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Yeesh... this seems like it would be a great feat for a Zen Archer, but who in their right mind is going to spend 2 feats on pre-requisites that are literally worthless in and of themselves?
Snap Shot is a pre-req for Improved Snap Shot, but does absolutely nothing for a Zen Archer that isn't already granted by Point-Blank Master (bonus at 3rd) and Reflexive Shot (class feature at 9th).
Rapid Shot (and Manyshot) are asinine feats for a Zen Archer to take, even if they're available as bonus feats. Rapid Shot has the same mechanical effect as the Zen Archer's Flurry of Blows (pre-8th level, extra attack, all attacks take a -2 to hit), and Manyshot is like Flurry of Blows at 8th-15th, with the added flexibility of giving up the extra attack to negate the -2 attack penalty, and the trade-off that your additional attack can't inflict sneak attack or critical hit damage (because so many Zen Archers are frequently dealing that sort of damage anyway).
Is there any logical reason to not hand-wave this away by removing Rapid Shot and Manyshot from the Zen Archer's list of bonus feats options at 1st and 6th level, and including Improved Snap Shot among the 10th level+ options?
Yeesh... this seems like it would be a great feat for a Zen Archer, but who in their right mind is going to spend 2 feats on pre-requisites that are literally worthless in and of themselves?
Snap Shot is a pre-req for Improved Snap Shot, but does absolutely nothing for a Zen Archer that isn't already granted by Point-Blank Master (bonus at 3rd) and Reflexive Shot (class feature at 9th).
Rapid Shot (and Manyshot) are asinine feats for a Zen Archer to take, even if they're available as bonus feats. Rapid Shot has the same mechanical effect as the Zen Archer's Flurry of Blows (pre-8th level, extra attack, all attacks take a -2 to hit), and Manyshot is like Flurry of Blows at 8th-15th, with the added flexibility of giving up the extra attack to negate the -2 attack penalty, and the trade-off that your additional attack can't inflict sneak attack or critical hit damage (because so many Zen Archers are frequently dealing that sort of damage anyway).
Is there any logical reason to not hand-wave this away by removing Rapid Shot and Manyshot from the Zen Archer's list of bonus feats options at 1st and 6th level, and including Improved Snap Shot among the 10th level+ options?
This isn't really a rules question and is probably more appropriate in the suggestions/house rules or advice forum.
There is no logical reason to not hand wave the feat requirements from Improved Snap Shot... hell, you should be able to sub. Zen Archer 9 for the BAB requirement (otherwise Zen Archer still gets it late, which is still asinine).
Fix: Improved Snap Shot has normal pre-reqs OR Reflexive Shot class feature.
Don't expect paizo to ever make such a fix, though.
These set of feats really pissed me off. They took what was a Zen Archer unique feature, gave it out to anyone, and let them get it at an earlier level (if a full BAB class) and NOT have to literally waste feats to get the 15 ft threat range feat. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a massive slap in the face in d20 rules systems before.
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This isn't really a rules question and is probably more appropriate in the suggestions/house rules or advice forum.Yeesh... this seems like it would be a great feat for a Zen Archer, but who in their right mind is going to spend 2 feats on pre-requisites that are literally worthless in and of themselves?
Snap Shot is a pre-req for Improved Snap Shot, but does absolutely nothing for a Zen Archer that isn't already granted by Point-Blank Master (bonus at 3rd) and Reflexive Shot (class feature at 9th).
Rapid Shot (and Manyshot) are asinine feats for a Zen Archer to take, even if they're available as bonus feats. Rapid Shot has the same mechanical effect as the Zen Archer's Flurry of Blows (pre-8th level, extra attack, all attacks take a -2 to hit), and Manyshot is like Flurry of Blows at 8th-15th, with the added flexibility of giving up the extra attack to negate the -2 attack penalty, and the trade-off that your additional attack can't inflict sneak attack or critical hit damage (because so many Zen Archers are frequently dealing that sort of damage anyway).
Is there any logical reason to not hand-wave this away by removing Rapid Shot and Manyshot from the Zen Archer's list of bonus feats options at 1st and 6th level, and including Improved Snap Shot among the 10th level+ options?
I thought perhaps I was misunderstanding the mechanics behind these feats and the Zen Archer archetype, which might invalidate the suggestion. If the rules function the way I've been reading them, then yes, I suppose this topic would be a good fit for the house rules section. Figured it would be good to get the "legal" review first.
The rules work the way you've read. Just because an archtype gives certain shortcuts to certain abilities doesn't mean it is supposed to be the 'default' choice to gain access to them. Part of the PFRPG redesign was getting avoiding a 'best' choice. Giving access to all feats in this chain 'early' would make the zen archer the 'default' choice in such cases. And they don't want that to happen.
Zen Archer doesn't get Reflexive Shot until full BAB classes can get Imp. Snap Shot. This isn't to make Zen Archer the best choice... it's to make it not the BLATANTLY WORST choice.
For, again, an ability that was originally a unique class feature!
How would you feel if a feat or pair of feats came out that granted a Weapon Training progression based on the user's *caster level* and a progression which tracked more quickly than the fighter's own weapon training? How fair would you find that to be?
There is a feat for Zen Archery for clerics, it's called Guided Hand, and to apply to bows you have to worship the bow god, whatever his name was. That also sucks, and I am upset about that as well.
Ultimate Warrior gave away a bunch of Zen Archer class features, sadly.
I still don't know why the zen archer has to be inferior to every other full BAB class at his own class feature, though.
Zen Archer doesn't get Reflexive Shot until full BAB classes can get Imp. Snap Shot. This isn't to make Zen Archer the best choice... it's to make it not the BLATANTLY WORST choice.
For, again, an ability that was originally a unique class feature!
How would you feel if a feat or pair of feats came out that granted a Weapon Training progression based on the user's *caster level* and a progression which tracked more quickly than the fighter's own weapon training? How fair would you find that to be?
Except the zen archer gets to 1) increase his damage dice and 2) use unarmed damage as bow damage. I don't see why this feat chain makes them the worst choice all of the sudden.
Umm... are 1 and 2 both referring to Ki Arrow? You realize that's a horrible ability, right? Even without gravity bow, it doesn't surpass normal arrow damage until like 12th level, and costs ki and your swift to use, instead of making an extra attack or whatever else you want to use ki for.
And I wasn't talking about archery in general. I mean Zen Archer is worse than every full BAB class as a choice for a Combat Reflexes archer build. Even though until UC, they were the only choice.
Tbh, I don't see how it makes them irrelevant or even worse at it. They get Point Blank Master very very early, which already means they get something only other fighters (or ways to count as a fighter) get. Actually, that means unless the class gives you a way of getting Point Blank Master outside of Fighter, the only class that compares to Zen Archer is the fighter, because every other martial class would be taking a huge risk using that feat chain. It would be like a caster not casting defensively in CQC.
So again, I fail to see how every other martial class is suddenly better than the Zen Archer. Even if it's at this particular thing. Sure you don't do as much damage or have as much threatened area. But you, by default, are safer when doing your job.
