Magus + Chill Touch + Spell Strike = ?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

How exactly does this work out? Do I get one attack with the sword, and everything else about the spell blips.. or Do I attack every creature 'touched' by the spell?


Chill touch works for a number of touches equal to level. If you're level 3, you could hit an enemy three times with it through your sword.

Keep in mind, however, that you only get a single "free touch" when you cast the spell, so this would have to be over multiple rounds.


Ævux wrote:
How exactly does this work out? Do I get one attack with the sword, and everything else about the spell blips.. or Do I attack every creature 'touched' by the spell?

When you cast a touch spell, (A spell with a range of "touch") the spell grants you a touch attack as a free action any time that turn.

Spellstrike lets you deliver that spell with a weapon attack, rather than a touch.

Chill Touch grants multiple touches. How that works depends on who you ask.

Most of us consider it to work just like every other touch spell, following the rules for holding the charge and so forth, just that you can 'use' it a certain number of times before the spell expires.

Some folks, including James Jacobs, think that as soon as you use the spell the first time, it stops being a touch spell, and converts to a touch attack. This means it doesn't follow the holding the charge rules, and doesn't dissipate if you cast another spell, and can't be discharged accidentally.

To get a response to this issue, we flagged this post with FAQ requests, but it was marked "Answered in the FAQ." It has not, to my knowledge, been answered in the FAQ. I don't know if this means the rules team has no intention of answering it, or they plan to answer it eventually, or if the person flagging things didn't understand the question and thought it applied to something else.

In any case, regardless of how the spell works, we have a post by JB implying that it works with Spellstrike multiple times per round. So basically once you've cast the spell, you can choose to deliver it with any weapon attack you make until the spell is used up. You must still be able to make the attack, it doesn't grant you any actions or attacks other than the one single free-action attack during the turn in which the spell was cast.


So could you cast Chill Touch and discharge one, then next round cast Frostbite and discharge both Frosbite and Chill Touch?

Liberty's Edge

I believe that the spellstrike part only applies when you cast the spell and are holding the charge on it. Once you spellstrike and hit, you discharge the first (free) Chill Touch attack. The following Chill Touch attacks, not being part of the "casting a spell" action, nor of the "holding the charge" rule, do not benefit from spellstrike. You can still make them as melee touch attacks with your free hand, as would a wizard.

Thus, you could cast Chill Touch and discharge it through spellstrike, attack with your free hand and discharge Chill Touch again as a melee touch attack, the next round cast Frostbite and discharge it with spellstrike and discharge Chill Touch for the third time using your free hand (again as a melee touch attack).


Desidero wrote:
So could you cast Chill Touch and discharge one, then next round cast Frostbite and discharge both Frosbite and Chill Touch?

According to the book, no. After your first turn you hold the charge of chill touch. Once you cast any spell, the held charge dissipates.

According to the other interpretation, yes. Since it ceases to function as a touch spell, you're not holding the charge, so it doesn't dissipate when you cast another spell and you can't accidentally discharge it. You can then do the same with Frostbite. Then cast elemental touch. Then cast Shocking Grasp and deliver all four effects with one touch.

The black raven wrote:
I believe that the spellstrike part only applies when you cast the spell and are holding the charge on it.

Those two things are mutually exclusive. You only hold the charge after the turn in which you cast the spell.

The black raven wrote:
Once you spellstrike and hit, you discharge the first (free) Chill Touch attack. The following Chill Touch attacks, not being part of the "casting a spell" action, nor of the "holding the charge" rule, do not benefit from spellstrike.

The free attack granted by casting a touch spell is a separate action.

Standard action: cast spell
Move action: whatever
Swift action: whatever
Free action: make touch attack (or weapon attack via Spellstrike)

Jason Bulmahn says here that, if he was understanding the question right, that you can deliver chill touch multiple times in one turn. This means chill touch still qualifies for use with Spellstrike even after whatever happens to it after the first delivery.

The black raven wrote:
Thus, you could cast Chill Touch and discharge it through spellstrike, attack with your free hand and discharge Chill Touch again as a melee touch attack

I assume you're using Spell Combat there, and casting, then making your melee attack(s), and then afterwards using your free attack from casting for the touch, yes?

The black raven wrote:
the next round cast Frostbite and discharge it with spellstrike and discharge Chill Touch for the third time using your free hand (again as a melee touch attack).

That only works with the interpretation of chill touch ceasing to be a touch spell. Also, that last touch would deliver both chill touch and a frostbite.


I'm going to toss this question onto this thread, instead of making a new one (let me know if I should)...

Do damage/effects from a touch spell delivered via Spell Strike count as damage with a weapon? Or are the weapon damage and spell damage treated as entirely separate things?

The corner case for this question is the combo of Spell Strike + Frostbite + Enforcer. Frostbite deals 1d6+lvl of non-lethal damage, and Enforcer triggers

Quote:
"Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon"
Per the Spell Strike description
Quote:
"If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell"

so both are clearly part of the same melee attack, but it's not clear whether damage from a spell effect can trigger the Enforcer condition.

I'm undecided whether this works or not, and hesitant to put it in a PFS build without some sort of clarification. Thematically it's quite nice, since you're literally causing your enemies to become "frozen with fear."


plustwobonus wrote:
Do damage/effects from a touch spell delivered via Spell Strike count as damage with a weapon? Or are the weapon damage and spell damage treated as entirely separate things?

I'm leaning towards separate.

The damage types stay distinct (IE: sword+shocking grasp deals some slashing and some electricity, not all slashing).

The weapon itself isn't really doing much, the source of the frost is the spell, or possibly the ability allowing it to work (Spellstrike), but it is only tangentially related to the weapon.

The "attack" deals normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. The attack is not the weapon. But the attack has to get it's 'normal damage' from somewhere.

The last one makes me think that maybe it should work. But I'm not sure. I absolutely wouldn't rely on it in PFS (or any game without clearing it first with the GM).

If you make a new thread I'll FAQ it.


Grick wrote:
If you make a new thread I'll FAQ it.

Have at it

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