Infernal Healing


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Grand Lodge

I heard from my FLGS that 'evil' descriptor spells, including infernal healing, were PFS illegal. I saw no hint of this in the play guide. Is it legal?

Liberty's Edge 4/5

It is. Go to the additional resource page and you will find it listed there as legal. Not sure it is spelled out or just included in "spells on pages so and so are legal.

5/5

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Also, for the record, in PFS play, casting an "evil" spell is not an evil act.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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My paladin will often offer her own Wand of CLW whenever a Magus tries to use his Wand of IH. She has often stated she would rather die a courageous death in battle than be drenched in evil for even a minute.

3/5

But what is dreching her in evil can stop a worse evil?

Dark Archive 4/5

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Finlanderboy wrote:
But what is dreching her in evil can stop a worse evil?

Some paladins believe in no compromises. That is not a code to be taken lightly, but I respect a character that is willing to accept death before dishonour.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Heck, I can see non-paladin PCs rejecting IH outright simply because their players didn't want their good guy characters tainting themselves. Some folks just want to play a good guy without to dip in the evil any, and would see death for their PCs preferable to compromising the vision they had for the character they wanted to play.

5/5

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Now if a character objects to infernal healing they are more than welcome to make the save against it when their ally casts the spell.

Interestingly even a Paladin of Iomedea can be healed by Infernal Healing if they are unconscious.

The Paladin tells the sorcerer that they despise evil outsiders and do not wish to be healed by such a vile means. Later on the Paladin drops. The sorcerer then pull out his/her wand and heals the Paladin. Because the Paladin is out he has no idea he is being healed by such a "despicable" spell or that there is even a save he could be making. Now when he comes to he may have some very strong choice words to say to the Sorcerer for not respecting his wishes.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

As the Paladin begins to regain consciousness, the guilty Socreror (High CHA) class turns to the 'Lucky 7' (dumpstat WIS) Paladin and just cries "It's a miracle! Iomedae be praised!" - Bluff saves the day!

3/5

Shifty wrote:
As the Paladin begins to regain consciousness, the guilty Socreror (High CHA) class turns to the 'Lucky 7' (dumpstat WIS) Paladin and just cries "It's a miracle! Iomedae be praised!" - Bluff saves the day!

except...

infernal healing wrote:
The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.

can't stop him from noticing the evil of the magic.

my stonelord gets an infernal healing wand made every time he gets to kill a devil. makes him feel warm and fuzzy to get healing from some twerp devil who he had to kill.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

"Oh no, thats just the residual blood of that creature you were fighting, here, lets clean up the gore and you can check again in a minute... that'll wash right out..."

1 minute later.

"See? all gone"

Assuming he even thinks to start looking for the Evil in the first place of course.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 *** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

So, quick question...
the reason that this only costs 750 (or 2PP) in a wand is because you can use 1 drop of devil blood or 1 dose of unholy water?

And, I would assume that the drop of devil blood is not an "expensive" material component (at least not in Cheliax!)

Just checking. This just didn't seem right, at first, to me; however, I didn't realize there were two possibilities for the choice of material components.

In some ways, this spell seems a little silly to me. Very similar to "Lesser Vigor" from 3.5, but with what seems to be to be both a silly material component, and a silly side effect. Really? A healing spell that temporarily turns you evil?

Sigh.

1/5

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
But what is dreching her in evil can stop a worse evil?
Some paladins believe in no compromises. That is not a code to be taken lightly, but I respect a character that is willing to accept death before dishonour.

It was reported that these same paladins were defeated 7-0 by the paladins whose credo is "the ends justify the means" as the later had plenty of reserves.


There are worse material compenents. Sillier and more rare that are somehow cost nothing. YMMV on that.

And yes, using the infernal healing gets messy sometimes. I carry a backup wand of CLW in case the player can't heal themselves.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

hmmm, you have to be careful if you use your infernal healing on a paladin after s/he has specifically told you not to. Some might consider that a form of PvP.

Grand Lodge 5/5

And some GMs may consider a Paladin being given an evil aura - for any length of time - as a reason to strip their Paladin powers and require an atonement.

Also, I think the Don't Be a Jerk rule covers PCs doing unwanted things to another PC for GMs who interpret the PvP rule very strictly.


Bob Jonquet wrote:
hmmm, you have to be careful if you use your infernal healing on a paladin after s/he has specifically told you not to. Some might consider that a form of PvP.

I totally agree with that. I've seen some players get pretty hurt over things like that.

Don Walker wrote:
And some GMs may consider a Paladin being given an evil aura - for any length of time - as a reason to strip their Paladin powers and require an atonement.

Thought there was a ruling otherwise? Seems a little over the top.

The Exchange 5/5

Don Walker wrote:

And some GMs may consider a Paladin being given an evil aura - for any length of time - as a reason to strip their Paladin powers and require an atonement.

Also, I think the Don't Be a Jerk rule covers PCs doing unwanted things to another PC for GMs who interpret the PvP rule very strictly.

yeap, it's right up there with serving a dish flavored with bacon to your jewish friends..

or where EXACTLY does baby oil come from?

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

I'd ask how it was that all these Paladins are so well acquainted with the spell itself? They must have all put ranks into Spellcraft and Know: Arcane.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Although my Paladin does have ranks in Spellcraft, you don't need them. Not only do you feel the evilness of the spell, a Paladin can detect evil at will.

I feel like my character would gladly pay for an atonement if someone zapped her with a Wand of IH while she was unconscious. And she'd be pissed.

The Exchange 5/5

Shifty wrote:
I'd ask how it was that all these Paladins are so well acquainted with the spell itself? They must have all put ranks into Spellcraft and Know: Arcane.

or perhaps checked for evil when someone had the spell cast on them... or perhaps read about it in the Paladin Quarterly, or a Pathfinder Chronicle or maybe even had some PC of "questionable moral fiber" gloatingly tell him about it.

.
Kind of like when a restaurant is using pork products in thier dishes and the local Synagogue tells thier friends at the Mosgue to avoid eating there.


Nefreet wrote:
I feel like my character would gladly pay for an atonement if someone zapped her with a Wand of IH while she was unconscious. And she'd be pissed.

I doubt the minute of evil feelings are enough to demand an attonement... Especially not if its healing you from below 0.

The Exchange 5/5

MrSin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I feel like my character would gladly pay for an atonement if someone zapped her with a Wand of IH while she was unconscious. And she'd be pissed.
I doubt the minute of evil feelings are enough to demand an attonement... Especially not if its healing you from below 0.

This I fear, is judge dependant. YMMV.


nosig wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I feel like my character would gladly pay for an atonement if someone zapped her with a Wand of IH while she was unconscious. And she'd be pissed.
I doubt the minute of evil feelings are enough to demand an attonement... Especially not if its healing you from below 0.
This I fear, is judge dependant. YMMV.

Again, I'm pretty sure it was ruled that infernal healing wouldn't change alignment or force a paladin to fall. That sounds like one mean judge, to make a paladin fall for being healed while dying and unconcious. YMMV I know, off topic enough as is.

Grand Lodge

Michael Brock's official rule was that evil spells are only actually an evil act if used to perform evil, at least so far as PFS is concerned.

4/5

Nuku wrote:
Michael Brock's official rule was that evil spells are only actually an evil act if used to perform evil, at least so far as PFS is concerned.

I believe that he said that they're evil acts, but they'll not cause involuntary alignment shifts in PFS.

Grand Lodge

Michael Brock wrote:

Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, as long as it doesn't violate any codes, tenents of faith, or other such issues.

Committing an evil act outside of casting the spell, such as using an evil spell to torture an innocent NPC for information or the like is an alignment infraction. Using infernal healing to heal party members is not an evil act.

I can't possibly define what every evil act could be. That is why I rely on GM discretion. But simply casting an evil descriptor spell is not an evil act in and of itself.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

Nefreet wrote:

Although my Paladin does have ranks in Spellcraft, you don't need them. Not only do you feel the evilness of the spell, a Paladin can detect evil at will.

I feel like my character would gladly pay for an atonement if someone zapped her with a Wand of IH while she was unconscious. And she'd be pissed.

No, you really don't feel the evilness, and why on earth would a Paladin start consciously start detecting evil when someone healed him?

Do you always stop and Detect Evil every time a spell is cast, especially a healing one? She wakes up from being unconscious, slowly regaining her health and her first action is 'DETECT EBIL!'...riiiight.

Didn't think so.

A lot of Metagaming going on.

Grand Lodge

Infernal healing does have a specific clause about this, Shifty.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

Still reckon the Paladin would have a hard time pinning it on the caster, and could easily be explained away with a bluff. Not really feeling the evilness when knocked out is what I'm suggesting :P

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern

This could go back and forth for a year or more, folks.

Long story short - the Paladin characters/players out there are entitled to their own opinions on the spell. The GMs out there are entitled to their own opinions on the spell and its effects on Paladins (and any other alignment-dependent characters).

I've heard a few really good-to-amazing arguments for Paladin accepting the spell with no complaint, or even ones with a dip into another class using Infernal Healing on themselves.

Expect Table Variation, YMMV.


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Mike Bramnik wrote:

This could go back and forth for a year or more, folks.

Long story short - the Paladin characters/players out there are entitled to their own opinions on the spell. The GMs out there are entitled to their own opinions on the spell and its effects on Paladins (and any other alignment-dependent characters).

I've heard a few really good-to-amazing arguments for Paladin accepting the spell with no complaint, or even ones with a dip into another class using Infernal Healing on themselves.

Expect Table Variation, YMMV.

There is the part where infernal healing doesn't make you evil and casting evil spells don't make you evil. If making paladins fall was that easy we'd have Evil enemies running around casting it on paladins to make them lose connection with their god and fall.

I've seen dozens of reasons to take it and to refuse. Gotta respect both. Also have to watch out for DMs willing to take the extreme.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Conventions—Gen Con

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MrSin wrote:
If making paladins fall was that easy we'd have Evil enemies running around casting it on paladins to make them lose connection with their god and fall.

Starts frantically writing a quest idea...

Shadow Lodge 1/5

My magus has it on hand for himself, willing party members, and emergencies. 'Emergencies' being told "No! Get that thing away from me!" And the guy (or gal) is bleeding out next to some dangerous foes. That's when the familiar delivers it.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

MrSin wrote:
I've seen dozens of reasons to take it and to refuse. Gotta respect both. Also have to watch out for DMs willing to take the extreme.

Pretty much this in the long run :)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Shifty wrote:
you really don't feel the evilness ... A lot of Metagaming going on.

Just FYI...

The actual text of Infernal Healing wrote:
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1. This ability cannot repair damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells or effects with the good descriptor. The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.

Spoiler:
I really dislike being called a metagamer.

.I respect that there are multiple points of view on this matter. Most of my characters are indifferent to Infernal Healing. My Tengu thinks it's "neat", while my Paladin loathes the idea of it. If I'm GMing, I leave it up to the players to deal with.

My comments about wanting to atone apply to my Paladin only. I wasn't suggesting making a Paladin "fall" just because they let someone cast this spell on them. I personally imagine that, to my Paladin, Infernal Healing would probably feel like washing her soul in gritty bath water and drying it in a toaster oven that hasn't had the crumbs cleaned out in five years (I have an active imagination).

Dark Archive 1/5

Well all I can say is I am glad my Sorc (who hasn't class dipped) can use and cast CLW freely (within reason given resources)

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

Nefreet wrote:
Just FYI...

You saw the spell being cast, and felt the Evil, all whilst unconscious?

Doing well! :)

If you were aware and awake, and THEN the Sorceror tapped you, and THEN you felt the Evil then maybe you could connect it up, however in the situations referenced above, the general conversation was on unconsious Paladins.

being unconscious is the first problem, likely lacking Know:Arcana is going to be the next one. I note you couldn't rely on Spellcraft either because you kinda have to witness the spell being cast too.

Grand Lodge 5/5

There is a certain level of meta-gaming that has to happen in order to play the game.

When one player uses their character to do something to another player's character that the second player has a problem with ... well, that is just plain not cool. If the first player persists, then they are being a jerk.

This is something that PFS has to be sensitive to (unlike a home game with a regular group where the GM controls every aspect of the game). PFS allows for complete strangers to come together to play a game with a GM who must follow the campaign rules. PFS players must respect boundaries even if the end result is a little meta-gaming.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

So whats your take on a Sorceror simply dropping an Inf Heal and handing the GM a note on the quiet saying what he has done?

I'm all for players having their schtick, but a knocked out Paladin is a drag on party resources, and his squeamishness is hindering the party... he's not up fighting, so he isn't pulling his weight.

If he doesn't know, then what's the problem? :)

Paladin wakes up, Sorceror pleads ignorance.

Grand Lodge 5/5

In PFS players have a right to know what is being done to their characters by other player characters.

Silver Crusade

Yeah, it should ultimately boil down to player consent. In PFS or otherwise.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

I wish we had a right to know what is being done to our charcters by the NPC's. Still smacks of Metagaming.

Silver Crusade

It's only metagaming in the same way "don't bring an anti-paladin into a good oriented party" is metagaming. It's the kind of grease the game needs for many groups.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

Because the two are directly comparable.

Silver Crusade

They are in that they're both expectations that players won't have to worry about unwanted PvP-ish behavior.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

How is healing a fellow party member PvP?

I call it PvP when your unconscious Paladin insists on laying on the ground and jeapordising the party because he refuses to be healed.

If your Paladin is obstructing the party and ruining its fun because he insists on being unconscious and non-productive, doesn't this breach the don't be a jerk rule?


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Shifty wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Just FYI...

You saw the spell being cast, and felt the Evil, all whilst unconscious?

Yeah and then you don't wake up while it is active right?

Anyway if player asks you to not do X and you do X regardless of reasoning it is still a mistake.

He asks you not to do X, you don't do X, end.

5/5

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Don Walker wrote:

And some GMs may consider a Paladin being given an evil aura - for any length of time - as a reason to strip their Paladin powers and require an atonement.

Also, I think the Don't Be a Jerk rule covers PCs doing unwanted things to another PC for GMs who interpret the PvP rule very strictly.

It shouldn't strip the Paladin of powers as long as they do not accept the spell voluntarily.

Now as far as the out of character meta goes I think this means that the Paladin player should not ask for the infernal healing right after they said they did not want it IC. I don't think it is PVP to heal an ally even if it is in a way their character would not like. As long as there is no permanent negative effect.

The Exchange 5/5

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people...
Using I.H. on someone who objects to it on religious grounds is like feeding pork to a Jew.
Don't do it. It's rude.

It's not cute, or cool, or even sneaky.

Doing it when they are un-awair and unable to object? that would make it even worse in my book. Right up there with doing anything else to them that they would object to "heck, she'll never know, and it'll do her some good!"

It's rude. If she's unable to object, it's past rude.

And the only thing I can do about it is only thing I have control over. If you are rude at a table with me - don't expect me to be at your table again. I try very hard never to play with rude people.

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