Elf was going to be the race of the character, but this is flexible... Basically, I am looking to do some TWF with a 2hw (eleven curve blade), and 1.5 str unarmed strike via dragon style. I'm thinking a 1-2 lvl dip in monk for the d6 dmg plus the ability to deliver full str as an "off hand" weapon.
Lore warden or two handed fighter was my first thought. But I could also do barbarian if I go martial artist monk. Other options could include paladin, but suffers a bit more from dipping.
Any suggestions are welcome.
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Remember if you're flurrying you only get 1xStr and can't use the Curveblade (barring dipping Cleric and going Crusaders Flurry with a deity that favours the Curveblade).
If you're dipping just for the damage it could be worth it i guess. You could still TWF but isn't the full STR tied to the FoB ability?
Wow... I think that someone fighting with "eleven curve blades" would probably want Multi-Weapon Fighting instead
How so?
* not flurry, TWF!
Wow... I think that someone fighting with "eleven curve blades" would probably want Multi-Weapon Fighting insteadHow so?
Becuase 11 is 9 more than 2.
So TWF with 2hw dmg is bad?
I was thinking about ECB for the high crit range and if I ever get enlarge or lead blades, then I am swinging 2d8. The improved unarmed strike entry specifically says that you always get full str behind it. Dragon style lets you apply 1.5 str on the first UAS in the round.
I thought it would be a cool fighting style combining the best of both worlds: the dmg of 2hw's with the multiple strikes from TWF.
Byrdology, note that your first post says "eleven" not "elven". Reread some of the posts with that in mind and things will make more sense :)
Anyway, I don't understand the rules you are using. How can you do two weapon fighting with a two handed weapon?
You would need at least 3 arms for that, no?
you can do it with a spiked armor for example. But I do not think he meant that.Anyway, I don't understand the rules you are using. How can you do two weapon fighting with a two handed weapon?
You would need at least 3 arms for that, no?
Unarmed strikes work too, but it's cheaper to enchant the spikes.
Ah... Eleven... Sorry, it's the auto correct spelling on my phone...
The idea is using a two handed weapon (elven curve blade) and unarmed strikes for two weapon fighting. Unarmed strikes can be any part of your body. Imagine swinging a 2hw and kicking and head-butting in conjunction. It would look pretty epic!
I don't believe unarmed strikes and manufactured weapons mesh that way (unless the weapon is available to use in a flurry like monk weapons are)... Once you start mixing armed attacks, unarmed attacks, and natural weapons things get wonky so I could be wrong.
That's what I was saying, it's mixing unarmed attacks with manufactured attacks in a way the rules don't support, as far as I know.
Well beside that, what is the best static damage class?
Greatsword. You always do 2D6, no matter who holds you.
Kidding aside, I like barbarian myself, but I don't know the numbers. Some are more situational than others.
Barbarian usually (unless he runs out of rage), fighter after that, paladin/cavalier when smiting/challenging beats them both, and the ranger against his favored enemy does more than the fighter.
Lots of classes will work well for what you're going after. They've all been mentioned already.
So I'm gonna do the crazy thing and suggest you go with whatever one fits the picture in your mind's eye best. ;)
I'm thinking that fighter is probly going to be the best way to overcome the penalties from TWF and power attack. Should I take my first weapon training for ECB or UAS?
Is there a way to retain the shield bonus from a buckler while wielding a 2hw?
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Your best bet is probably a few levels of Fighter for the feats and bonuses to attack, and then go ninja or rogue with the Scout archetype (or maybe vivisectionist alchemist). Sneak Attack is undoubtedly the best source of static damage for twf, though. (Smite and favored enemy can both come close, and improve attack as well as damage, but there's nothing like rolling an extra 5 or 10 d6 for every single attack you connect with.)
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
So if you take that dip in monk this is all green!
Do note that you are going to have two seperate attack types so certain feats like weapon focus would not work for both. Saying that I would put your focus on the Elven curved blade and only upgrade your unarmed attacks seperately.
Classes. There really is no "best" class, instead each has its better moments. Fighter. Does the most consistant damage, ie he is always 'on'. He doesn't peak like some other classes but be dosent have the valleys eather. Good if you have high stats. The two weapon warrior can get some neat tricks when using both weapons while the two handed fighter will do more damage with its main weapon.
Ranger. Does good damage agains his favored enemy but less otherwise then the fighter. Can ignore prereqs for his style feats so is good for lower point buys. The two weapon style can nab you TWF without the prereqs and two handed style can grant you power attack and such if you lack the str and instead focus on dex.
Barbarian. Grants you increased str and pounce witch is extremely good, but not a hole lot else for this build and has alignment issues with monk.
Alchemist. Only medium BAB progression but beastmorph/vissectionist is really good. Increased str and dex, pounce, fly, blindsense, darkvision, sent, sneak attack and can self buff.
I dunno about the cavalier.
Having a high crit range on two weapons with a high static bonus is still a better option than sneak attack (which is situational). Dual weilding kukris takes the fewest feats and offers the highest benefit than wonky builds.
A pouncing barbarian with a raging str of 30 at level 9 (assuming haste, a +4 belt, and a +2 weapon) will do an average of 109 damage a round assuming all attacks hit (Charging/hasted attack bonuses of +20/20/20/15/15). Oh, and they can add elements to their attacks or other cool rage powers.
A smiting paladin with a str of 26 with the same benefits (minus pounce, so he can't do it on a charge, but assuming a modest 16 charisma) does an average of 154 damage assuming all attacks hit (smiting/hasted attack bonus of +19/19/19/14/14). More against evil outsiders/undead/dragons. A cavalier does similar damage. Oh, and they can add weapon properties or extra static bonuses directly to their weapons.
The average damage on a rouges sneak attack if all 5 attacks hit is 87.5, and they usually have to be flanking for that. Even with a 26 str and power attack (which is high for a rogue) you're looking at a possible 155 damage average assuming all attacks hit, but their bonuses only add up to 14/14/14/9/9. That's a pretty big drop in hit percentage against CR9 creatures (almost all ACs are 21 - 25), and every missed hit is a -30 total damage or so, resulting in closer to 95 average damage (or worse). Oh, and they... um, I got nothing.
Most of the benefits from the warrior is given from their specializzation in one weapon, so if you plan on using differents weapon to TWF is not the optimal choice. Monk dip is not really reccomended, you get double slice free but you lose 1 BAB, so not worth it (i feat for +1 to hit is like weapon focus, a pretty damn good exchange). Unless you take the cheese to a new level with a master of many style and you add crane to the combo.
I'd say if you have 1 and half str on both weapon barb seems good, ranger and cavalier close second.
The best static damage classes:
1) Paladin (when smiting)
2) Ranger (fighting a favored enemy or all the time with Instant Enemy)
3) Fighter (with weapon training/weapon spec/greater spec)
4) Dawnflower Dervish bard (doubled, self-only Inspire Courage and Discordant Voice)
5) Barbarian (Flat out bigger Strength and full BAB)
6) Alchemist (Flat out bigger Strength without a full BAB)
7) Regular Bard (Normal Inspire Courage and Discordant Voice)
8) Inquisitor (Bane plus Judgement)
-I would love to use crane style, but I would need a free hand which kills the 1.5 str on my 2hw.
-I know it's better to use twin weapons while TWF, but this is just a thought exersize on how to get 1.5 str on both weapons while TWF.
-I think fighter is looking like my best bet for all the feats I'll need to keep both weapons close to par with each other.
-thanks for all the input! Maybe I'll throw this all together one day and see how it all plays out.
I think it's worth mentioning that if you want to have a 2-handed weapon in each hand, look at Dorn Dergar Master. The Dwarven Dorn Dergar is an exotic, 2h weapon with reach and a x3 crit multiplier. All dwarves are automatically proficient with it.
Now, this isn't a light weapon, so if you were dual-wielding them, you'd take a -4 penalty to TWF, instead of the usual -2. However, I think that if you had very good attack bonuses, buffs, (or well chosen Favored Enemies for rangers), then this weapon could be very effective, and super cool imho. I think this setup has a certain coolness factor. :)
TWF with two reach weapons that have d10 damage and x3 crit multiplier, then combine that with Lunge? Sign me up!
Ok, so I am now thinking that fighter (2hw) archetype is probly best. Two levels of MoMS to pick up dragon and snake styles. It will break down kinda like this.
1) fighter- dodge, weapon focus: nodachi
2) fighter- TWF
3) MoMS- dragon style, dragon ferocity
4) fighter- x2 str
5) MoMS- snake style, snake fang
6) weapon spec: nodachi
7) weapon focus: UAS
8) weapon spec: UAS
9) Imp TWF
10) double slice
11) combat reflexes
12) two weapon rend
With brawling armor and an AoMF I can use weapon training for heavy blades and have some pretty serious kick. I am sure there is a better way to move these feats around, or maybe better feats altogether.
I suggest any build for TWF would go ranger 6 unless you have god-like stats. This way you can get the three most important feats for it with out meeting the prerequisites, including the dex. Yes you will only get two feats from the class, but you can still ignore the prerequisites for all the feats you have access to at level 2 and 6, you just need to pay the feat to get it.
-Hexen
Best static damage class for a TWF build
Horizon Walker.
Obviously not a low level option, but by around level 16, you'll be doing ~ +30 to hit and damage with every attack against anyone you deem worth blowing a charge of the Instant Enemy wand on.
to OP: i'd say either 2H fighter (up dat curve blade damage), 2W warrior (reduce twf penalites, but twin blades is useless in this case), or weapon master fighter (hooray weapon training) AT with a 1-3 level dip in (MoMS)monk for dragon and whatever other style you want (panther's good for mobility and free hits, tiger works well with PA, snake is insane, crane style is actually a BAD option in this case since you need a free hand for it)
if 3 monk levels grab monastic legacy feat, if less than 3 then just grab your favorite style feats and enjoy the buff to saves.
look into a monk's robe for mad unarmed damage (8 monk base total + 1/2 your non monk levels), dueling gloves (which are particularly scary on weapon master iirc), the brawling armor enchant, etc.
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this is just a thought exersize on how to get 1.5 str on both weapons while TWF.
You've successfully made a character that accomplishes this goal. I think it's cool.
However, for those trying to turn this exercise into "optimizing" an actual character, it's just a given that it will have large weaknesses. That's just the cost of specializing and being awesome at one thing. The inherent conflict is that you need such high DEX to get the TWF feats for an effective TWF build, but the concept is very STR-oriented. To get decent use out of the 1.5 multiplied STR bonuses, you want a high STR, but need a high DEX too.
So I'd go human with the racial ability that trades out a feat for +2 in two attributes of your choice.
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 10
This is what I mean. A character with these stats will get 1 skill per fighter level, and 3 skills when you take monk levels. For style feats, this character would need 3 ranks in Acrobatics, and 3 ranks in Sense Motive. By level, it may look something like:
1) Perception(1)2) Perception(2)
3) Acrobatics(3), Perception(2)
4) Acrobatics(3), Perception(2), Sense Motive(1)
5) Acrobatics(3), Perception(3), Sense Motive(3)
So, this guy would be great at what he does... full attacks when he can get in melee with foes. He can also carry heavy things and break stuff. But his party will have to do everything else for him.
I think Byrdology has done an excellent job in this interesting (and pretty cool) thought experiment. He successfully found a way to do some pretty cool melee combat stuff, but I think his intent was simply to investigate a combat concept and see if it could be done well, rather than to optimize a character for an actual full adventure.
if he grabs the style feats as monk bonus feats he needs all of no skill points.
Elf was going to be the race of the character, but this is flexible... Basically, I am looking to do some TWF with a 2hw (eleven curve blade), and 1.5 str unarmed strike via dragon style. I'm thinking a 1-2 lvl dip in monk for the d6 dmg plus the ability to deliver full str as an "off hand" weapon.
Lore warden or two handed fighter was my first thought. But I could also do barbarian if I go martial artist monk. Other options could include paladin, but suffers a bit more from dipping.
Any suggestions are welcome.
The two best melee damage-dealing builds I've seen on this forum are here a Brawler build that uses two-weapon fighting rather than rely on Flurry of Blows, and here, a two-handed Weaponmaster build that has a lot of different offensive options.
if he grabs the style feats as monk bonus feats he needs all of no skill points.
No, he needs them for the initial Style feats, and uses the MOMS bonus feats to snag Snake Fang and Dragon Ferocity, ignoring prereqs on those feats only...
i wasnt paying attention at all--you're right. my deepest apologies.
Monastic legacy is pretty tasty. Guess I missed that one.
this is just a thought exersize on how to get 1.5 str on both weapons while TWF.You've successfully made a character that accomplishes this goal. I think it's cool.
However, for those trying to turn this exercise into "optimizing" an actual character, it's just a given that it will have large weaknesses. That's just the cost of specializing and being awesome at one thing. The inherent conflict is that you need such high DEX to get the TWF feats for an effective TWF build, but the concept is very STR-oriented. To get decent use out of the 1.5 multiplied STR bonuses, you want a high STR, but need a high DEX too.
So I'd go human with the racial ability that trades out a feat for +2 in two attributes of your choice.
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 10This is what I mean. A character with these stats will get 1 skill per fighter level, and 3 skills when you take monk levels. For style feats, this character would need 3 ranks in Acrobatics, and 3 ranks in Sense Motive. By level, it may look something like:
1) Perception(1)
2) Perception(2)
3) Acrobatics(3), Perception(2)
4) Acrobatics(3), Perception(2), Sense Motive(1)
5) Acrobatics(3), Perception(3), Sense Motive(3)So, this guy would be great at what he does... full attacks when he can get in melee with foes. He can also carry heavy things and break stuff. But his party will have to do everything else for him.
I think Byrdology has done an excellent job in this interesting (and pretty cool) thought experiment. He successfully found a way to do some pretty cool melee combat stuff, but I think his intent was simply to investigate a combat concept and see if it could be done well, rather than to optimize a character for an actual full adventure.
Why not just dump str (not into the gutter though) and pick up weapon finesse and an agile weapon?
Because it is a waste of 1.5 str while TWF.
Touché