RedDogMT wrote:I'm not undervaluing Orc Ferocity. Paizo valued Orc Ferocity to be worth Acute Darkvision and Skilled to be work Darkvision. I am using those 'values'.One level of wizard is equal to one level and fighter by that logic isn't it?
I guess that would depend on the levels that come before and after it.
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Looking through the other core races, all other examples of improved vision abilities specifically say they replace the original.
This is especially relevant for dwarves, who gain the same 90' darkvision, at the cost of darkvision and the addition of a save penalty against light based effects.
you could argue that this means the half-orc wording is an oversight and it should be like the others, or you could argue that the half-orc entry doesn't say 'replaces darkvision' deliberately.
Think of it this way - if it does replace darkvisoon, then a half-orc gets 90' darkvision at the cost of Orc Ferocity, while a dwarf gets it at the cost of a penalty to saves against light effects - a very small list.
I'd say the dwarf is getting a far better deal.
Minesight: Dwarves with this racial trait increase the range of their darkvision to 90 feet; however, they are automatically dazzled in bright light and take a –2 penalty on saving throws against effects with the light descriptor. This racial trait replaces darkvision.
Darkvision: Though uncommon, some groups of elves are born with darkvision, rather than low-light vision. In many cases this is taken as a sign of a drow in the elf's ancestry, and can lead to persecution within the elf's home community. Elves with this racial trait gain darkvision with a range of 60 feet, but also gain sensitivity to light and are dazzled in areas of bright light or within the radius of a daylight spell. This racial trait replaces low-light vision.
Darkvision: Some gnome strains have lived in the underground depths for so long they have given up on light entirely and gained darkvision with a range of 60 feet. This racial trait replaces low-light vision and keen senses.
Drow-Blooded: Some half-elves born of drow parents exhibit more drow traits than others—particularly many of the physical features of the drow—and have darkvision 60 feet and light blindness. This racial trait replaces the low-light vision racial trait.
|ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32|
I don't see how it's giving up something for nothing.
What you start with:
-60 ft. Darkvision
What you end up with:
-90 ft. Darkvision
-+1 skill per level
You gave up Ferocity (2 Feat equivalent) for +30 ft. Darkvision and +1 skill per level (2 Feat equivalent).
You end up with the same amount of stuff on any scale you wish to slice it.
The proper comparison is against a half-orc who has only taken Acute Darkvision.
He starts with:
-60 ft. Darkvision
What he ends up with:
-90 ft. Darkvision
So what is this guy giving up if he decides he wants an extra skill point each level? The answer is nothing. He can basically just take Skilled for free, and that is getting something for nothing. If the players doesn't have the system mastery to notice this little loophole in the racial ability descriptions they have basically screwed themselves out of a free skill point each level.
A strict RAW reading of the ability indicates that there is no reason to take Acute Darkvision without also taking Skilled, but this "combo" is not obviously spelled out in text. I have a very hard time believing that this is intentional.
|Titania, the Summer Queen|
Ok if the wording uses " gains" it can be added to something or be just added.if its added to something it should say what its added too.
Now if it used the word " increases" in place of gains, then it is clear that something is required before it can be increased. Apply this statement as you see fit. Or not at all.
The RAW allows it, but it's also clear developer clarification on RAI is required.
To be fair, its only clear that developer clarification on RAI is required for those who take issue with the RAW. The rules, as they are currently written could not be more clear... Some feel that it's over powered and must be a misprint.
|Pathfinder Design Team Official Rules Response|
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|Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge|