I was wondering, with all the new books we have, who is actually capable of doing two weapon fighting effectively?
Thank you,
-Hexen
|
The first class that pops into my mind is the Fighter, who gets enough feats to be able to do it efficiently first. After that, the Ranger because he can ignore many of the prereq feats because of his fighting style. Otherwise, anyone can do it so long as you grab the feats. I'd love to do a Two Weapon Cavalier, but I haven't had a lot of time recently.
EDIT: Ninja'd by a better post. Dang.
Really, The only classes that can't are the classes not specifically meant for melee. Clerics have the buffer spells to do this, even with simple weapons. Oracles can do better, because of the Battle mystery.
I feel like the challenge ability being what it is cavaliers are about as vialbe as paladins. The only big issue is the dex requirement since dex isn't traditionaly a stat the cavalier has much interest in. Still neither does a paladin.
- Torger
Fighter
Ranger
Cavalier
Samurai
Paladin
Rogue
In that order. Wouldn't bother with other classes
I've always wanted to play a TWF barbarian who drives towards Greater Beast Totem, but without a really generous stat-buy, the dex requirements for the feats is a bit steep. :(
I have been toying with a TWF build that uses a 2hw and unarmed strike with dragon style for 1.5 dmg to both attacks. It obviously requires a monk dip to make the US viable, but fighter seems to give you the feats and static damage to pull that off.
I would second either Ranger through style or straight fighter with feats every lvl and weapon training.
|
Any one with 6 levels of ranger, and Dex 15. This gives you Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Double Slice. That's all you really need to be effective at two weapon fighting. The other irrelevant attacks are just that because your bonus to his with the 3rd attack chances of hitting are low.
The other option is rogue. Even if you make a Dex base rogue you can still do enough damage due to sneak attack. The down side is you really on sneak attack to do any real damage.
Most other classes make pore choices for two weapon fighting. As needing a Dex 17 for improved two weapon fighting. Makes it hard to find the points for Dex, Str, and Con.
Two Weapon Rend is one of the bigger feats in my book for the style, more than GTWF. Doing 1d10 + 1.5str significantly better than getting an extra .5 str on each off-hand attack, but it takes Ranger 10 to get it.
Note that if you use a double weapon, or the same weapon inbothhands, you can get more uses out of feats like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization,which helps with the feat costs a little bit.
|
Fighter is the best bet in my book because of all the feats. The following is a TWF character i worked on a while a go that is deceent in my opinion.
Human
Fighter (Weapon Master Scimitar)
-Stats-
STR 14 (+4 Leveling)(+6 Magic item) = 24
DEX 17 (+2 Racial)(+1 Leveling) = 20
CON 11
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 07
-Feats-
01 Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus Scimitar
02 Combat Expertise
03 Power Attack
04 Weapon Specialization Scimitar
05 Improved Sunder
06 Greater Sunder
07 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
08 Improved Critical
09 Critical Focus
10 Shield Slam
11 Shield Master
12 Bashing Finish
13 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
14 Sundering Strike
15 Tiring Critical
16 Exhausting Critical
17 Sickening Critical
18 Critical Mastery
19 Greater Weapon Focus Scimitar
20 Greater Weapon Specialization Scimitar
-Method-
Use a Heavy Spiked Shield enchanted with +4 for defense and enchanted with Bashing, Holy, and Speed for offense so when u are shield bashing ur shield counts as a +5 holy weapon that does 1d10+str that also does not take the two-weapon fighting penalty and keeping shield bonus to AC. When ever u score a crit with ur Scimitar, on a 15-20 dice roll, u get a free shield bash and sunder while also giving the target the Exhausted and Sickened condition. Scimitar should also be enchanted with Speed to give u 5 attempts to get a free shield bash on those crits. If ur lucky u can get 14 attacks in a single round.
IMO, the Two Weapon Warrior archetype is the best for this by virtue of getting all the attacks ever(2 AoO's, 2 Attacks for standards, Attacks Provoke Attacks) in addition to bonuses for TWF and being about to use 2 one handed weapons instead of just light.
Otherwise, Rangers are good cause they ignore pre-reqs. Cavaliers are good too, with the right Order; but I feel that they mostly are geared towards too much(teamwork feats, mounts, etc) to be great at TWF.
Monks are okay. cause you can TWF with just one weapon(less waste on weapons); but you don't get a flat bonus to damage.
|
IMO, the Two Weapon Warrior archetype is the best for this by virtue of getting all the attacks ever(2 AoO's, 2 Attacks for standards, Attacks Provoke Attacks) in addition to bonuses for TWF and being about to use 2 one handed weapons instead of just light.
Otherwise, Rangers are good cause they ignore pre-reqs. Cavaliers are good too, with the right Order; but I feel that they mostly are geared towards too much(teamwork feats, mounts, etc) to be great at TWF.
Monks are okay. cause you can TWF with just one weapon; but you don't get a bonus to damage.
Sohei with two temple swords. Gets access to weapon training at level 6.
Use a polearm or bow as your backup weapon, you'll eventually be able to flurry with them as well.
Sohei with two temple swords. Gets access to weapon training at level 6.
True, the Sohei are nice and I forgot they give a damage buff. However, I wouldn't buy 2 Temple Swords when I only need 1. In case you missed a recent FAQ, Monks and TWF with only 1 weapon, so that's more gold for other things. Like a more powerful temple sword lol.
|
|
Let's go with our HUMAN Barbarian
Let's start with a 20 Point Buy
STR 16 (14+2); DEX 15 , CON 15, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 7
LEVEL 1
FEATS: TWF, Double Slice
LEVEL 2
RAGE POWER SUPERSTITIOUS
LEVEL 3
FEATS WF Kukri
LEVEL 4
RAGE POWER Lesser Beast Totem
+1 CON
Level 5
FEAT Raging Vitality
Belt of Physical Might +2 STR and DEX
LEVEL 6
RAGE POWER Beast Totem
2x +1 Kukri
LEVEL 7
FEAT Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
LEVEL 8
RAGE POWER Reckless Abandon
+ 1 STR
2x +1 Furious Kukri
LEVEL 9
FEAT Improved Crit Kukri
LEVEL 10
RAGE POWER Greater Beast Totem
Belt of Physical Might Upgrade +4 STR and DEX
LEVEL 11
FEAT Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Rhino Hide Armor
Level 12
RAGE POWER Swift
Boots of Speed
+1 STR
LEVEL 13
FEAT Power Attack
2x +2 Furious Courageous Kukri
Sash of the War Champion
Ring of Protection +1
LEVEL 14
RAGE POWER Swift
Ring of Protection +5
So At 14, we have a movement speed of 40 while raging.
AC RAGE 25, 21, 13 (when using reckless abandon when not, add +4 to all AC)
SAVES (RAGE) 21, 13, 12
Pouncing Kukri +29/+24/+19/+29/+24/+19 DAM (2d6+1d4 + 22) 15-20 Crit Range x2
Pouncing Hasted +30/+30/+25/+20/+30/+25/+20 DAM (2d6+1d4 + 22) 15-20 Crit Range x2
So you've got a 25% chance on each of your 6 (7 if you're hasting) critting which gives you 4d6+2d4+44 Damage
Take Hermean Paragon and Reactionary and you've got a +4 to initiative, for a total of +8 by the time you're done, you can buy the ioun stone for 500g, getting a +9, take improved initiative at 15 for +13 and you're going first a lot, pouncing and killing things.
I was wondering, with all the new books we have, who is actually capable of doing two weapon fighting effectively?
Thank you,
-Hexen
Best two-weapon fighter I've ever seen is a Human 1st level Master of Many Styles / 19th level Brawler one of our players built. He's a flat-out damage machine and has some very nice tricks up his sleeve as well.
Magic items dont qualify you to take feats do they? Just curious.
If they do, can I drink a potion of Bull's strength when I level up, and then when it wears off, lose the power of the feat, but have the ability to be buffed and then my feat kicks in?
Seems weird. I assumed you need to have the stats innately.
I have to say, (personal opinion), that's pretty silly. Again, just my opinion.
What happens if you stop wearing the item for a day? Do you lose the feat? Or does it become inert for a day until you wear the item alone?
What happens if you found a helm of opposite alignment. Could your chaotic neutral character take monk levels?
What if they ever made a magic item that let you cast a level 3 spell once a day? Would that let you qualify for eldritch knight?
Or is it just feats?
Anyway, I certainly would house rule that out if I ran a game just because to me, its non-nonsensical. Fortunately, I dont, and none of you are in my non-existent game. :) So we can just agree to disagree.
Well if an item said "that the wearer can *cast*" then it'd count, I'd imagine.
Anyway, its a rules question I dont even want to think about. But I would appreciate a reference to the rule about the permanent magic item qualification stuff. Just so I can know what I'm house ruling. :)
Thanks!
Best two-weapon fighter I've ever seen is a Human 1st level Master of Many Styles / 19th level Brawler one of our players built. He's a flat-out damage machine and has some very nice tricks up his sleeve as well.I was wondering, with all the new books we have, who is actually capable of doing two weapon fighting effectively?
Thank you,
-Hexen
I'll second the brawler archetype as the best at TWF. Unlike vanilla fighter and most archetypes, it trades in the usual weapon training to give extra bonuses solely to close combat weapons (unarmed strikes, brassknuckles, shields). By level 19, it gets a +5 bonus to hit and +7 bonus to damage on every strike. Even a three level dip (another alteration to weapon training) will net you a +1 to hit and +3 to damage. With that, one can easily make up the disadvantage on damage for using a dex build. Use unarmed strikes or a pair of brass knuckles/cestus and you can build that up further with weapon focus/specialization/etc.
A monk 1/ranger X does deserve a mention though. Since rangers do not need to meet the prerequisites, they can go with a straight strength build. Since monks' unarmed strikes are never 'offhand,' they always get the full strength bonus. That extra x.5 Str will only be noticeable if you have a lot of strength. But as Calagnar mentioned, you only really need ranger 6 to get most of the good stuff. So monk 1/ranger 6/fighter(brawler) 14 would be downright dangerous.
|
There is no item like you describe.
You will notice the "Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours" line in magic items that increase an ability score.
You will notice on page 555 of the Core Rulebook:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be
noted separately in case they are removed.
|
I'm a little sad that monks aren't being considered here, except for dipping. Does Flurry of Blows not count as TWF? Or is it because the boards don't really consider the monk to be any good at anything but Zen Archery?
I'm not sure if Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training are enough of a bonus to make Fighters good at it, but all the extra bonus feats mean a Fighter can certainly pick up all the feats and still have enough left over for Bleeding Critical if he wants it.
Cavaliers should be able to pull it off (and contrary to what has been said earlier, they do need DEX because that's what Ride is off of), as should rogues, ninjas, and paladins. Lack of bonus feats hurts in this case (though a rogue/ninja can get at least one bonus feat through a rogue talent) but a significantly large damage bonus can overcome it.
Even a vanilla fighter gets static bonuses to damage though. Weapon training gets them a +1 to hit and +1 to damage for a specific weapon group at level 5, and while they add other weapon groups later, their earlier weapon groups still get a larger bonus each time. So in the end the first weapon group gets +5, the second gets +4....etc... The weapon specialization feats are just another dimension of how they can improve on this. Together, they make a +9 to damage on every attack for a vanilla fighter. So they would make great TWF users, especially with all their feats. Unless a ranger has specialized in only a couple enemy types for favored enemy and the campaign has no other types of opponents, then fighters would likely do better on average (excluding the possibility for instant enemy). A high level rogue might be able to do better, but only if they are good enough at tactics to consistently pull off sneak attacks safely.
I know it is a bit disappointing monks only get included for dips, and usually the archetypes that get rid of flurry. Flurry is just a bit weird. If one goes with a Dex build, you will honestly not see too much difference in AC compared to say a rogue or fighter using TWF since they can only use light armors or risk nerfing the stat they get this their bonus to hit from. If it is a strength build, then it will sadly have a lot less AC than a comparable ranger. The funny thing is that the very mechanics that allow flurry to be competitive (no off hand unarmed strikes and damage on par with the short sword, one of the most common TWF weapons) make it excellent for other classes to dip since it has to be frontloaded.
|
|
If you disallow items allowing you to qualify for feats you also need to reduce the stat prerequisites because they're set with the assumption that you will have a stat belt.
Ive always disallowed it in my games and dont decrease stats needed for feats. All the builds i make are with the intention of no magic equipment to qualify for a feat and i do it easily. Also with that said i only allowed it once for my players then through them into an area that suppresses all magic making them perma suck since they relied to heavily on stat items to qualify for feats. If the target's items are hit with dispell magic then they will lose the feat since they no longer qualify for it. Its incredibly easy to qualify for feats through pure leveling as log as u dont mid/max the character to special snowflake status like most do.
|
|
Psion-Psycho:
That's a lot assumptions! Your houserule hurts MAD classes like Monks.
This means the Min/Max is required to get what they want.
You create what you believe you are destroying.
Ive built characters many times in many editions of this game with out using magical equipment to qualify for its feats and i know many others that have done the same from my years of play. MAD classes like monk are still very doable to create with my houserule that ive used since 2e and actually makes the game quite playable to high end. After all i go by the carnal rule of what ever u can do so can the DM. I impose all the rules on my self as i do my players. If a player can do it so can i and the same goes around. Also monks are not as weak as most proclaim ive accidentally wiped a party of 6 good players with 3 decently designed monks that were only 1 single level higher than the party. Also said monks were undergeared as well since i allow my players to strip the enemy and there bases to the core if they have the appropriate means to do so.
Best two-weapon fighter I've ever seen is a Human 1st level Master of Many Styles / 19th level Brawler one of our players built. He's a flat-out damage machine and has some very nice tricks up his sleeve as well.I was wondering, with all the new books we have, who is actually capable of doing two weapon fighting effectively?
Thank you,
-Hexen
Did that with an unarmed fighter. Unstoppable creature.