable with the horrible things he's done.
If you wanted to rewrite Karzoug to have a more redeemable air about him, who's to stop you?
But if you go with Karzoug as he's presented in the AP, yeah I'd go along with Misroi and wspatterson's take on the Claimer. He's on par with Palpatine in terms of chances of any kind of twist-ending-redemption. That being said, if the PCs are willing to be his complete and total slaves and perform any and all actions according to his will from now unto eternity? Yeah he'd probably treat with some Contract Devils to make everything nice and binding and then let the PCs live.
One of the main meta-plot issues to making Karzoug redeemable is that you take the teeth out of some of the villains throughout the AP. So what if they resurrect the guy? It'll all pretty much work itself out. -or- Now the PCs are taking on the role of sacrificing greedy souls in order to resurrect Karzoug...at which point...who's redeeming and who's falling here?
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I did not do this with Karzoug, but rather with Xanderghul. I made him more human, since I threw out a plotline that one of the PCs was the daughter of the Satrap of Cyrusian (Xanderghul), himself.
Karzoug is extremely intelligent, and so he might see the value of some diplomacy, though I would never see him truly redeemable. He is a schemer, and has literally killed to be in his position (unlike say, Sorshen or Xanderghul.)
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I think I was going more for a continuance of Karzoug and less him turning all nicey-nice. Redeeming was an interesting thing to think about, perhaps only to hear about anyone actually coming up with ideas on how to do it.
I personally really think the concept of Karzoug not being eradicated as slightly more interesting in a long-term AP arc then not, so I'm just thinking of interesting and believable situations where that might happen. He's really a fantastic villain. :) I agree that he should probably remain a villain, but those grey areas are great for stories...
There might be something to turning a few of his servants against him TwiceGreat. Or, perhaps the PCs supplant Karzoug with another Runelord of Greed (lesser of two evils type thing in return for some heavy handed advantage in the final show-down in the PCs favor). Or maybe one of their own attempts to become the new Runelord of Abundance.
I think there may be something to redeeming or working with the position Karzoug occupies, without having to do more than scoop his disintegrated dusty remains aside after a sweet battle ;-)
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Redeeming was an interesting thing to think about, perhaps only to hear about anyone actually coming up with ideas on how to do it.
Hmm...
Ok so, first of all, let me just say that I've never read much of Rise of the Runelords, so I don't have a great handle on Karzoug's personality aside him being evil (possibly even for a runelord, since he was consorting with things man was not meant to consort with), probably pretty arrogant, and... well... greedy.
I mean this is a guy who unashamedly devoted his existance to the sin of greed, and who would presumably do anything for power. And yet...
Karzoug was asleep for a long time. A really long time. An unimaginably long time. As the ruler of such a large domain, he was presumably linked into a huge network of contacts, allies, and rivals; he probably wan't ever a guy with a lot of friends, but I'm sure he had connections. Now not only is nearly everything he wrought during his former life in ruins, but everyone ever knew is gone. The whole society he knew is gone. As brilliant and egotistical as he may be, he's adrift in a world he couldn't possibly understand (yet), and I'd bet that, on some level, that scares him. And with that fear, perhaps, comes an ounce of doubt; especially if, on the eve of his big comeback, a bunch of bizarre people show up, kick down his door, and kill all his most powerful servants.
It's true that Karzoug chose what kind of person he wanted to be a long time ago, but that choice hardly matters anymore. Karzoug's personal sins have pretty much been erased by time; most people don't even remember his name. At this point, he could be anything or anyone that he wanted to be, or that he needed to be to survive
Karzoug's a smart guy; by the time the PCs are in his presence he may realize that he only really has two options remaining: he can either move on and try to make a new start, or he can take on this whole unknown world singlehandedly and almost certainly die. Now, making a new start doesn't mean he'll decide to become a paragon of goodness but... well... it's a start, I suppose.
No. Actually, he has a plan for that. That's the Leng Device. As far as he knows, he gets out, it's powered up, he opened a portal to the past and retrieves his army. Then he doesn't need anyone. He has an army and can conquer the region and be The Runelord.
Even if the PCs drive off the Leng, that doesn't destroy the device. So he will assume he can power it back up and do just what he has planned.
So there is no real redemption for him. He feels no love for anyone. All he wants is power and wealth unimaginable. If he gets free, that's what he's going to go for.
And once he has New Thassilon built, he'll do everything in his power to ensure the other six Runelords are never able to come back. Which means waging war in the region, causing untold deaths. And after that? Hey, why not continue and conquer the world? It's not like Azlant is around any longer. The only ancient power left is the elves, and they're lessened too.
while this is not the idea of redemption I created an alternate timeline for the runelords you might find interesting.
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That was pretty entertaining Zergtitan. It would be interesting to run that scenario, have the PCs right the timeline, and then encounter the normal, evil runelords afterwards as a kind of 'you can't change fate' kind of thing.
With the exception of Tangents point about the Leng device, I think that's a cool thought about Karzoug being a bit lost in the new age - of course, his humanity is pretty tattered up, and in reality he's on the verge of being a Lovecraftian horror himself.
If Karzoug manages to escape utter destruction at the hands of my PCs, I am strongly thinking of having a planar backlash occur as the Eye of Avarice begins to crumble, in addition to the Leng Device being destroyed (or activated) - sending the PCs and Karzoug randomly to different planes or places or maybe even times. That happens, I may drop Karzoug in Leng itself, where he can pop up in Episode 5 of Shattered Star for a nice cameo - or more, depending.
This might sound a little Care Bears-y, but hear me out.
What if the Runelords' shift from virtue to sin was not a simple matter of psychology? What if they began as genuine avatars of Thassilon's magically-aligned virtues, but something caused them to change in such a way that would actually be reflected by their statistics. Maybe the empire's corruption caused its leaders to follow suit, or the aboleths cast some manner of curse upon the wizards to corrupt them from within. Maybe there is some way, either deceptively simple or near-impossible, to reverse this effect and make his return a boon to the world rather than a disaster.
Granted, Wealth isn't really that much better than Greed, but one more avaricious but non-evil wizard king in the world wouldn't be too bad; if he decides to turn his resources towards trade, there could be significant but mixed impact on the region. If you go all the way and make him the new Runelord of Generousity, that's a very interesting path to explore. Just think, an extremely powerful transmutation specialist who lives for the betterment of others!
No. No, they were rotten to the core.
No. No, they were rotten to the core.
** spoiler omitted **
Well that can be changed, is all I'm saying. DM gets retcon powers, especially with stuff the players don't already know about.
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As an personal opinion, if you put the main mastermind to be redeemable person it feels kind of that it kills the entire adventure at the end. PC's get to participate in battle with him and this is really unique battle and while PF doesn't necessary resolve completely around combat, I would say it's 60% of the game but varies with groups of players.
Karzoug also is an old old wizard. I would say chances are in general none to convince him that what he did was wrong, but making an alliance with him might be possible. In fact, several of his servants already offered that to PC's in earlier books.
You are of course GM and can do what you please. Most important part is if your players will like it.
What's wrong with a bad guy just being a bad guy? There are a lot of threads about redeeming this or that, including redeeming a devil (or was it a demon?), which is the actual embodiement of some kind of evil.
I'm all for adding layers to your game, but sometimes and evil guy is just and evil guy and he likes it that way.
I think it started with the whole "redeeming Orik" bit which cascaded to "redeeming Nualia" and then next thing you know half the cliffside gave way and people are filming it. ^^;;
How is redeeming Nualia so far-fetched? She is an Aasimar, part of her very soul is infused with celestial influence.
Just because something is celestial does not mean it cannot fall... or not be redeemable. With Nualia... there is a lot that would need to be done to start down the path of redemption. But really the big thing is this: does Nualia want to be redeemed? No. She doesn't. She hates Sandpoint. She wants to raze it to the ground and glorify in Lamashtu while doing so. And even if you point out she was manipulated by Lamashtu I very much doubt she'd care.
Literally the best excuse I ever saw for someone redeeming her was having her end up in the Misborn... having been driven insane by the haunts within... and meeting a character whose background had him actually show her kindness and try to not just want something from her (be it blessings or whathaveyou). In short... they BROKE her and drove her insane. In my view, death might have been a mercy in comparison.
If Ragathiel could become an Empyreal Lord despite being the son of Dispater, I sure as hell can believe Nualia, who was born of a celestial but turned Evil, can be redeemed. Insanity can be cured, and I'm sick of the cynical / pessimistic attitude some people take with their campaigns when it comes to situations like this. I might as well stop caring about ANY NPC if the DM just decides "Nope, no redeeming anything ever. They'll just backstab the PCs or die before they can get through" which in turn makes the world more dull and static.
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If Ragathiel could become an Empyreal Lord despite being the son of Dispater, I sure as hell can believe Nualia, who was born of a celestial but turned Evil, can be redeemed. Insanity can be cured, and I'm sick of the cynical / pessimistic attitude some people take with their campaigns when it comes to situations like this. I might as well stop caring about ANY NPC if the DM just decides "Nope, no redeeming anything ever. They'll just backstab the PCs or die before they can get through" which in turn makes the world more dull and static.
To be fair I'm a pretty big fan of redemption (Had a shatterd star campaign where by the end the party had recruited Gang members former soldiers of a deposed despot and even a trio of Drow) but even I find Naulia to be a bit far fetched.
Guess it's a "Your Mileage Might Vary" thing.
Anyone can be redeemed. But the person must WANT redemption. Without that desire for redemption, it is not possible. Nualia's information does not provide any hint that she wants redemption. If anything, she seeks damnation with an intense passion. She WANTS to Fall.
Now, it's your game, you can change things if you want. But unless your PCs created a nice gaming hook (like the one who was friends of sorts with Nualia) then having her redeemed just makes no sense.
Not everyone can be saved. Sometimes... sparrows fall despite the efforts of those who try to save them.
You summon Cthulhu and tell Mhar that unless they work together to take out the Big C, Mhar won't have anyplace to call home. :P
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I personally think Karzoug can be redeemed. Keep in mind that I doubt that he could ever become a good person, but I believe that he could be possibly turned from Neutral Evil to true Neutral.
First, let us quickly discuss Karzoug's psychology and what led him to becoming the Runelord of Greed. Keep in mind that this is my reading of him, so your mileage may vary. Karzoug was born and raised as a slave in a brutal and hellish environment. From the beginning of his life, he never owned anything, including his own person. He was used terribly, and perhaps even sexually abused. He had to struggle and fight for every meal.
Everything that he ever had, whether it was his daily food, his apprenticeship, his position of Runelord, he had to take with his own two hands, always at the expense of someone else. He was not raised to believe in honest hard work leading to reward, because he knew that hard work and honesty led to being worked to death on some other Runelord's monument or dying in war and then being tossed into a mass grave in the end. And most of the slaves around him knew the same thing, and he was constantly struggling to rise over them only so he wouldn't fall to the bottom of the heap and be crushed.
Karzoug from the time he was a small child knew that wealth equaled freedom and power. Thus, the only way Karzoug saw to ensure his safety would be to amass greater wealth than any of the Runelords. Even when he was one of the most powerful of the Runelords, he always retained the paranoia that he gained in the slave pits: that someone was always trying to take what he had.
In short, no one has ever done anything for him without being forced to or wanting something in return. Karzoug has never known a moment of true kindness, or love. To him, these were always commodities. If you wanted affection, you paid a prostitute or courtesan. If you wanted respect, you put on ostentatious displays of wealth or frightening displays of power so that people would bow and scrape to your desires. Nothing was ever given to him freely, and he expected nothing to be given freely. Any kindness that anyone shows to him, Karzoug's first instinct would be to ask "What's your angle?"
In the Rise of the Runelords AP, Karzoug doesn't see the players as a band of heroes united in stopping the resurrection of a tyrannical empire. What he sees are a group of powerful adventurers who have come to Xin Shalast to loot the treasure troves of his empire that he had spent centuries building. He cannot help but project his twisted psychology onto everybody else: "These people who like to say that they're heroes are only here to kill me and take my treasures so that they can live like kings! Pah, why do people lie to themselves like this?"
What would floor Karzoug would be someone who shows him true kindness and decency without overtly or subtly asking for anything in return. It probably would not melt his heart at the beginning, but it would leave him rather perturbed and confused. That isn't the whole redemption story, of course, but it would provide a wedge in which self-doubt might enter. That there is true love and kindness in the world that people give freely to one another...something that his wealth could never truly buy.
Karzoug will forever be a greedy person. But the greedy want nothing more than what they do not (or cannot) have. And just as he was greedy for wealth, he may become greedy instead for true affection.
Just a thought.
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An interesting thought, Louis, and probably the most well-reasoned approach to making Karzoug a sympathetic villain. It builds upon Karzoug's history as presented to us, and is probably how he views pretty much every social interaction. Every moment is spent plotting on how to gain more power, and every conversation with underlings is a means to that end.
I still disagree that he can turn away from the path he's on, though. He crossed that Moral Event Horizon so long ago that he's entered the Moral Black Hole and quite possibly ended up in a Moral Alternate Universe. Thassilon was an evil, evil empire, and anyone who becomes Runelord has done more than enough damnable acts. As I said before, redemption cannot be forced upon someone; they have to show remorse for what they've done, and want to be redeemed. The best I could see would be that he sees the error of his ways, but realizes there's no way he can atone for the horrors he'd performed. (I imagine that Thassilonian transmuters performed all sorts of horrifying fleshcrafting that their amoral minds could imagine.) As a result, he kills himself, ending his cursed existence and sparing Golarion from the return of a Runelord.
This all assumes he doesn't acknowledge that there are charitable people out there. He's a super-genius, so he probably does. He probably has a name for those people: fools. Greed is a tangible force for him, one that he uses to give his magic greater power. Anyone who actually aspires to a virtuous life is willfully denying the measurable power of the sins.
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An interesting thought, Louis, and probably the most well-reasoned approach to making Karzoug a sympathetic villain. It builds upon Karzoug's history as presented to us, and is probably how he views pretty much every social interaction. Every moment is spent plotting on how to gain more power, and every conversation with underlings is a means to that end.
I still disagree that he can turn away from the path he's on, though. He crossed that Moral Event Horizon so long ago that he's entered the Moral Black Hole and quite possibly ended up in a Moral Alternate Universe. Thassilon was an evil, evil empire, and anyone who becomes Runelord has done more than enough damnable acts. As I said before, redemption cannot be forced upon someone; they have to show remorse for what they've done, and want to be redeemed. The best I could see would be that he sees the error of his ways, but realizes there's no way he can atone for the horrors he'd performed. (I imagine that Thassilonian transmuters performed all sorts of horrifying fleshcrafting that their amoral minds could imagine.) As a result, he kills himself, ending his cursed existence and sparing Golarion from the return of a Runelord.
That is pretty much how I saw any path of redemption for Karzoug leading to as well: his own demise.
I was actually interested myself in running a Rise of the Runelords campaign in which Karzoug finds redemption but the guilt of what he has done becomes so overwhelming that he goes insane. Unfortunately, after reading Karzoug's own stats I found out that he was immune to mind altering effects. He cannot block out, compartmentalize or forget what he has done in a fit of amnesia brought by mental breakdown. Every horror and every atrocity that he has ever committed is crystalized in his memory as perfectly as it was the moment he performed it, and he does not even have the respite of insanity or dementia to keep him from remembering.
If Karzoug regained any ounce of his stunted humanity, he would probably end up destroying himself simply to stop the pain of the memories from haunting him.
This all assumes he doesn't acknowledge that there are charitable people out there. He's a super-genius, so he probably does. He probably has a name for those people: fools. Greed is a tangible force for him, one that he uses to give his magic greater power. Anyone who actually aspires to a virtuous life is willfully denying the measurable power of the sins.
Pretty much. Or perhaps he would have thought they were only doing good works to increase their own renown and to fool the masses that someone actually cared about them. But I think he would find someone who does good things when no one is looking to be practically incomprehensible.