Goblin Squad Member
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This "class feature slot", How will it work with Multi-Class Characters?As I understand it, and some of this is my intuition rather than explicitly spelled out by the devs, when you Multi-Class you'll have access to multiple Class Features, but you'll only be able to equip one at a time.
When you equip a Class Feature, it doesn't stop you from using abilities from other Classes, it just makes the abilities from that Class a little better. The Dedication Bonus makes your Class Feature even more effective at improving your abilities if all of your equipped abilities are from that Class.
So, you'll (probably) still be able to cast a Spell when you have your Monk Class Feature equipped, you just won't cast it as effectively as you would if you had your Wizard Class Feature equipped.
This is also my understanding.
In EvE, they balance unlimited development by making you choose one ship to fly; essentially choosing your 'class' each time you leave a station. In PFO, I expect the Class Feature Slot to function similarly, though with more wiggle room since you can equip whichever abilities you like (even at reduced power, due to which Class Feature you are using).
Some abilities will also depend on a certain weapon type or keyword on a weapon, and I expect some abilities will be boosted by certain keywords contained on specific weapons but not require them. I expect armor keywords to function similarly for defensive and some offensive abilities.
To me, it seems that this gives GW a large number of variables to tweak in pursuit of balancing multiclassing. If they didn't gate ability power/usage based on keywords, weapons, equipment, and Class Feature Slots, balancing a skill versus all the possible multiclassing options would be a nightmare. This way, they can simply add a keyword requirement or additional damage to a skill based on keyword such that it does full damage when used single-class and less damage when used by a character that wishes to maximize damage on another class's abilities.
Would it be fair to say "class feature slot" dictates(what keywords the game will look for) and making that your main class.
FIGHTER/wizard or fighter/WIZARD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would it be fair to say "class feature slot" dictates(what keywords the game will look for) and making that your main class.
FIGHTER/wizard or fighter/WIZARD.
There may be a lot of assumptions that are tied to "main class" that may or may not be true, so it's hard to answer that way, but that's probably a reasonable way of looking at it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The keywords solution is a flexible, elegant solution to what otherwise can be a sticky problem. I developed a work order processing and workload management system that used keywords to identify who could do what job, what each job required, and who could manage what. Management of the whole system was pretty much reduced to moving keywords and keyword groups around as necessary. For PFO we know that characters, items, and spells will all have keywords associated with them, and that they will all interact to determine how effective actions and activities will be. The really nice thing about all this is that it's extremely extensible and fairly easy to manage and adjust(balance) if done correctly.
I really didn't understand Ryan's ideas about "keywords" for the longest time, but now that I'm starting to get a better feel for it, I am in awe.
The whole keyword thing mystifies me. I sort of figured they used them in PFTT but don't know for sure.
I mean take the keyword "sharp" is it variable, or constant? Meaning does it equate to say +2, or does its bonus depend on some other factor?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some schools share a lot of keywords, while others might not share many at all. As a result, an evoker might not be the best at necromancy spells (which don't share a ton of similarities), but he'd still do well when casting damaging Conjuration and Abjuration spells, which have more keyword overlap with Evocation spells.
Sounds fair... but based on Thassilonian magic, Abjuration is opposed by Evocation and Necromancy.
Nitpicking, yes, but it'd be nice to see consistency when it comes to published canon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmm... Maybe for sorcs.
Srocs get more damaging spells as a trade-off for less variety. The class feature slot could grant a item-ish thing (let's call it a Bloodstone) that could be put in the wondrous item slot (like a wizards spell book) and gives a set spells (chosen by player once, then stuck. At least for a while). However the Bloodstone gives spells cast using it the ability to look for elemental keywords.
Maybe. Needs thinking.
Maybe certain bloodlines (elemental, dratonic) make the Bloodstone look for certain keywords that match your element.
Keywords on spells?
I really didn't understand Ryan's ideas about "keywords" for the longest time, but now that I'm starting to get a better feel for it, I am in awe.The whole keyword thing mystifies me. I sort of figured they used them in PFTT but don't know for sure.
I mean take the keyword "sharp" is it variable, or constant? Meaning does it equate to say +2, or does its bonus depend on some other factor?
The way I saw keywords working is that items have keywords, while abilities look for keywords. As mentioned in the blog, the standard longsword will have the slashing keyword. You might have a slash ability, which would look for the slashing keyword on your equipped weapon when you use it. If your weapon has the keyword, the attack gets stronger. So you could use the slash ability with a spear but it would deal less damage than when you used it with the sword.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I mean take the keyword "sharp" is it variable, or constant? Meaning does it equate to say +2, or does its bonus depend on some other factor?
A large part of why the whole keyword thing is so brilliant is that the actual mechanical effect can be balanced over time, at various levels of granularity. That is, they can analyze the keyword independently, or in combination with any number of other keywords, to determine the final result, allowing them to improve the damage of a specific attack, an entire category of attacks, specific weapons, specific categories of weapons, and specific combinations of any of the above.
Hmmm... Maybe for sorcs.
One likely benefit Sorcs will have over Wizards is that they'll be able to re-cast the same spell without having to use a Refresh. When a Wizard casts a particular spell, it's greyed out. If he wants to cast it a 2nd time, he better have two copies in his spellbook. I could easily see Sorcerers not being subject to that restriction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I understand them, all the keyword does is define the function or capability of an object, be it character, item, spell, etc, similar to the weapon damage types, DR, or spell/creature categorization (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning, fire, cold, sonic, mind-affecting, humanoid, elf, etc) in PFTT.
Typically, keywords are paired, so that if object a and object b have keyword x, then the effects associated with such a match are processed. Those effects are widely variable and are specific to each object or object family (depending on how inheritance and polymorphism are utilized). The system can also be set up so that the keyword matching function itself is a simple array intersection, a cheap, rapid check in most languages.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One likely benefit Sorcs will have over Wizards is that they'll be able to re-cast the same spell without having to use a Refresh.
Yes, if you put multiple Fireballs in the same book, you can use that many per Refresh.
I take this to mean that a spellbook with 6 fireball spells, one in each of the six spots, a wizard can cast 6 fireball before a refreash. This also means that the wizard can't cast any other spell until he swaps spellbooks.
If I had to guess, it may be possible to have a "bloodstone" (thanks @Golnor) with six spells that the sorcerer can cast many times without refresh. As Stephen said eairlier in the same post (emphasis is mine):
Refresh feats are the most likely of any activated feat to differ in their exact mechanism from feat to feat. Some Refresh feats will only work once per Refresh, some can be used a fixed number of times per Refresh for full effect, some can be used repeatedly but have worse and worse effects until you Refresh, etc.
An advanced sorcerer may actually get multipul "bloodstones". They may even have to be crafted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Harad Navar, it's not clear to me what point you're making in response to what you quoted from me, especially given that my quote continues:
When a Wizard casts a particular spell, it's greyed out. If he wants to cast it a 2nd time, he better have two copies in his spellbook. I could easily see Sorcerers not being subject to that restriction.
To explain my semi-prediction a little bit more, I wouldn't be surprised if Sorcerers get more than 6 Spell Slots, and don't have their spells greyed out after they're cast.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An advanced sorcerer may actually get multiple "bloodstones". They may even have to be crafted.
I hope that they don't have to be crafted. One advantage that sorcerers always had over wizards is the fact that they need nothing to cast spells. I was thinking the Bloodstone would just be a manifestation of the sorcerer's power, and would stay with him at all times. If he died, it would just reform with his body when he revived. It being an item just makes it easier to compare to wizard style casting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really didn't understand Ryan's ideas about "keywords" for the longest time, but now that I'm starting to get a better feel for it, I am in awe.The whole keyword thing mystifies me. I sort of figured they used them in PFTT but don't know for sure.
I mean take the keyword "sharp" is it variable, or constant? Meaning does it equate to say +2, or does its bonus depend on some other factor?
From the blog:
For weapons, these keywords are activated by individual attacks. The player's first slash attack for the longsword may only look for the "Slashing" keyword, but as it is upgraded, it gains further keywords common to longswords. For each keyword shared by the attack and the wielded weapon, the attack treats the weapon's Base Damage as higher (+5 for most keywords, +20 for "Masterwork" and for other high-Tier keywords)...
[snip]
...Some creatures may have an additional, final damage multiplier that applies unless the attacking weapon has a specific keyword (Silver for lycanthropes, Adamantine for golems, Bludgeoning for skeletons, etc.), reducing the final damage. This is the one time a better weapon is useful to players without sufficient attacks to use all the keywords: a Silver sword is still useful to a new player fighting werewolves. Players very rarely benefit from such vulnerability-based defenses.
From the example, it seems it is a constant +X Base Damage. It does say "for most keywords," however.
They could have made the choice to make the magnitude of a keyword's effect variable dependent on the ability, though that would be more complicated. Maybe we'll see that later on down the road for balancing or to allow for more generic multiclass attacks.
I mean take the keyword "sharp" is it variable, or constant? Meaning does it equate to say +2, or does its bonus depend on some other factor?A large part of why the whole keyword thing is so brilliant is that the actual mechanical effect can be balanced over time, at various levels of granularity. That is, they can analyze the keyword independently, or in combination with any number of other keywords, to determine the final result, allowing them to improve the damage of a specific attack, an entire category of attacks, specific weapons, specific categories of weapons, and specific combinations of any of the above.
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I thought that might be the case. It lets them put off defining what the keywords do until they have combat fleshed out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure I understand that keywords stuff. For both magical or non-magical attacks I'm confuse about this concept.
I think it's only really going to make sense to a lot of people when they see it in action. I think I see a lot of versatility on it, but I might be miles off from how it's actually going to work.
Darned oak pollen.
My sympathies. I've been suffering lately, myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The spell research that wizards will have to do, seems to be in line (at least thematically) with their pen and paper counterparts. Which makes me wonder if the rest of the classes will get theirs in a related way.
Wizard: At last! After constant poring over various tomes, I finally have my new spell!
Cleric: One spell? I just got about two dozen!
Wizard: (Shocked) How? You haven't even so much as picked up a book in weeks!
Cleric: I just asked my God.
Wizard: !!!!!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I mean take the keyword "sharp" is it variable, or constant? Meaning does it equate to say +2, or does its bonus depend on some other factor?A large part of why the whole keyword thing is so brilliant is that the actual mechanical effect can be balanced over time, at various levels of granularity. That is, they can analyze the keyword independently, or in combination with any number of other keywords, to determine the final result, allowing them to improve the damage of a specific attack, an entire category of attacks, specific weapons, specific categories of weapons, and specific combinations of any of the above.
Hmmm... Maybe for sorcs.One likely benefit Sorcs will have over Wizards is that they'll be able to re-cast the same spell without having to use a Refresh. When a Wizard casts a particular spell, it's greyed out. If he wants to cast it a 2nd time, he better have two copies in his spellbook. I could easily see Sorcerers not being subject to that restriction.
Considering Sorcs as less variable blasters, I could see them instead getting sort of 'supped up' cantrips, with less spells or less refresh. So, those low level magic missiles or firebolts are more deadly from a sorc, but they simply don't have access to other spells (or as many). Perhaps they get a wonderous item (like the bloodstone) that takes up a slot (so they can't slot a spellbook), and that increases damage/effect of cantrips and/or removes their component cost (which would fit with eschew components.
As for the keywords, from what I'm understanding is that they will be on a) the player via feats, an ability, and an item. So, what I imagine is whenever a player attempts to preform an action, the game checks the following:
player feats -- ability cast -- item
So, you may have the following setup
Feat (pyromancer) -- Fireball -- Staff of Flame
now, each of those has the keyword fire. One of them looks for the keyword, and assigns bonuses for each source that has it.
Does that sound right?
@Harad Navar, it's not clear to me what point you're making in response to what you quoted from meYour right, I failed to take your comment in context. Darned oak pollen.
Is that like green corn? :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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Finally, a brief status update: The team is working hard toward their April 15 goal to deliver the first major milestone. We are starting to see systems come together for testing purposes, and it's exciting! Yesterday I ran a Macintosh build of the client on my Mac Mini, which was very cool. The team is implementing a variety of basic systems for this milestone, including some monster spawn sites, chat, a basic combat system, and lots of tests of the graphics pipelines, shaders, character models, and more.
So we'll possible see/hear more of this, the subdequent Wednesday, if hit on time?!
I'm (idly) curious (so ignore as necessary), to add to the above targets, concerning how the server infrastructure will work. One of the key points about BigWorlds is there avoidance of peer-to-peer and using a more "secure" system (and obviously high numbers of concurrent players on their server is possible) and hence scaling everything up more rapidly in development...
In fact Camelot Unchained have a little video on their intentions for core game design being "Mass combat" of interest:
First, to make something clear: We’re not going doing everything completely from scratch from the ground up! That’s would be, to put it mildly, suicidal. We’re using someone else’s physics engine. We’re using huge chunks of some very familiar open source for our UI. We’re using some industry-standard networking that allow us to run some well-known programs as part of our stack. We’re still evaluating our audio middleware, but we’re definitely using middleware.
So what are the parts that we need to do ourselves? Basically, anything that involves scaling up to a whole lot of players at once. There are a lot of engines out there that can do a great job drawing around 100 characters at once, but then they start to lag. I’ve worked with a bunch of engines and/or middleware pieces, and there’s a common reason for that limit. They’re general-purpose tech. They have a lot of flexibility in what you can do with those 100 characters. The trouble is that every bit of flexibility has a tradeoff. In programming, especially optimized game engine programming, building in flexibility adds a cost in performance. There’s a cost to figuring out what you don’t want to do. There’s a cost to every polymorphic virtual function call just to figure out that “no, we don’t need this thing on this character at this time”. There’s a cost to generic data structures that can represent any custom possibility.
For games with 50-100 characters, that’s the right tradeoff. You can spend that time. Flexibility to do what you need, right out of the box, is worth a millisecond or two every frame. But what happens when you multiply that by 10? We’re not going for 50-100 characters in this game; we want to be EPIC. That was something we struggled with in Warhammer Online [edit: licensed Gamebryo Engine], where we inherited a renderering system and licensed someone else’s animation system and used a completely stock effects system. They all had great artist-friendly tools to bring whatever vision you had into the game, but by the time you got 200 characters going at once, the total overhead meant the game wasn’t running nearly as well as I would have liked.
So from my experience with Warhammer Online, it's definitely a hugely important area for MMOs to get right!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Considering Sorcs as less variable blasters, I could see them instead getting sort of 'supped up' cantrips, with less spells or less refresh. So, those low level magic missiles or firebolts are more deadly from a sorc, but they simply don't have access to other spells (or as many). Perhaps they get a wonderous item (like the bloodstone) that takes up a slot (so they can't slot a spellbook), and that increases damage/effect of cantrips and/or removes their component cost (which would fit with eschew components.
As for the keywords, from what I'm understanding is that they will be on a) the player via feats, an ability, and an item. So, what I imagine is whenever a player attempts to preform an action, the game checks the following:
player feats -- ability cast -- item
So, you may have the following setup
Feat (pyromancer) -- Fireball -- Staff of Flame
now, each of those has the keyword fire. One of them looks for the keyword, and assigns bonuses for each source that has it.
Does that sound right?
As I understand it the game would check for how many keywords that would apply to the attack (in this case Fireball) and adds a bonus for each keyword that applies (+5 for "fire" plus any others that could apply: power, radius (seeing it's an AoE spell), etc).
I'm not sure about the feat (i don't think they have talked about feats yet, but I could be mistaken).|
Goblin Squad Member
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Great blog, I'm actually looking forward to trying out a wizard (or other spellcaster) :)
The "Class Feature" slot mentioned in the blog is intriguing. Can you elaborate a bit about what the options might be for other classes besides Wizards/Sorcerors?
An advanced sorcerer may actually get multiple "bloodstones". They may even have to be crafted.I hope that they don't have to be crafted. One advantage that sorcerers always had over wizards is the fact that they need nothing to cast spells. I was thinking the Bloodstone would just be a manifestation of the sorcerer's power, and would stay with him at all times. If he died, it would just reform with his body when he revived. It being an item just makes it easier to compare to wizard style casting.
Just like Monks will require some kind of crafted "weapon replacement" item to be able to use their unarmed attacks on par with other melee combatants, I'm sure that Sorcerers (and other casters) will need to have some kind of crafted "spellbook replacement" to be on the same gear-requirement level as wizards. It's for economy balancing purposes and to eliminate "fighting naked" as a viable tactic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great blog, I'm actually looking forward to trying out a wizard (or other spellcaster) :)
The "Class Feature" slot mentioned in the blog is intriguing. Can you elaborate a bit about what the options might be for other classes besides Wizards/Sorcerors?
I believe it was mentioned that things like a druid's pet or a monk's fast movement might go in these slots.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stephen, how will spells like commune, contact other plane, and wish work out?Odds are good they won't.
I could see wish being in game, but limited to matching the effect of any other spell. It would have very expensive costs to cast but would let someone powerful enough to cast it access to spells they would never other be able to cast. In most cases it probably wouldn't be worth it, but there are times when having a tool that flexible and powerful on hand could mean the difference between winning and losing a war.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could see wish being in game, but limited to matching the effect of any other spell. It would have very expensive costs to cast but would let someone powerful enough to cast it access to spells they would never other be able to cast. In most cases it probably wouldn't be worth it, but there are times when having a tool that flexible and powerful on hand could mean the difference between winning and losing a war.
Sounds like an interface nightmare - 3 second cast time, and 30 seconds sifting through the list of all spells to pick the one you want ;)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I could see wish being in game, but limited to matching the effect of any other spell. It would have very expensive costs to cast but would let someone powerful enough to cast it access to spells they would never other be able to cast. In most cases it probably wouldn't be worth it, but there are times when having a tool that flexible and powerful on hand could mean the difference between winning and losing a war.Stephen, how will spells like commune, contact other plane, and wish work out?Odds are good they won't.
I think the expected result of having that would be for top wizards to have nothing but Wish prepared. Perhaps the analogous behavior of Shadow Evocation can be informative: how many spell books are made that contain evocation spells instead of SE when both options are available?
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Goblin Squad Member
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With a 25,000 gold diamond cost per cast, it isn't cost effective to use wish in exclusion of other spells.
Also worth pointing out... you can't exclusively prepare 9th level spells. You only get a few of those, then your limited 8th, then your limited 7th etc...
Greater question of course, what's a rational interface for a spell that lets you chose another spell. IE it isn't particualrly effective in combat to have to flip between a list of 50+ spells to find the one you need. (and yes I'm more than aware there's waay more than 50 spells in PFRPG, but I certainly immagine there being less in PFO than the several hundred in the TTRPG, at least for the first year or so
type in the name of the desired spell, using autocomplete for even more speed? have pre-selected favorites presented up front? if the casting time is a bit longer anyways, you can be selecting the spell during that time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You have to craft your spell books from all those you have access to in the off hours, don't you? Those are the spell books you can equip in a slot and its spells fill your action bar.
I really doubt there will be a spell that calls any other spell at will, even if it is only once a day.
you could also be pre-selecting the spell you want to emulate with wish while a previous action is still completing, before you even start to cast wish...
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The interface issue is separate from the design issue; I think the interface problems are hard but possible to work out, but that the design flaws of translating wish from PnP rules are prohibitive.
Reasonable people can and probably will disagree with me on all three points.